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Sam, how can you say you are an independent? sm

Posted By: oldtimer on 2008-09-13
In Reply to: Look...Obama has 300...count them... - sam

From your posts it appears you are a staunch republican. You know the saying, if it walks and quacks like a duck, Quack, Quack!


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I am independent....independent of either party.
I am registered with neither. And I am not really interested in your interpretation of what a Republican is or is not.

I was talking about Obama's stand as an Illinois state senator. Since I do not live in Illinois and was not one of his constituents that rather rude indictment of what I would or would not do is moot. Had I been a resident of Illinois you can bet your sweet bippy there would have been plenty of senator/representative contact.

Not voting for Obama DOES give me a clear conscience. Whatever calamity he wreaks, it will not be because I put him in charge. If he gets his way we will become a socialist state. That is something I do NOT want to be a part of. PERIOD.
I too am an independent
In independent to me means not belonging to either party. You can be an independent and fervently support one candidate over the other. It means finding the better of the worst and not buying into the party line. I think people need to start comparing Obama's expereince with McCain's experience. If you want to compare Palin with anyone you need to compare her with the opposite parties VP candidate. But people are comparing Obama to Palin because there is no way they can win if they compare him to McCain. I am an independent, but the more I read, the more I listen to all the networks, the more I hear Palin's family getting "politically gang raped" the more I want to know why and the less I trust the liberals. I am an independent. Years ago I supported Bill Clinton til the end, I didn't support either Gore or Bush and the next term I didn't support either Kerry or Bush. Now I support McCain. That is because I can stand back and look at what both McCain & Obama have done. How they have voted in the senate, what they have done with their careers, how they want to lead the country, etc. and I can view it all with an open mind. That makes me and independent.
I am an independent with....
conservative values and some liberal ideas. Extremest? Don't know what that means. Never been called an extremest. When I hear that I keep thinking about some person who ties themself to a tree so it won't be cut down, but if it means I'm open to anything and will listen to all viewpoints and think on my own then yes that I am and glad to be one.

There's a lot I don't like that the republicans have done, but so much more I don't like that the democrats have done. However, what's worse is I don't like what the media and some of the posters on this board have come to. It is unbearable and they just pick and pick about absolutely nothing and spew lies and because of them I don't think I would ever vote for Obama.

As for Ms. Couric? She is a complete and utter moronian. No she is not running for president. She is not even qualified to give a decent interview and be respective of the people she interviews. If she thought Kissinger said that they she didn't do her research and should be the last person to interview anyone. She should go back to the morning show and gossip. She is a far left liberal and her condescending attitute exuberates. She is never that disrepectful to the democrats that she interviews. The media is so one-sided (on both sides - I'm not excluding anyone from blame), but at least I have the fortitude to listen to both sides and decide for myself who I like better.

I made one comment and you think I'm going to vote for McCain? Oh, boy do you have that one wrong. I have mixed feelings about the debate and I thought Obama did well on certain issues and I thought McCain did well on other issues. I hear the liberal media trashing McCain and for what (the way he looked, because he wasn't wearing a flag pin?) The liberals are too interested in "looks" they ignore the issues. I close my eyes and listen to each candidate, that way I don't see if they look to the right when the should look to the left, smile at an inapproate moment or any of that utter nonsense each accuses the other of.

I'll tell you I do not like the democrats proposal to the bail out. They want to give a free pass to the people who created the mess and have the average working american pay for it. Maybe seeing as you are so "for" this, you can supply your address and they can bill you the $10,500 it will cost each family and you can pay my share cos I don't have that kind of money!

As for the debate, I understood Obama more on what he was saying. McCain's answers were too complicated and left me wondering what he was talking about. However, it does not mean I liked what Obama was saying. As for foreign policy, sorry but taking a vacation in a foreign country doesn't qualify you as being knowledgeable in foreign policies.

McCain stated perfectly well and it's on record that he voted against a lot of what Bush was proposing. To say its going to be more of the same is a scare tactic and lie and you are just going along with the party line.

I hate Rush Limbaugh! I think he's a biggoted pig who can't listen to the truth if it stood in front of his face, and he puts down anyone who doesn't agree with him. At the same time I can't stand Sean Hannity, Alan Colmes, Mike Savage, Ray Talafero, Keith Oberman, Rachel Maddow (well she's actually not too bad) or any other right or left wing slime-bag who doesn't look at the whole picture with open eyes and trashes one side with false information while propping up their side with inflated opinions.

I do have to admit - Obama does seem to be on the side of the average americans, but cripes....look at his voting record. Sure, anyone can say their going to do this and that for you, but look at what they have done in the past, how they have voted, etc.

Here are my likes and dislikes -
What I like about Obama - He seems to have fresh ideas (which we can use right now). He's a very eloquent speaker, nice looking, nice looking family. When he says he cares about you I believe it. If he becomes president I can deal with that. I'm not against him, just people need to know what are his plans and he needs to stop lying to us. When he lies about one thing what else is he lying about. And he never said he would cut out unnecessary things that we don't need. So that tells me he's going to have all these programs and we will end up paying for them just like when Clinton was in.

What I don't like - I don't trust that he will do all the things he promises. We will be taxed to the hilt to pay for all the programs that we will not benefit from. While I like that he is willing to talk to our enemies I don't think he's knowledgeable enough about foreign policies, etc.

While I like that he's knowledgable about the economy I don't like his solutions for how to fix it (it screws us while keeping his rich friends rich!)

