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So is posting the same argument.

Posted By: Lydia on 2006-11-07
In Reply to: Same old conservative arguments - Liberal2

I remind you that the monitor recently posted we could cross-post, as we have had liberals on the conservative board, as long as the posts were not bashing. 


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    LOL No argument s/m

    I'm neither Democrat or Republican, I usually call myself independent.  I march to my own drum.  I would have liked to have seen 2 different candidates than what we had.  I would have liked to see a true Christ-like man, humble and honest in his/her campaign...i.e. the "Straight Talk Express" which McCain claimed to have and didn't.


    I simply voted AGAINST the man who bragged that he had voted "with the president over 90% of the time, more than even his Republican colleagues."  We certainly need change.  I know I haven't fared so well under Bush.  All is not lost for those who think Obama is a monster if he in fact turns out to be what he's been accused of being. .  Remember Richard Nixon? 


    you win the argument
    If you like Bush you are a rare person indeed. His approval rating is 26%.

    So now is your time to shine because your guy is still in charge and you should enjoy it.
    Yes, anything to make an argument...sm
    No pun intended to reality check, but yes anything can turn into an argument. Yep.
    Why don't you take your little argument over to the CON board.
    You can con each other on the CON board.  How's that?
    Wow, that's a good argument....
    it is not a personal choice. There are two people involved, one of whom has NO choice. Not fair.
    Is that your only argument for socialism?
    My word....people are committing adultery on both sides of the fence, that will never change. What in the world does that have to do with socialism and socialists candidate?
    But you have made your argument here FOR
    You already know where Obama stands. He has said outright he will raise taxes to pay for more social programs. He wants to tell you how to get your healthcare. I agree we definitely need to do something about healthcare but then that could be easily done if the fat cats on capitol hill, including Obama, would stop insurance lobbyists and make it illegal for lobbying....period!!! They then would have to make it more affordable or they will not have a business to run in the first place.

    I too would like to see our troops come home from Iraq but not give that money to Obama because it will be wasted faster than you can blink and on what? More socialist programs...

    If you look deep into what Obama hasn't detailed in his healthcare plan, you will see that you WILL be paying DEEPLY for it. He has managed to waltz around the details of his plan, which include HUGE tax hikes to pay for that wonderful healthcare he wants to give you.

    With the two candidates I am left to choose from, I choose a capitalist over a socialist any day. I'm about to believe Obama would sell his soul to the devil to get in that position.
    Okay, that argument aside, here's a legitimate
    What will be your thoughts, and more importantly - your ACTIONS - if the candidate of your choice doesn't win?

    Where do you go from there?
    Do you have a plan as to what you will do, or not do, or change, or flee, if your candidates lose the election?
    I can see both sides of the argument
    Yes, many people are getting threatened and businesses getting picketed for supporting Prop 8. You cannot deny that (what was the pink taliban or whatever that disrupted church service a month or so ago?)

    But on the other hand, if they want these donations anonymous, than that means Obama and other politicians can make their donations anonymous, and I think it's the publics right to know who is financing the next leaders of the country.

    I just find it interesting that the homosexuals are assaulting and threatening supporters of the Prop 8 for what they believe in when they themselves are asking for fair treatment for what they believe in.
    You don't do your argument any good

    by talking down to people.  The point I gathered from the the Bloomberg article seems to state what many have said and that is that with all the spending the government has done and will continue to do, the government could have paid off almost all mortgages and settled what was touted as the root cause of all the problems, the subprime mess. 


    Bailouts don't work, handouts don't work, the free market does. 


    With one mistake after another, rookie Obama's decisions and policies demonstrate one thing only and that is his stimulus package is political payback instead of finding genuine solutions.  The vagueness of his campaign speechmaking was the work of a hollow wordsmith after all. 


    "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
    -Winston Churchill

     


    I am so sick of this argument
    All that clause means is that their will be no state sponsored religion - like saying everyone has to be Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic. It had nothing to do with taking God out of the white house or supreme court or anywhere else! The only reason that happened is because Christians just sat by and didn't say anything while everyone else whined about it and now it's too late to reverse all that because the mindset now is "oh we have to have separation of church and state!"

