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Young soldiers I know personally and on TV. Many

Posted By: of them think it is a pointless civil war, but... on 2007-10-10
In Reply to: Who are these many soldiers? - Observer

many of them felt very differently when they first went to war.  After coming back they seem to come back with a very different view.  Most of the soldiers I know think the war needs to end.  I don't think most Americans think we should stop funding the war until the soldiers come home, and that's just it, many of us want them to come home!  I watched a documentary on Showtime called Semper Fi, and it was a really moving account of a proud Marine's time in Iraq.  I would definitely recommend watching it if you want to hear a first-hand account of how one patriotic soldier was disillusioned by the war and how he was given false information over and over again by his higher-ups.  I don't claim to know the solution, and I know none of the candidates on either side have the perfect solution either, but I just feel that we are not making the progress we should be making, kids' mothers and fathers are dying every day in Iraq, and it makes me incredibly sad.  Simple as that.  I don't think we have any right to be there.  I do believe we had a right to go to Afganistan, but not Iraq.  That's just my feeling, and I really don't feel like getting into a huge debate about the war.  I just want it to end.


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She took it personally because she was attacked personally. Plain and simple.

Where did you get your debating skills?  On the south side of Chicago in some street gang?  Because if you did, it shows.


In a REAL debate, there is no room or tolerance for personal attacks.  Yet, that's all you people know how to do.  You can't stay on the issue.  You MUST attack the poster personally, claiming to know not only what they think and feel but also claiming to know what every liberal ever thought or did, what they're thinking and doing right now and what they will be thinking and doing for the next 1,000 years.  In fact, you seem to know everything about anything that ever existed on the planet, exists now or will exist into infinity. 


As I (and others) have said repeatedly and you just can't seem to grasp, if you constantly treat people badly, they're not going to want to associate with you.  Lurker was very gracious in her posts to all of you on your board, but even she, in the end, couldn't tolerate your continued, nonstop, personal attacks any more (as she indicated in her responses to the attackers).  If you ever stop knowing it all and become interested in the proper way of debating someone, you could learn a lot from Lurker.  You see, having *thick skin* is only important if you're a thug in a gang somewhere.  It's irrelevant when it comes to treating humans like humans, and in that area, you have a lot to learn. 


As for me, I like to learn from intelligent, friendly people with different political views, so I visit boards where those kinds of people are found.  Not all conservatives are angry, rude, come out swinging and need to personally attack 1,000% of the time.  Some of them are actually quite nice and informative, and they can be found on other forums.  Too bad they can't be found on MTStars.


Have a pleasant evening.


As a mom of 3 young men, I remember
vividly the day my oldest left for the Air Force. He was 19. There was no war. Then son #2 left in the National Guard in 1991 during Desert Storm.

I have to give her credit for even being able to speak, let alone hold up under fire, right after sending her son off to war!
You may be too young to remember, but that is what..sm
they said about John F. Kennedy and we all know what happened with that election and Nixon's loss, eventual election, and ultimate disgrace to our country. Most would have said Nixon was more qualified and had more experience. What do you think?
You must be quite young. It is an old saying originating..sm
from an actual doll that talked when you pulled the string. Chatty Cathy
Okay, pull it on.........young man said it with
xx
Wow you were married that young!
That's the crazy thing I read in any of your posts. LOL. Just kidding. Been with my DH since I was 18 but didn't get married until I was 25 and we decided to have kids. Good luck.
You must be too young to remember the 50s and 60s.
Can't get past the first laughable faulty premise that would have us believe there has never been an illegal election in the US. Discredits your entire post.
Thank god Im still young enough for someone to tell me to Grow up
LOL

PS I did not hear that on TV
Did you see the one about the young guy who worked

at McDonald's for 4 1/2 years? He couldn't get another job and wanted to know what O was going to do about it. I was absolutely shocked!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TptsP4ryido&feature=related


You must be pretty young if you
.
They not only *prey* on young people
but they are so desperate to find kids to die in Iraq that they even take kids on drugs and teach these kids how to pass a drug test so they can get in the military.
I think you underestimate the young minds...sm
Thought I'll agree the walkout probably was not for political reasons so much so as for what they believe is right. Do you think they probably have a lot of respect for this teacher? Maybe. It is possible to be passionate about something other than cutting class as a teenager. I know I was, and so is my daughter who just turned 13.

I also have to give you the point that the teacher should have stayed on the subject matter of the class. If you're hired to teach geography then teach geograpy BUT we don't have the privlege of seeing the course outlines, book, etc. It may not be so cut and dry as capitols, states, and what have you. So before you call for his head on a plank you should at least know that much. Whose to say that this course was not comingled with history and this teacher was within his right to bring up subjects to provoke thought. I don't see the problem with that.