What I like about John McCain - He doesn't vote straight republican. He is in the middle. His comment about Obama being so far to the left he couldn't reach over was stup!d. To call someone left or right is just a gimmick. It means nothing (at least to me). I like and feel safe with McCain's knowlege of foreign policies. I feel that McCain will fight for the Americans so we don't end up paying for congresses mistakes. To say that if McCain gets in only the rich will get richer because its the same exact thing if Obama gets in there. Obama is rich and surrounds himself with the rich and those 1% rich they are always talking about with the republicans, well they have their 1% richest friends too. We saw it when Clinton was in office.

What I don't like about McCain is I wish he was younger (although Biden is around the same age). I wish he had a little more color (his skin is very white). I wish he would talk in simpler terms I could understand, and I wish he would stop saying "my friends" in every other sentance.

All in all I believe presidents are just talking heads. They surround themselves with the people who make the decisions. They don't think on their own. They carry out their orders from their superiors.

As for "big government getting cutbacks under Bush". Big government was getting cutbacks under Clinton. This is not anything new and not prone to one party or the other. However Clinton's legacy is that we saw NAFTA and the beginning of our jobs being shipped overseas.

As for talking about Obama and Palin's inexperience. They are both inexperienced. But I also remember...so was John Adams, George Washington, and all the other leaders in the beginning. The difference for me is that Obama is running for President. Palin is only running for VP. And I trust the people that McCain will surround himself with more than the people that Obama will surround himself with.

So because I bring up that I heard Kissinger interviewed and he said that he never said he would sit down and talk to enemies without preconditions you make an assumption that I'm an extremist and conservative. If I heard on the news that something McCain said was a lie you would probably be cheering me on. You just don't like when your candidate does something wrong and points it out.

I think you should read a post and keep your hatred to yourself, and who is Henry?

I am independent and a free thinker and I am proud of it!
I am independent as well and see what happens
!!
I am an independent. s/m
I lean left sometimes, yes.  Sometimes I lean far right.  I personally do not believe in abortion and I believe homosexuality is a sin and a choice people make.  That's pretty right, isn't it?
My take......from an independent
When you factor in ALL the illegals that should NOT be voting that were voting and then factor in ALL the pushed in fraudulent voters who didn't even know who Obama's running mate was (they thought it WAS Palin), then it's no surprise Obama won. After all, he did promise all "illegals" they could get a drivers license and all moochers they could get free money, so gee, what motivation! A no-brainer!!

Factor in the hard working folks who were voting out of shear fear of the economy, the women who were afraid they wouldn't have the "right" to murder an unborn child, and you have yourself a president, for good or for bad.

Flame all you want....the truth usually does incite.

I still say Ron Paul would have been much better for this country. Much smaller government, no IRS, close our borders against illegals....the list goes on and on.
I'm independent
nm
Independent?
It does not sound like you (sm) are an Independent.  I don't see anything but praise for Obama and hate for Republicans and Bush.  Where are your posts supporting anything conservative?
I am independent as well, which is why
I don't fall for all this garbage going on!! Where did you get off with the Palestinian people? We weren't talking about the Palestinian people... if you wanna do that, then start a thread on that! And, somehow, I doubt seriously you know better than me! HOW POMPOUS!

I am definitely not confused! If Obama wants to stay out of Iranian problems, then he should stay out of everything else as well.... he can't simply pick and choose when it's a Muslim country involved, which is exactly what he does.
You certainly are no independent
You are a staunch democrat through and through. You should not be so ashamed of it that you won't admit it.

Just because you know a Patrick Henry quote doesn't make you an independent.
My view as an independent.
I don't see Michele as hard, negative or loud. I see her as passionate and a go-getter. I have seen her speak at different things and have always enjoyed her.

Cindy I see as not weak, but just more quiet. I wouldn't say she was weak though.

Maybe this has something to do with their age differences, different generations?
Independent candidates have to
have at least 15% in opinion polls in order to participate in the presidential debates.  Right now....the only candidates eligible to participate in the debate are, of course, McCain and Obama.  To me....that says that no independent has enough backing to do any good except for take votes from the other two.  There is nothing wrong with voting for an independent though.  If you feel Ron Paul is a better candidate, you have the right to vote for him.  However, some say it would be throwing your vote away since the likelihood of him actually win is slim.  You never know though.  Do what you feel is best and go with your gut.  If you truly believe in Ron Paul, vote for him.  No one can knock you for that.
INDEPENDENT PARTY
The independent party has voted that they will back McCain.  They have NO votes to back Obama whatsoever!!!!
which independent party?
Which one? There are a couple, at least:
The American Independent Party
The Independent American Party
Independence Party of America

I thought being an "independent" meant you didn't belong to any party...
Okay, but for the Independent Party, do
xx
Well, I am independent, but would understand the
nm
Sorry, but I am independent. As far as hatred,
nm
I am independent, but have seen just the opposite
nm
I make less than that....and I am an independent....
voting Republican this time. Obama is a socialist and I do not agree with where he wants to take this country. Has absolutely nothing to do with his color. I would not vote for a white socialist, a Hispanic socialist, an Asian socialist, a polka-dotted socialist or a 3-eyed wombat socialist.
Independent for McCain
Okay, now I have to say I would have done the same thing in Obama's case. Those newspapers were toxic to his campaign. He's had trouble with them many times in the past--bias.

As far as whether he's African American or not, who cares? The only one who's going to fight that one is a racist, and I could care less to hear their sorry posts.

Newflash: BOTH of them are being caught in lies. That's why this election was so difficult for me. All politicians lie--meaning they make promises maybe with the right intentions, but they just don't keep them. You have to remember congress is in the equation here.