    Of course as greedy and grimy as politicians are these days they probably feel better thinking that God doesn't pay attention to politics!

    Here's some quotes from the founding fathers:

    William Bradford
    • wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
    • 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
    • 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

    John Adams and John Hancock:
    We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

    "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

    “The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
    John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

    Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
    “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

    In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."


    Patrick Henry:
    "Orator of the Revolution."
    • This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
    —The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry


    Thomas Jefferson:
    “ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

    “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

    "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

    Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
    Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
    • "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."


    That is a valid argument. Thank you

    I heard that argument..(sm)

    They're saying they'll have to raise taxes when the extended benefits run out.  This doesn't make sense to me.  If while they are receiving extended benefits they are creating jobs with the other aspects of the stimulus, wouldn't the total bill for unemployment go down? 


    Not a good argument...(sm)

    I could just as easily say that if you believe in the sanctity of life so much, why are you willing to torture and kill others.


    That argument won't work because most people who are pro-choice do not believe that life begins at conception.


    Ah, the persecuted Christian argument. Please.............

    That was the argument in 1960. We didn't buy it then and we are...sm
    not buying it now almost 50 years later. Religion should have no part of politics any more than race, gender or anything else that has no bearing on whether a person can lead.
    That whole "blood for oil" argument is garbage.
    nm
    An argument for redistribution of wealth

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm


    FY 2007


    Total tax revenues for FY 2007 are composed of:


    1.     Individual income tax                  45%. 


    Included in individual income tax category are capital gains taxes, which make up between 4% and 7% of individual income tax revenues and between 2% and 3% of total tax revenues within this category.


    2.     Payroll taxes                               35%


    Social insurance (Social Security).  Funds used to pay for Federal Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance, Unemployment Insurance, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, Medicare/Medicaid, State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)


    Supplemental Security Income (SSI).   Individual's share of this is 17.5%.  


    3.     Corporate Income Tax                 15%


    4.     Excise Tax                                    3%. 


    Essentially a consumer tax on alcohol, cigarettes and gas. 


    5.     "Other"                                          2%


     


    So, individuals' share of total tax revenues amounts to approximately 65.5%, employers 17.5% and corporations 15% plus the mysterious "other" of 2%.    


     


    If you go to the above link and scroll down about halfway, you will find a nifty little chart that shows how much the share corporations paid into total tax revenues has diminshed since 1950.  For example, an early 50s spike on the graph show corporations' share to be approximately 30+%...TWICE AS MUCH AS IT IS NOW.   


     


    A couple of other points of interest: 


    http://www.sba.gov/ADVO/laws/statement07_0309.html


    "…tax compliance costs employers with less than 20 employees a total of $1304 per employee as compared to employers with 500 or more employees which incur $780 per employee to comply with Federal taxes.(6) Put another way, small entities pay 40% more for tax compliance than employers with 500 or more employees.


     


    http://www.cbpp.org/8-9-05bud.htm


    Center on Budget and Policy Priorities – How Robust was 2001-2007 Economic Expansion?  Figures 1 and 2 will indicate the following information:


     


    Based on the 7 economic indicators, Bush years turned in below average growth percentages in every single indicator except for one….CORPORATE PROFITS.  The biggest losers….employment (JOBS) and wages and salaries (PAYCHECKS).   To make this dry economic data a little bit spicier, 2 comparisons have been shown…Bush years against Post WWII averages and Bush years as compared to the 90s decade.  I have run averages on the trough and peak growth comparison data depicted in Figure 2 to come up with the following overall percentages.  Pay special attention to the last 3 items. 


     


    1.     Gross Domestic Product (GDP) down 31% from Post WWII average and down 12.85% from the 90s


    2.     Consumption down 23.45% from Post WWII average and down 6.25% from the 90s   


    3.     Non-residential fixed investment down 40% from Post WWII average and down 58% from the 90s 


    4.     Net worth down 16.25% from Post WWII average and down 20.1% from the 90s 


    5.     Wages and salaries (PAYCHECKS) down a whopping 55.6% from Post WWII average and down an impressive 40.55% from the 90s


    6.     Employment (JOBS) down an amazing 68.65% from Post WWII average and down an impressive 46.65% from the 90s


    7.     Corporate profits up 200% above post WWII average and up 126% from the 90s.    


                                      


    From where I sit, there is clearly something wrong with this picture.  I will be voting for the candidate who shares this view and plans to restore a more balanced, equitable and FAIR distribution of wealth.  This is not about shifting bucks from one person to another.  This is about corporations whose butts are being bailed out right and left by us Joe Shmoes shouldering more fiscal responsibility toward their shareholders AND toward John Q. Public.  