Listening to the message in a whole, I don't see a problem in what the teacher said excpt that he may have deviated from the subject matter. And the fact still remains that we don't know the totality of the course description.
She's that young? I figured McCain was at

encouraging young people to

become involved in the election process -- can anything be more CHILLING!!!!!!


 


I loved him in Young Riders
He's a good actor (he can play some real creepy characters). Not sure about his political viewpoints because I'm not very conservative.
the reason for young chickens...
is to keep costs low, so we can afford them--remember that chicken used to be very expensive. However, withdrawal times on steroids are such that chickens are not given steroids because they won't pass FDA standards. They are fed antibiotics in their water because with SO many in one chicken house, they are very vulnerable to disease, but no growth hormones or steroids. The faster maturing birds are due to selective breeding (short gestation=fast change). That is also why everything tastes like chicken. With the faster maturing young birds we eat, the meat actually has very little taste, so it is not as much that other things taste like chicken as it is that chicken does not really taste like anything. (I spent many unhappy classed in STINKY chicken houses in college). I HATE chickens! and Turkeys! but I do like to eat them.
right, al the young and educated, progressive
people voted for Mousavi. Even before all the votes were in, the government already announced a landslide win for Ahmedinejad. Definitely fraud, Ahmedinejad's ratings before the elections were very low, high unemployment rate. How could he win?
I'm assuming you are quite young, am I correct in
that assumption?
Recruiters *prey* on young people. sm
You do realize recruiters are part of the military you scream so loudly that you support. Recruiters have always come to high schools.  I happen to think that the military is a fine career.  No one is twisting anyone's arm.  Military has been a part of our existence since we settled here and had the calvary.  You are suggesting that high school students have no free will.   That isn't logical in the least.
Young black man said he signed up 73 times
xx
Do you know how many young people BUSH KILLED FOR OIL? sm
Even Palin admitted in her interview with the moron Glenn Beck that the war was at least partially about energy resources. Wise up!

Another way to use soldiers
Out of respect for your request, Democrat, I will call myself Starcat.

It seems to me the last sentence sums it up very well, but Bush doesn't have the guts for that, does he? Just canned questions and canned answers.




Bush Teleconference With Soldiers Staged

By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press WriterThu Oct 13, 4:35 PM ET

It was billed as a conversation with U.S. troops, but the questions President Bush asked on a teleconference call Thursday were choreographed to match his goals for the war in Iraq and Saturday's vote on a new Iraqi constitution.

This is an important time, Allison Barber, deputy assistant defense secretary, said, coaching the soldiers before Bush arrived. The president is looking forward to having just a conversation with you.

Barber said the president was interested in three topics: the overall security situation in Iraq, security preparations for the weekend vote and efforts to train Iraqi troops.

As she spoke in Washington, a live shot of 10 soldiers from the Army's 42nd Infantry Division and one Iraqi soldier was beamed into the Eisenhower Executive Office Building from Tikrit — the birthplace of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

I'm going to ask somebody to grab those two water bottles against the wall and move them out of the camera shot for me, Barber said.

A brief rehearsal ensued.

OK, so let's just walk through this, Barber said. Captain Kennedy, you answer the first question and you hand the mike to whom?

Captain Smith, Kennedy said.

Captain. Smith? You take the mike and you hand it to whom? she asked.

Captain Kennedy, the soldier replied.

And so it went.

If the question comes up about partnering — how often do we train with the Iraqi military — who does he go to? Barber asked.

That's going to go to Captain Pratt, one of the soldiers said.

And then if we're going to talk a little bit about the folks in Tikrit — the hometown — and how they're handling the political process, who are we going to give that to? she asked.

Before he took questions, Bush thanked the soldiers for serving and reassured them that the U.S. would not pull out of Iraq until the mission was complete.

So long as I'm the president, we're never going to back down, we're never going to give in, we'll never accept anything less than total victory, Bush said.

The president told them twice that the American people were behind them.

You've got tremendous support here at home, Bush said.

Less than 40 percent in an AP-Ipsos poll taken in October said they approved of the way Bush was handling Iraq. Just over half of the public now say the Iraq war was a mistake.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Thursday's event was coordinated with the Defense Department but that the troops were expressing their own thoughts. With satellite feeds, coordination often is needed to overcome technological challenges, such as delays, he said.

I think all they were doing was talking to the troops and letting them know what to expect, he said, adding that the president wanted to talk with troops on the ground who have firsthand knowledge about the situation.

The soldiers all gave Bush an upbeat view of the situation.

The president also got praise from the Iraqi soldier who was part of the chat.

Thank you very much for everything, he gushed. I like you.