His father was African American. Therefore, he has every right to call himself such.

I've read about McCain losing his temper a time or two. Don't forget these two candidates are still human.
I'm glad to know Sam is an independent
I would  have sworn she was a "rabid" Republican.  LOL 
I'm no concerned about the GOP..I'm an independent...

the sorry's will be from O when he can't fulfill his many promises to his starry eyed followers who elected him. Pelosi herself has already said that many of the things they want to do won't get done and he hasn't even been sworn in yet.


Ditto. I am with you. --and independent too.
nm
Haters? I am independent, but have seen
nm
Sorry, I'm independent.......thus, the reason I think
I do find it hilarious that you immediately believe that ANYONE who objects to Obama's garbage is a republican. Matter of fact, I do know lots of dems that despise him for obvious reasons. What I do see are those like yourself, who wants government to think for them, believing that everyone MUST be into Fox or whatever. If I want to know what's going on for real, your TV won't do it for you, especially the liberal news station.

Speaking of looking around, unfortunately I see a complete debauchal of our constitution and our freedoms. I don't let one group do my thinking for me as you obviously do, which is why I don't care if it's republican or democrat, as long as they tax me, dictate my state rights, impose their garbage on my life, they are no better than scum and have no loyalty to our constitution. Unlike you, I detest stinch......
To clarify...I'm an independent who

leans conservative.  I don't care for either far left or far right.  I think that there are nut jobs in both extremes.


There are many things that run through my head when I think of President Obama.  To me, Obama is too far left for my taste. 


Some things that we should do right away is get the heck out of the middle east.  Use our troops in rotation to guard our border with Mexico.  Honestly, if we would keep our nose out of the middle east's business, maybe they would just keep fighting amongst themselves and we would have less to worry about.  I know that sounds horrible, but there has been fighting in that region since the beginning of time.  No amount of money we spend is going to change that.  We need to worry more about our problems at home including illegal immigrants.  They are costing us WAY too much money per year.


I do not want big government.  I do not feel that government should have to bail us out.  I believe that government created this problem allowing bad loans to be given out to people who couldn't afford to pay them.  However, I feel that these "programs" that Obama wants to enforce really won't help the middle class he professes to be looking out for.  Bigger government and more government programs does nothing more than promote and reward irresponsibility and laziness.  Our coutry cannot afford to continually bail banks, companies, and people out.  We have no money.  China won't even help us out any more....not that I really like the idea of getting money from China...but you get my point.


What I want is for government to stop handing out and stop spending money it doesn't have.  Get rid of our tax code and have a flat tax for everyone.  You pay more based on the more you earn.  That way it closes loopholes for crooks so they don't have to pay their taxes or they "make a mistake" and don't pay their taxes. 


I'm tired of packages filled with pork and I'm pointing fingers at both dems and pubs on this one as both parties are guilty.  Get rid of the pork and the pet projects. 


The idea of Obama wanting to do away with secret ballots in union votes....I totally disagree with.  Why shouldn't they continue to be secret?  Making that information known just gives unions the chance to bully people and that isn't looking out for employees like the unions claim to do.....even though it is proven that unionized states show less production and less job growth than states without unions. 


Bigger government also scares me because obviously politicians are too crooked....how can we trust them to run everything in this country. 


We also need to reform welfare.  I was truly upset when I heard Obama wanted to get rid of the reform that Clinton had done on welfare.  We need some regulations and limitations to our welfare system. 


I do not have much hope in change.  So far all I see are the same old cronies that were in Washington before.  We have too many crooked politicians and too many people giving money to them in order to get them elected so they have a puppet in Washington to do their bidding.


I'm not an independent and I feel the same way.
I'm a registered republican, but I've voted democrat many times (Clinton twice, Zack Space twice, etc).

But I am also sick and tired of both parties with the way they keep vilifying each other. You don't need to be a democrat or a republican or an independent or a libertarian to just be fed up with Washington right now.
I'm not an independent and I feel the same way.
I'm a registered republican, but I've voted democrat many times (Clinton twice, Zack Space twice, etc).

But I am also sick and tired of both parties with the way they keep vilifying each other. You don't need to be a democrat or a republican or an independent or a libertarian to just be fed up with Washington right now.
Better independent than letting others do the
--
Please, JTBB. I am an independent, and all you
nm
I've ALWAYS BEEN AN INDEPENDENT....
unlike dems and republicans, i would rather think for myself.... you should try it sometime!!!
Individual independent investigation
I agree it is important to look at raw facts and draw conclusions for yourself. So much of what we see and hear out of the mainstream media is slanted to one side or the other. I believe it is very important for one to get info from independent sources in order to draw enlightened conclusions. I think it's naive at best to trust solely the mainstream media and even partisan sources exclusively for your news. Things can be spun so many different ways. This is one area where we agree.
Good post, Independent! nm
nm
I am independent and considered Obama, but
nm
and Democrats are independent thinkers?
pull the other leg. lol.
A Repub in Independent's clothing. You know
OINK
I never said as an independent I looked objectively....
at both sides. I am an "independent" meaning independent of the major parties. You have to register as something to vote in this country and I chose Independent. As far as objective...none of us are objective. All of us have taken a stand on one side or the other. What I do is present the other side of things posted here on the Dem side. Instead of refuting the posts, generally I just get attacked. That is generally what happens when a point can't be refuted, so all that is left is to attack. It works itself out here nearly every day.