    Citizenship argument...another red herring on
    Get over yourself.
    The closing argument that lifts us up
    what it really means to be an American.  No amount of harsh rhetoric or divisive tactics can touch the hope I hold nor the joy I take in knowing that the country I love, which has lost so much of late, is still there, is on the mend and that better and brighter days are just around the bend.     
    Good argument for the 10% threshold. :) nm
    nm
    What kind of good solid argument is that?
    All I saw was a good article assessing the state of our emergency readiness and the conservative comes back with nyah nyah, a guy got shot, hope you're happy.

    Is that what anyone calls good solid argument?
    I just knew some people would make this into an argument

    I just thought it was pretty cool and on the lighter side. But...as usual, some people just want to argue.


    Your argument does not hold a drop of water.
    Number one. No they wouldn't...journalists are like lawyers...they don't rat out their sources. It is a question of professional integrity. Furthermore, the LA Times went into great detail to describe precisely what was on the video. No cigar on that media bias whining. This is what happens when campaigns declare war on the media, keep their VP pick on a short leash, avoid one-on-one interviews like the plaque and squeal out loud when the rogue goes off script. The media would not be having a field day if there weren't such an abundant pool of news stories being generated daily by this pathetically mismanaged and misguided camp.

    Since when is the International REPUBLICAN Institute, chaired by McCain, the REBPULICAN presidential candidate apolitical? Explain this to me, please. The Center for PALESTINIAN Research and Study...apolitial? On what planet is the subject of Palestine apolitical? Seriously, can you point out any Palestinian living either in OCCUPIED Palestine or in the diapora who is NOT political. If it weren't political, there would have been no exchange of funds. Not at all the same as what...a little incoherent here.

    The "meeting" was a farewell dinner for Khalidi held at a Palestinian community center in Chicago for this American born, Yale graduate, Oxford University Doctor of Philosophy, former professor and director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies and the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago, current professor at Columbia University. He is a member of the National Advisory Committee of the US INTERreligious Committee for Peace in the Middle East...a national organization of Jews, Christians and Muslims. He is also a member of the Board of Sponsors of the Palestine-Israel Journal, a publication founded by prominent Palestinian and ISRAELI journalists.

    Radical Israel hater? Sam, this may come as a shock to you, but Palestinians take great pride in crossing cultures and religions for the sake of garnering peace in their war-torn country. You need help interpreting what Obama meant by "showing me my own personal bias." This is what occurs when people cross cultures, talk to one another, listen to points of view other than their own and start the process of coming to terms with the ethnocentric bias they carry around from their own cultures. I know exactly what he means. It is precisely the quality an effective foreign policy leader need to have to make effective diplomatic inroads. If you want to make something suspicious and subversive out of that....be my guest. In the absence of the tape, Sam, just how is it that you claim to know precisely what transpired during that farewell dinner?

    Notably absence from you post is any direct comment on the fact that Chairman McCain's IRI funded the organization that Khalidi founded for 2 years in a row. If he is the Jew hater you suggest he is, then wouldn't that mean that once again, Chairman McCain had a vetting deficit?

    Rabid rants will not support your argument.
    with anything. Rememer the burden of proof thingy in the courts? Why do you think Berg the Boob is suing on grounds of "standing" and alleged "harm"...claims that thus far have been laughed out of court?
    Another argument based on false premise.
    underpinnings of our democracy? Here's a clue just for you. What is the function of the Supreme Court? Since when do the 3 branches of our govt NOT interpret the constitution? This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the ignorance you seem to feel compelled to display, and dern proudly, I might add.