On preparations for the vote, 1st Lt. Gregg Murphy of Tennessee said: Sir, we are prepared to do whatever it takes to make this thing a success. ... Back in January, when we were preparing for that election, we had to lead the way. We set up the coordination, we made the plan. We're really happy to see, during the preparation for this one, sir, they're doing everything.

On the training of Iraqi security forces, Master Sgt. Corine Lombardo from Scotia, N.Y., said to Bush: I can tell you over the past 10 months, we've seen a tremendous increase in the capabilities and the confidences of our Iraqi security force partners. ... Over the next month, we anticipate seeing at least one-third of those Iraqi forces conducting independent operations.

Lombardo told the president that she was in New York City on Nov. 11, 2001, when Bush attended an event recognizing soldiers for their recovery and rescue efforts at Ground Zero. She said the troops began the fight against terrorism in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and were proud to continue it in Iraq.

I thought you looked familiar, Bush said, and then joked: I probably look familiar to you, too.

Paul Rieckhoff, director of the New York-based Operation Truth, an advocacy group for U.S. veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, denounced the event as a carefully scripted publicity stunt. Five of the 10 U.S. troops involved were officers, he said.

If he wants the real opinions of the troops, he can't do it in a nationally televised teleconference, Rieckhoff said. He needs to be talking to the boots on the ground and that's not a bunch of captains.

Copyright © 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
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Soldiers are no different than anyone else....
in that there are those who disagree with this administration and the war. However, the overwhelming majority of the military respect the commander in chief and they believe in their mission. But, if you only watch CNN and liberal media, you will not hear from those soldiers. For every article from a liberal source you find that Bush did not listen to leaders, I can find one from a conservative source to counter. We will have to agree to disagree. I do not find this administration stubborn...I find this administration trying to stick to its guns so to speak, doing what is best in the long run for this country as far as countering terrorism. I know you do not understand nor want to understand the danger; however, I do. Every time Reid or Pelosi do something stupid, the liberal media lauds them as heroes and you can go right to the Arab news outlets and see how they pick it up and run with it. Al Qaeda must be lovin life right now. And that makes me SICK.

As to the half staff, talk about stubborness...I do not know and still do not understand why you cling to that as some kind of evidence that Bush doesn't care about the soldiers or people in Iraq, because he ordered a half staff for the VA Tech victims. And why you would say just because we have always done it that way... sheesh. Hanging onto this just screams at me that it is your problem with Bush personally and nothing else. I cannot see how you can find fault with the half staff and criticize the man for showing up at Va Tech. And..frankly...he cannot control what the governor said, but that being said...I do not understand the reaction of the left to it. But then I do not understand the reaction of the left to much of anything. I do not understand how you profess compassion for the Iraqi civilians yet want to cut and run and leave them to the terrorist thugs. That makes absolutely no sense to me. A President showing compassion for those kids at VA Tech, and you don't like that...what kind of sense does that make? The President shows compassion meeting with families of fallen soldiers, and if you look at him you can tell the toll this has all taken on him personally...if you took the time to look...not that you give a darn. I would like to say I understand you, but I don't. I used to think I did, but you have changed. It kinda reminds me of the at commercial I once saw that said: *You will be assimilated. Sadly, I believe you have been.


Who are these many soldiers?
I would be interested in knowing. I did not say you or anyone was Anti American...do not put words in my mouth. You used the word patriotic, I used it back to you. I said it was not illegal...and it is not. Congress voted for it. It is not illegal. If a soldier said it was immoral it is his right, like it is your right. However, when you talk about pulling funding when we have troops in battle, yes, I think that is unpatriotic, and if a soldier said we should pull funding, yes, I would say he was unpatriotic too. I have never heard a soldier say so. I have certainly never heard "many" soldiers call the war immoral either.
For the soldiers

As a tribute to our soldiers I felt a strong need to post this.  As a prior US Army soldier I was proud of my country when I served and I am proud of all our soldiers in today's Army, and proud of anyone who decides (past, present, and future), that they love our country so much and the freedoms it offers us to give their time to the military.  This is no small step.  Your whole life changes in the blink of an eye (or however long it takes you to sign your name) and you will never be the same again or look at things the same as you did before. 


The election recently has brought this to mind.  I can remember the times my mom sending me an absentee ballot to vote and when I turned it in to my First Sergeant he looked at it and said Soldiers do not have the right to vote.  You are a soldier in the Army and you will serve your country.  We were "An Army of One" and our individual viewpoints do not matter.  (When I joined J. Carter was president and this was the next election when Carter/Regan were running).  So I threw my ballot in the garbage and followed my First Sergeant's order as a soldier is trained to do.