As to the "you can't have it both ways," that was originated by a Dem poster. I just turned it back to them and I will turn it back to you...you can't have it both ways.
Go Ron Paul....now running on an independent
xx
First, let me explain what independent means...
it means you are not registered Republican or Democrat. I am NOT registered Republican OR Democrat. You have to, in this country, be registered to vote, and since I do not agree totally with the platforms of either major party, I registered independent. In this election I am supporting the Republican. I'm sorry if that chaps you but...oh well. I don't support anyone because of the party they are in. THAT is independent.

I have no "party." I am a registered Independent.
And I look at more than how someone speaks. Obama has had 18 months to get polished and up to speed. She has had a couple of months. As far as running a government, if something happened to McCain Palin would surround herself with advisors, just like Obama has done...Biden for foreign policy, plus the other 300 he has on staff, and we get Obama on day one. I have no doubt she would do every bit as well as Obama would. There is more than giving a blazing teleprompter speech than running the country. She has ably run a state, balanced the budget and given refunds on budget surpulses to her constituents. You are not able to do that if you are stupid. Again, I have no party...but I am confident in John McCain and if, God forbid, something happened to him I would be confident in Sarah Palin. At least I know she does not have an agenda to turn this country into a socialist nightmare, and Barak Hussein Obama has demonstrated he wants to do that, it is evident in what he says he WILL do, and that is why NOBAMA, NO WAY, NO HOW.
I am a registered Independent for that very reason.
This is not about Democrat and Republican for me. If you study socialism, it nearly always evolves into dictatorship...Cuba...Venezuela...and it destroys the middle class. All you have in socialism are some haves at the top, now in government, and the have nots at the bottom. How is life in Cuba for the "middle class?"

Unfortunately, these folks are the only two we have right now. And I will not be responsible for putting a far left socialist in the White House.

Sarah Palin IS talking about giving the government back to the people, and that you should serve with a servant's heart. So far she still has that notion that public servants are elected to serve the public. And SHE is the one you want to throw under the bus. Good grief.
I'm an independent, voting for McCain. I have
nm
Why, then, does this post and those like it bother you if you are an independent?

????????


Right....because you're sooooo independent...(sm)
ROFL.....
O'Reilly is not a "Pub". He's an independent.
nm
acc. to your judgment; WHAT is a liberal and what is an independent?..nm
nm
Independent versus Liberal...sm
" In the political realm, an Independent is generally the term used to describe a candidate who is not affiliated with any political party. The word has evolved to some degree and can also be used to describe a candidate who is not a member of a country’s main political parties. In the United States, if one is not a Republican or a Democrat, one might be referred to as an Independent or a third party candidate


Liberalism in the United States is a broad political and philosophical mindset, favoring individual liberty, and opposing restrictions on liberty, whether they come from established religion, from government regulation or grom the existing class structure.

"First, liberalism holds that there is no way to authenticate and prove as true any one version of the Christian faith...Second, liberalism rejects the Bible as being the actual Word of God to man...Third, liberalism restates the doctrine of Christ to show his utter humanity...Fourth, liberalism denies that the Bible has any inherent moral authority over men...Fifth, liberalism denies that mankind is lost and under the condemnation of sin...Sixth, liberalism has no concern with the New Testament concept of the church."

According to this I qualify as a political Independent and a religious Liberal.




I hesitate to respond to this because I'm an Independent and see good and bad

in both liberals and conservatives.


Believe it or not, liberal/independent people can be pro choice, believe in God, love America, would like to see all nations free, and most of all, supports our troops.


First of all, we love our country so much that we have respect for the Constitution. Being pro choice or pro life is a direct result of your religious/spiritual beliefs. The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion for ALL people, even those who don’t subscribe to the same religion as YOU. The concept of when life begins relies 100% on religious beliefs. If I believe that life begins at the moment of conception, then the best way I can honor my God my religion is to not ever have an abortion. What I DON’T believe is that I have the right to impose my religious beliefs on every American in this country via laws. If I do that, I’m infringing on THEIR religious beliefs. The same hold true for stem cell research. If you don’t believe in it, then don’t participate in it. But don’t prevent others who don’t agree with you from reaping the life-saving benefits it may offer. In fact, some of us might think those against this research are anti-life, rather than pro-life, since they don’t seem to care at all about saving the people who are already here. A reasonable person of any faith might ask why in the world God gave us the technology if he/she didn’t want us to use it.


We further believe in the Constitution’s promise that we have freedom of speech. There is no doubt in my mind that you were surrounded by pro Bush people at a pro Bush rally. Were you actually in the same room with President Bush, though? You may have been. I, on the other hand, would never be allowed to attend one of his "town hall" meetings because he prescreens people and doesn’t let anyone in who doesn’t agree with him or might challenge him. Some of us would definitely think this is a very anti-American practice.


As far as other moral values are concerned, I personally don’t believe in lying. My personal God doesn’t care for that very much, either. The entire world was lied to by President Bush concerning the war in Iraq. What’s much worse than that is that he used the tragedy of 9/11 to propagate a war against the leader of a country that wasn’t associated with 9/11 in any way. He used the vast support he received during the Afghanistan invasion after 9/11 to achieve the goal he had before he was even elected President: To declare war against Saddam Hussein. He did this on the blood and backs of every victim of the Twin Towers attack. My personal God really has contempt for that kind of behavior.


As far as getting rid of God "from the publics views," I have yet to hear of one church/synagogue/mosque or other public religious building being shut down by a liberal. Liberals have EQUAL respect for all religions and are against one particular religion receiving favor over another. To bring Jesus’ name into the political arena or an arena paid for by the tax dollars of everyone diminishes other religious beliefs. There are people whose religious beliefs don’t include Jesus, and some liberals see the "My God is better than your God" game to be very dangerous in a country that claims to provide freedom of religion for all.