    Before you try to tell the rest of us how we should be thinking and such, perhaps you should be addressing your own severe afflictions, starting with your blind hatred.
    Wow, that was a powerful, cogent, scholarly argument!..................nm
    nm
    The fire safety argument is a lot of hooey.

    Is it more of a fire hazard just because more than 15 people meet on a regular basis than if someone has a single  party for 30 people? 


    As long as you and the other wiccans are clothed and no open-burning laws are being broken (in a residential area, that would  be a fire hazard) I would have no particular problem with your rituals.  Depending on the time of day/night and loudness of chanting, it might constitute a disturbance of the peace, same as a loud barbecue party in the neighborhood.  But with the basic concept of your meeting, no big deal.


    sam, weak argument based on semantics, that reporter's
    implication was all too clear, and just another stupid accusation in order to mislead yet more uneducated, misinformed voters.
    I'm afraid my history lesson disqualifies your argument.
    be a smartass and ask what has changed since his statement. I simply stated the obvious answer. What has changed is his MIND. If he didn't feel qualified, he would not have run. Evidently, 65,431,955 citizens agreed with this chane of heart. You cannot argue away the fact that GREAT presidents have held office with much less experience than Obama...and I look for him to be adding his name to that list of the BEST our country has to offer in short order.
    Nope, never said I wasn't black, but I remember the argument you're talking about...sm
    Nan, Military Brat and Bush supporter took me to task over whether or not I was black when I said *and who said I was black anyway* I'm trying to find this in archives.

    But, what I can't stand is people having a preformed opinion about how I am going to think or should think since I'm black, that's why I don't post my race. Once I posted that I was African American that's when they started the *I thought you said you weren't black.* Which I have never denied my race. Sorry, but not true.
    Hindsight is 20/20. The same argument could be made of North Korea if they decide to attack...sm
    after Bush's 2nd term has ended.

    Clinton and Bush definitely were opposites on foreign policy, but I think he did try - probably didn't do as much as he could. What Bush is doing with the war in Iraq though, I think is irresponsible as well.
    why are you posting here?
    I believe in personal responsibility. I dont believe you or the govt have a right to tell anyone what to do with their body. If my choices are wrong, I will stand in judgment when I meet my maker. I also dont follow in lock step with an administration that lies to the people about Iraq. Supporting our troops and not falling for lies about this illegal war are two different things. Yes, it is an illegal war. The world realizes this. The International Court of Justice realizes this. Of course, I support our troops and want them home. Believing in God is a personal decision and should not be shoved down others throats. I believe in separation of church and state, do not mix religion and politics. I dont believe we should have the state and/or president intervening when a spouse wants to let someone pass whose brain is half the size of a normal brain, living only due to rudimentary reflexes and I certainly do not think they should waste my tax dollars on trying to tie the hands of the spouse. These republicans/conservatives are way out of control in so many ways. It would be quite laughable if it wasnt so pitiful. I believe this is not a Christian country but a country with many religions and beliefs and I respect the people enough to let them choose what to believe. Seems to me nowadays democrats are acting like the way republicans used to, i.e., keep govt at a minimum and out of personal business, keep the budget balanced or as close to balance as possible. Republicans/conservatives are so off course right now. They are trying to invade into the states rights and personal rights. They have waged an immoral illegal war, my children and my childrens children will be paying to reduce this massive deficit, caused by republicans. Yes I oppose **liberating** other countries who dont ask us to help. Who the heck do we think we are, invading a soverign country and pushing our beliefs and religion and morals down their throats? Iraq is worse off today than it was under Saddam. Under Saddam, they had jobs, food, electricity, a life of certainty and definitely not lawlessness in the streets. We have killed tens of thousands of Iraqis with the excuse of liberating them. We have created a terrorist breeding ground and it will continue. The minute we kill off terrorists, their sons and daughters will rise up and fight back. We are just as bad as Saddam with our sickening war machine.
    Thanks for posting this.
    that's what it's all about.
    posting
    In an odd sense of.....oh...whatever, please continue to post here.  No one wants you not to (gosh, it must be the green tea Im drinking this morning).  *note to me, get rid of that darn republican green tea*..
    Not posting here

    What is it about this issue that makes you people think that anyone finds YOU to be a threat to the point where you are all suddenly retreating and saying you won't post here any more???????????