Finally, regarding our troops: Nobody has more respect for our troops than I do. It’s the President who seems to have no respect. The difference between me and President Bush is that I place much more value on each of their lives. I would never be so reckless with the lives of our children as to send them into an unplanned war, refuse to provide them with adequate equipment to fight that war and protect themselves, and lie to them about their release dates in order to hold them hostage. For several months in a row now, the military has failed to reach their recruitment quotas, which is no surprise to me. I want our troops to come home, ALIVE AND WELL, and that is a direct result of the respect I have for him all. Their lives should not be sacrificed casually for a false reason. Their lives should only be on the line when we are protecting ourselves from a direct threat. Perhaps if Bush cared enough about this country 30-some years ago and served combat duty in Vietnam, he would have more respect for our troops. But his wealth and privilege came to his rescue, and he was able to wiggle out of it. He never had to know firsthand what it’s like to wake up every morning (if indeed you’re that lucky) to wonder if this day is going to be your last. Perhaps if he did, he’d have more respect for our troops today.


Everyone supported the President when he sent troops to Afghanistan after 9/11. Unfortunately, we can’t leave Iraq right now. Bush "broke it," and now WE are MORALLY obligated to fix it. God only knows when that will happen. It’s not, as he and his cronies promised in the beginning, going to be a quick war, and contrary to what he declared in his well-planned photo op, "Mission Accomplished" by a long shot. The terrorists must figure that the odds are pretty good in their favor if only ONE suicide bomber can kill multiple people, Americans and Iraqis, in a single hit. And they’re not going away. They’re only getting stronger all the time because Bush created a haven for them in Iraq. So much for respecting our troops. And how are we going to "fix" the mess he made in Iraq when we simply run out of troops because young people refuse to enlist because they’ve lost faith in him and don’t trust our government any more? He promised he wouldn’t impose a draft. If/when he ultimately DOES impose it, I think a GREAT photo op for him would be when he accompanies Jenna and Barbara as they enlist. I don’t think I’ll hold my breath for that one.


Did you know that part of the Iraq war budget includes a comprehensive health care plan for every Iraqi citizen?  I personally think it's very immoral for a President to take care of others in another country when his own Americans are in the midst of such a health care crisis.


He’s apparently too concerned about "spreading freedom" all over the world to guarantee that same freedom is safe from peril here at home. I recently heard that al Qaeda is now joining drug lords from Central America to cross our carelessly unprotected borders and enter the country. They figured out they can do this successfully because their complexions are similar, and they can easily pass as someone of Latin descent. There is a myriad of other things this President should have done to make this country safer. But he’s too busy obsessing on his personal vendetta against Saddam Hussein. If he had put 1/100th of the effort into finding Osama bin Laden, we would have captured him by now. If he had put 1/100th of the effort into taking precautions concerning nuclear plants and other entities in this country, we actually WOULD be safer today.


Just because someone has tolerance and respect for all religious beliefs; perhaps has his or her own style of respect and support for our troops by wanting to keep them alive and using their service carefully, thoughtfully, and judiciously; believes a person already born and living in this country is a citizen and that an embryo isn’t; believes that we should clean up our own country before trying to clone more like it all over the world; and believes that the Constitution should be the written document that is relied upon to form laws and that religious documents should be left to churches and other houses of worship, doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t love this country, doesn’t believe in God, doesn’t have morals, isn’t a good person and doesn’t have values, and, most importantly, doesn’t support our troops.


The fact that you seem to think it does and would even ask that question, though, makes me wonder somewhat about you.


I just read an independent study that says that only 20% of the public believe

or associate Democrats with christianity.  It's actually down and has been consistently going down.  Of course, I know a lot of Christian Democrats.  None of them seem to post here, but I know many in my private life. They are far to the right, though, like Democrats use to be


When Iraq is set up as an independent democracy and we have withdrawn sm

how in the world can we dictate what they do with their prisoners?  You have to take a wider view of this bill.  It is nothing like what you have presented here.  It's a bill about democracy and a democratic nation. 


Independent journalist/blogger in Iraq....

I don't know this guy's politics and I don't care.  He is imbedded with the 82nd Airborne.  At any rate, it seems to be just the unvarnished truth with no slant in either direction that I can see.  There is a bit of language because he directly quotes some of the soldiers...but I think this is a positive story and I am sure there are many like it that never see the light of day.  Thanks in advance for looking at it.


July 24, 2007



In the Wake of the Surge


By Michael J. Totten



In


BAGHDAD – 82nd Airborne’s Lieutenant William H. Lord from Foxborough, Massachusetts, prepared his company for a dismounted foot patrol in the Graya’at neighborhood of Northern Baghdad’s predominantly Sunni Arab district of Adhamiyah.


“While we’re out here saying hi to the locals and everyone seems to be getting along great,” he said, “remember to keep up your military bearing. Someone could try to kill you at any moment.”



Gearing


I donned my helmet and vest, hopped into the backseat of a Humvee, and headed into the streets of the city with two dozen of the first infantry soldiers deployed to Iraq for the surge. The 82nd Airborne Division is famous for being ready to roll within 24 hours of call up, so they were sent first.


The surge started with these guys. Its progress here is therefore more measurable than it is anywhere else.


Darkness fell almost immediately after sunset. Microscopic dust particles hung in the air like a fog and trapped the day’s savage heat in the atmosphere.


Our convoy of Humvees passed through a dense jungular grove of palm and deciduous trees between Forward Operating Base War Eagle and the market district of Graya’at. The drivers switched off their headlights so insurgents and terrorists could not see us coming. They drove using night vision goggles as eyes.



Night


Just to the right of my knees were the feet of the gunner. He stood in the middle of the Humvee and manned a machine gun in a turret sticking out of the top. I could hear him swiveling his cannon from side to side and pointing it into the trees as we approached the urban sector in their area of operations.


This was all purely defensive. The battalion I’m embedded with here in Baghdad hasn’t suffered a single casualty – not even one soldier wounded – since they arrived in the Red Zone in January. The surge in this part of the city could not possibly be going better than it already is. Most of Graya’at’s insurgents and terrorists who haven’t yet fled are either captured, dormant, or dead.


A car approached our Humvee with its lights on.


“I can’t see, I can’t see,” said the driver. Bright lights are blinding with night vision goggles. “Flash him with the laser,” he said to the gunner. “Flash him with the laser!”


A green laser beam shot out from the gunner’s turret toward the windshield of the oncoming car. The headlights went out.


“What was that about?” I said.


“It’s part of our rules of engagement,” the driver said. “They all know that. The green laser is a warning, and it’s a little bit scary because it looks like a weapon is being pointed at them.”


We slowly rolled into the market area. Smiling children ran up to and alongside the convoy and excitedly waved hello. It felt like I was riding with a liberating army.


Graya’at’s streets are quiet and safe. It doesn’t look or feel like war zone at all. American soldiers just a few miles away are still engaged in almost daily firefights with insurgents and terrorists, but this part of the city has been cleared by the surge.


Before the surge started the neighborhood was much more dangerous than it is now.


“We were on base at Camp Taji [north of the city] and commuting to work,” Major Jazdyk told me earlier. “The problem with that was that the only space we dominated was inside our Humvees. So we moved into the neighborhoods and live there now with the locals. We know them and they know us.”


Lieutenant Lawrence Pitts from Fayetteville, North Carolina, elaborated. “We patrol the streets of this neighborhood 24/7,” he said. “We knock on doors, ask people what they need help with. We really do what we can to help them out. We let them know that we’re here to work with them to make their city safe in the hopes that they’ll give us the intel we need on the bad guys. And it worked.”


The area of Baghdad just to the south of us, which the locals think of as downtown Adhamiyah, is surrounded by a wall recently built by the Army. It is not like the wall that divides Israel from the West Bank. Pedestrians can cross it at will. Only the roads are blocked off. Vehicles are routed through two very strict checkpoints. Weapons transporters and car bombers can’t get in or out.


The area inside the wall is mostly Sunni. The areas outside the wall are mostly Shia. Violence has been drastically reduced on both sides because Sunni militias – including AL Qaeda – are kept in, and Shia militias – including Moqtada al Sadr’s Mahdi Army, are kept out.


Graya’at is a mixed Sunni-Shia neighborhood immediately to the north of the wall.


We dismounted our Humvees and set up a vehicle checkpoint on the far side of the market area. Curfew was going into effect. Anyone trying to drive into the area would be searched.


Dozens of Iraqi civilians milled about on the streets.


“Salam Aleikum,” said the soldiers and I as we walked past.


“Aleikum as Salam,” said each in return.


They really did seem happy to see us.



Three



Two


Children ran up to me.


“Mister, mister, mister!” they said and pantomimed the snapping of photos. I lifted my camera to my face and they nodded excitedly.



Kids



Cute


A large group of men gathered around a juice vendor and greeted us warmly as we approached. A large man in a flowing dishdasha spoke English and, judging by the deference showed to him by the others, seemed to be a community leader of some sort.



Fat


Kids pulled on my shirt as Lieutenant Lord spoke to the group about a gas station the Army is helping set up in the neighborhood. Gasoline is more important to Iraqis than it is to even Americans. Baghdad is as much an automobile-based city as Los Angeles. They also need fuel for electric generators. Baghdad’s electrical grid only supplies one hour of electricity every day. It is ancient, overloaded, in severe disrepair, and is sabotaged by the insurgents. The outside temperature rarely drops below 100 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer, even at night. Air conditioners aren’t luxuries here. They are requirements. No gasoline? No air conditioner.


“The gas station on the corner should be opening soon,” the lieutenant said to the group of men. “Do you think the prices are fair?”


The fat man understood the question. Our young interpreter from Beirut, Lebanon, who calls herself “Shine,” translated for everyone else.



Lebanese


Most gasoline in Iraq has to be purchased on the black market for four times the commercial and government rate partly because there is an acute lack of proper places to sell it. A new gas station in this country is actually a big deal.


The men thought the price of gasoline at the station was reasonable. The conversation continued mundanely and I quickly grew bored.


Everyone was friendly. No one shot at us or even looked at us funny. Infrastructure problems, not security, were the biggest concerns at the moment. I felt like I was in Iraqi Kurdistan – where the war is already over – not in Baghdad.


It was an edgy “Kurdistan,” though. Every now and then someone drove down the street in a vehicle. If any military-aged males (MAMs as the Army guys call them) were in the car, the soldiers stopped it and made everybody get out. The vehicle and the men were then searched.



Searching


Everyone who was searched took it in stride. Some of the Iraqi men smirked slightly, as if the whole thing were a minor joke and a non-threatening routine annoyance that they had been through before. The procedure looked and felt more like airport security in the United States than, say, the more severe Israeli checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza.



Four


“What are you guys doing out after curfew?” said Sergeant Lizanne.


“I’m sorry, sorry,” said a young Iraqi man in a striped blue and tan t-shirt.