    The problem is with the breach of security on this site.  Unless you're the owner/moderator/administrator, this does not apply to you personally.


    This issue should have been brought to the forefront on the company board a week ago when this incident happened, but I guess too many people were shocked by the blatant lack of ethics and the not so subliminal message that if anyone says anything negative about this company, your ISP will be tracked, and at that point, I, along with probable others, was afraid to post anything further.


    why do they keep posting here?
    For the life of me, I dont understand why these same bitter so angry conservatives come over to the liberal board and post.  They are not wanted here.  I guess the anger just builds up as they try to live their obviously unhappy lives and when they cant stand it any more, they come over here to start trouble.  It just bugs the heck out of them that we are patriotic, love the troops and want them home alive.  Some of these radical neocons actually say the troops are fighting for our freedom and freedom of speech?  What?  The war in Iraq has nothing to do with our freedom or freedom of speech.  They will just throw anything out there to try to justify Bush's war.  They sound so silly, just makes me shake my head and laugh.  A bunch of fools.
    Wow, thanks for posting
    >
    Thanks for posting.
    I really like Paul Krugman.
    Thank you for posting this.
    And thanks Lurker for writing it.  Lurker brought up many, many valid issues and good points.  I wonder why nobody on that other board even bothered to address those issues.
    There was someone posting here sm

    In fact several, and I thought one of them was you, who were listing lots of links that Bush engineered 9/11.  I guess I was mistaken, but someone was posting it here.


    Thank you for posting this!
    My heart was really heavy...was I was not aware of this stance until this thread began. It is indeed heartening to know this. Thanks again!
    Thanks for posting
    I think you made my point better than I did when I was discussing this. I don't think it was always clear exactly how the program worked. From what I had read, the basics of the program were staying essentially the same - that the states had the control over who they covered. The only things, at least from what I saw, that the expansion did was allow the federal government to raise their limit (which states do not have to necessarily comply with, it just gives the states more options), collect more income for the states' programs, and allow more agencies to help decide eligibility. Everything would still essentially be in the states' hands.
    Thanks for posting that
    That's the sort of stuff I was looking for. The article I read was obviously skewed the other direction. In a way, I think it makes me like him more. There are so many people in this country who are completely turned off by politics. They see it as a bunch of rich white men controlling their lives. Because he is so candid about his past, I think there will be a large number of people who feel that they can relate to him better than any other candidate.

    It sounds a little crazy to say, but I think his honesty will help him.
    Thanks for posting!
    nm
    Hey sam....thanks so much for posting....sm
    I knew you could explain it much more succinctly than I could.
    Thank you for posting that. sm
    Loved it!




    Thanks for posting! nm
    nm
    Thanks for posting
    I'm not meaning to start a riot either but my opinion, this nation was founded on the principal that "In God we Trust."  We are no longer a Christian nation.  God blessed this nation for 200+ years, then we allowed Him to be kicked out and look where we are today.  Again, this is MY opinion.
    Thanks for posting this, Sam.
    nm
    Thank you for posting this!
    I am a Christian and have been struggling this past month, maybe the economy, maybe just myself feeling that I've not been doing all He wants me to. There is no ridicule from me; I agree with you totally and I am so glad you posted this. I've noticed a couple of posts where there is this misconception that Christians think we are better or something.


    Christians - By Maya Angelou


    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'."
    I'm whispering "I was lost,
    Now I'm found and forgiven."

    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I don't speak of this with pride.
    I'm confessing that I stumble
    and need Christ to be my guide.

    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I'm not trying to be strong.
    I'm professing that I'm weak
    And need His strength to carry on.

    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I'm not bragging of success.
    I'm admitting I have failed
    And need God to clean my mess.

    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I'm not claiming to be perfect,
    My flaws are far too visible
    But, God believes I am worth it.

    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I still feel the sting of pain.
    I have my share of heartaches
    So I call upon His name.

    When I say... "I am a Christian"
    I'm not holier than thou,
    I'm just a simple sinner
    Who received God's good grace, somehow!