“There is no sorry,” said Sergeant Lizanne. “I don’t give a s**t. The curfew is at the same time every night. I don’t want to have to start arresting you.”


“Why are you stopping these guys,” I said to Lieutenant Lord, “when there are so many other people milling around on the streets?”


“Because they’re MAMs who are driving,” he said. “We’re going easy on everyone else. We’ve already oppressed these people enough. They have a night culture in the summer, so if they aren’t military aged males driving cars we leave them alone. We were very heavy-handed in 2003. Now we’re trying to move forward together. At least 90 percent of them are normal fun-loving people.”


“Do they ever get p****d off when you search them?” I said.


“Not very often,” he said. “They understand we’re trying to protect them.”



Suspect


“This is not what I expected in Baghdad,” I said.


“Most of what we’re doing doesn’t get reported in the media,” he said. “We’re not fighting a war here anymore, not in this area. We’ve moved way beyond that stage. We built a soccer field for the kids, bought all kinds of equipment, bought them school books and even chalk. Soon we’re installing 1,500 solar street lamps so they have light at night and can take some of the load off the power grid. The media only covers the gruesome stuff. We go to the sheiks and say hey man, what kind of projects do you want in this area? They give us a list and we submit the paperwork. When the projects get approved, we give them the money and help them buy stuff.”


Not everything they do is humanitarian work, unless you consider counter-terrorism humanitarian work. In my view, you should. Few Westerners think of personal security as a human right, but if you show up in Baghdad I’ll bet you will. Personal security may, in fact, be the most important human right. Without it the others mean little. People aren’t free if they have to hide in their homes from death squads and car bombs.


In another part of Graya’at is an area called the Fish Market. Gates were installed at each entrance so terrorists can’t drive car bombs inside. The people here are extraordinarily grateful for this. Businesses, not cars, are booming now at the market. Residents feel free and safe enough to go out.



Smiling


“The kids here do seem to like you,” I said to Lieutenant Lord.


“They do,” he said. “In Sadr City, though, they throw rocks and flip us off.”


The American military is staying out of Sadr City for now. The surge hasn’t even begun there, and I don’t know if it will.


I wandered over to the man selling juice at a stand. An American soldier bought a glass from him.



Buying


“Have you tried this juice?” the soldier said to me. “It’s really good stuff. Here have a sip.”


He handed me the glass. It was an excellent mixture of freshly squeezed orange juice and something else. Pineapple, I think.


The kids kept pulling my shirt.


“Mister, mister!” they said, wanting me to take their picture.



Two


The same kids kept pestering the soldiers, as well. They seemed to get a big kick out of it.



Soldier


A small group of soldiers continued talking to the locals about community projects they’re helping out with.



Three


I tried to listen in but the kids wouldn’t leave me alone. Finally one of the adults took mercy on me and shooed the children away so I could listen and talk to the grownups. The conversation, though, was mundane. The soldiers were talking and acting like aid workers, not warriors from the elite 82nd Airborne Division.


“Man, this is boring,” one of them said to me later. “I’m an adrenaline junky. There’s no fight here. It won’t surprise me if we start handing out speeding tickets.” So it goes in at least this part of Baghdad that has been cleared by the surge.


“When we first got here,” said another and laughed, “s**t hit the fan.”


It was all a bit boring, but blessedly so. I knew already that not everyone in Baghdad was hostile. But it was slightly surprising to see that entire areas in the Red Zone are not hostile.


Anything can happen in Baghdad, even so. The convulsive, violent, and overtly hostile Sadr City is only a few minutes drive to the southeast.


“Want to walk past your favorite house?” Lieutenant Lord said to Sergeant Lizanne.


“Let’s do it,” said Sergeant Lizanne.


“What’s your favorite house?” I said.


“It’s a house we walked past one night,” said Sergeant Lizanne. “Some guys on the roof locked and loaded on us.”


Gun shots rang out in the far distance. None of the Iraqis paid much attention but the soldiers perked up and stiffened their posture like hunting dogs.


“Gun shots,” Lieutenant Lord said.


“I heard,” I said. “You going to do anything about it?”


“Nah,” he said and shrugged. “They were far away and could be anything, even shots fired in the air at a wedding. A lot of these guys are stereotypical Arabs.”


The gun shots were a part of the general ambience.



*


We walked along a narrow path along the banks of the Tigris River in darkness. “The house,” as they called it, where someone locked and loaded a rifle, was a quarter mile or so up ahead.




“What will you do when you get to the house?” I asked Lieutenant Lord.


“We’ll do a soft-knock,” he said. “We’re not going to be dicks about it.”


I couldn’t see well, but I could see. Even my camera could see if I held it steady enough.



Palm


The soldiers had night vision goggles. They could see perfectly, if “green” counts as perfect. One of them let me borrow his for a few minutes.



Night


Putting on the goggles was like stepping into another world. The soldiers’ rifles come with a laser that shoots a light visible only to those wearing the goggles. It helps soldiers zero in on their target. It also lets them “point” at things in the terrain when they talk to each other. Some used the green rifle laser to point out locations in the area the way a professor points at a chalk board with a stick.



Night


We walked in silence and darkness toward “the house.” I could just barely make out the silhouettes of the soldiers’ helmets and rifles and body armor in front of me.


“Where should I be when this goes down?” I quietly said to the lieutenant.


“Just stay next to me,” he whispered back.


We stopped in front of the house. It was shrouded in total darkness on the bank of the river.



The


Lieutenant Lord quietly signaled for half his platoon to go around to the other side of the house. I scanned the roof looking for snipers or gunmen, but didn’t see anyone. Still, I still decided to step up to the outer wall of the house so no one could shoot me from the roof.


We waited in silence for ten minutes. The area was absolutely quiet and still. The curfew was in effect and we were away from the main market area where pedestrians were allowed out after dark.


Feeling more relaxed, I stepped away from the house and toward the river. Once again I checked the roof for snipers or gun men. This time I saw the black outlines of two soldiers standing up there and motioning to us below.


It was time to walk around to the other side, to the front door, and go in. I stayed close to the lieutenant.


The other side of the house, the front side of the house, was lit by street lights. Children laughed and kicked around a soccer ball.


Gun shots rang out in the night, closer this time.


“Take a knee,” Lieutenant Lord said to one of his men.


The soldier got down on one knee and pointed his weapon down the street in the direction of the gunfire. The children kept playing soccer as though nothing had happened. I casually leaned against the wall of the house in case something nasty came down the street.


We heard no more shots. It could have been anything.


A soldier pushed open the gate and moved up the stairs toward the front door. I followed cautiously behind the lieutenant to make sure I wouldn’t get hit if something happened.


Up the stairs was an open area in the house that hadn’t yet been finished by the construction workers.



Inside


Lieutenant Lord had gotten far ahead of me. I found him speaking to an old man and his family. He, his military age son, his wife, and some children were herded into a single small room where everyone could be watched at the same time.



Kids


“We’re not going to be dicks about it,” he had said, and he lived up to his promise. The family was treated with utmost respect. The old woman blew kisses at us. The children smiled. This was not a raid.


I stepped into the room and noticed a picture of the moderate Shia cleric Ayatollah Sistani on the wall. It suddenly seemed unlikely that this family was hostile. Still, someone in the house had locked and loaded on patrolling American soldiers.


“We have tight relationships with some of the people whose sons are detainees,” Lieutenant Colonel Wilson A. Shoffner had told me earlier. “They don’t approve of their children joining Al Qaeda or the Mahdi Army. The support for these groups really isn’t that high.”


Perhaps the man’s son was the one who had locked and loaded.


The old man handed Lieutenant Lord an AK-47. The lieutenant pulled out the clip.


“Do you have any more guns,” he said. Our Lebanese interpreter translated.


“I have only one gun,” he said. “I am an old man.”


“I have a pistol,” said the man’s son.


“If you go down into Adhamiyah do you take your pistol with you?” said the lieutenant. Adhamiyah is a Sunni-majority area, and this family was Shia.


“No,” he said. “Of course not.”




“Someone here locked and loaded on me when we did a foot patrol along the river a while ago,” Lieutenant Lord said. “Who was it?”


The old man laughed. “It was me!” he said and laughed again. He couldn’t stop laughing. He even seemed slightly relieved. “I thought it might have been insurgents! It was dark. I couldn’t see who it was. All Americans are my sons.”


Lieutenant Lord looked at him dubiously.


“What did you see?” he said. “Tell me the story of what you saw.”


“I heard people walking,” said the old man. “I did not see Americans. I looked over the roof and heard who I guess was your interpreter speaking Arabic.”


“Sergeant Miller,” Lieutenant Lord said.


“Sir,” Sergeant Miller said.


“Does that sound right to you?”


“Sounds right to me, LT,” he said.


“If this is a nice neighborhood,” Lieutenant Lord said, “why did you lock and load?”


“I thought maybe there were insurgents down there,” the old man said.


Are there insurgents here?”


“Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t think here, no.”


“Then why lock and load?”


The old man mumbled something.


“Sergeant Miller, I want to separate the old man from his family,” Lieutenant Lord said. “Keep an eye on them.”


The lieutenant walked the old man to the roof. I followed.


“I’m very concerned about what you’re telling me,” he said. “Who is making you live in fear?”


“I’m a good guy,” said the old man.


“I’m not saying you aren’t,” said the lieutenant. “I’m just very concerned that you are afraid of somebody here.”


“It was the first time. It was dark. I couldn’t see. I’m very sorry.”


“It’s okay,” said the lieutenant. “You don’t need to be sorry. You have the right to defend yourself and your home. Just be sure if you have to shoot someone that you know who you’re shooting at. Thank you for your help, and I am sorry for waking you up.”


The old man hugged the lieutenant and kissed him on his both cheeks.


The family waved us goodbye.


“Ma Salema,” I said and felt slightly guilty for being there.


We walked back to the Humvees.


“Do you believe him?” I said to the lieutenant. I have no idea how to tell when an Iraqi is lying.


“I do,” he said. “I think he’s a good guy. His story matched what happened.”


“He didn’t want to answer your question, though,” I said, “about who he is afraid of.”


There are terrible stories around here about the masked men of the death squads. Sometimes they break into people’s houses and asking the children who they’re afraid of. If they name the enemies of the death squad, they are spared. If they name the death squad itself, they and their families are killed. It’s a wicked interrogation because it cannot be beaten – the children don’t know which death squad has broken into the house.


“He didn’t want to say who he’s afraid of because he’s afraid,” Lieutenant Lord said. “If the insurgents find out he gave information to us, or that he helped us, he’s dead.”


I was particularly impressed with the fact that this battalion had suffered no casualties, even wounded, in 7 months.  That is an improvement, no matter how you look at it, and there are obviously Iraqis who are still glad we are there.  That is what I meant in previous posts.  The plain old everyday Iraqis like you and me; not the militants, the insurgents, the militias...just everyday folks like you and me.  Those are the ones who will suffer most if we pull out en masse, too quickly.  That is all I was ever trying to say.