I have been reading that 68% of our veterans support J. McCain and only 23% support B. Obama.  There is a post below that has an article that is focusing on only those 23%.  In any organization you are going to have disgruntled employees, but if you were trying to judge a company would you base your decision on the few disgruntled or what the company employees have to say as a whole about their company.


Here are what some of the veterans are saying about their choices (link will follow below to the actual article) - This is how many in the military feels. 


Most military will not vote for Obama, with every rule there is an exception but I personally know that the majority of the military will never vote for someone like him!


Because he is too inexperienced, and unfit to be the commander in chief of the Military!


His stance on foreign policy terrifies me!


He preaches change, but never says what that change will entail, but if you look at his record you can deduce that the change he talks about is a dumbed down version socialism, which sounds nice on paper but never works!


I’d much rather have a Commander in Chief who’s been in the military and one who knows what war is like, and McCain has 2 sons who are both in the Marine Corps and have fought in Iraq…


I’m sick of people telling me that they need to pull the troops out, when I am trying as hard as I can to rehabilitate and get back out there to finish the job! pulling us out would undo everything that we’ve worked for, everything that I sweat and bled for out there, everything that some very dear friends have died for! And by pulling us out you’d be saying that what we did didn’t amount to anything, and those lives lost were in vein.


There is a responsible way of pulling the troops out and there is an irresponsible way. If we just got pulled out of there then there would be a vacuum effect that would turn Iraq into more of a terrorist breeding ground than it ever was before, more so than even Afghanistan. And that would undo everything that we worked so hard to accomplish!!! I have been for this war from the very beginning, and even after facing death, being shot, and having all the surgeries I’ve had since I’ve been home I believe in the cause now more than ever. But even if you opposed the war to begin with we can’t abandon those people now it would be selfish, reckless, and utterly irresponsible to do so and would actually make things much worse for us in the long run.


I’m not the biggest McCain supporter there are many issues I don’t agree with him on but he at least understands all of this, he understands what we are going through over there, he understands combat, and he understands what is at stake in this war that the American people have seemingly abandoned and forgotten, not only our future but the future of an entire nation of people is at risk if we give in and pull out!


Some people don’t think it’s our responsibility to fight for other countries and stabilize their governments but as I’ve said before in previous blogs “It’s a good thing France didn’t have that attitude during our revolution, otherwise we never would have won our own Independence!!!”


Obama is not a competent Commander in Chief! You tell me what exactly he stands for???????? CHANGE? what the he!! is he gonna change? HOPE? what kind of hope? are you kidding me? he never says what the he!! he’s talking about, he just throws out what people want to hear but never provides a solution!!! Most people I talk to that say they’re gonna vote for him can’t even answer those questions, but they’re gonna vote for him because someone they know and respect says they are gonna vote for him! Why don’t you at least look into it yourself and make an educated decision! I can at least respect that! But that doesn’t seem to be the case in most people I’ve come across.


http://twana.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/veterans-against-obama/


One other note is that we need a person like McCain who will be workign towards winning the war and bring our troops home as the hero's they are.  Not Obama's idea of pulling them all out irresponsibly and then they'll end up like the soldier's after the Vietnam War.  They'll be called everything you can thing of (invader's, murderers, etc.).  They'll be treated the same exact way the soldier's were treated from the Vietnam War.


I pray for our troops every day, and will pray until the election is over the the right person (McCain), will win this election.


Do you actually know any soldiers?
Are you honestly suggesting that the soldiers who are on the front lines are less informed than you are?

You think you 'have more opportunity to see the big picture and the real motives behind it' than the men and women putting their lives on the line.

Lady, please get a grip.

Maybe go volunteer at a VA Hospital. Then perhaps you will stop preaching your uninformed views from your keyboard.
I am sure that our soldiers would sm
rather shoot these terrorists too. They can't, they have to do what they have to do to get information out of them.

I can think a whole lot worse I would do to them that would get the information out of them a whole lot faster. Think I will save that though.

Sounds like you want to create a military force of a bunch of "mamby pambies" who do nothing but make sure the terrorists/prisoners are so comfy in their little beds. Good grief should we sing them to sleep to?

What do you think they do to Americans when they capture them? A whole lot more than we ever do to them. Come down to reality will ya?
Who was rude? I just said she sounds young. You are just mad cuz Obama is winning
so everything i say is hateable from your point... well you can kiss my grits lady...you cannot come to my victory party... no snotty argumentative loser rednecks allowed.

It is new kid on the block as a national entity. 60 years young.
I don't need to consult Wikipedia. I've witnessed and dealt with Israeli atrocities first hand over the past 40+ years. Palestine has always been of interest to me. Israel's theft of Palestine occurred in my birth year.

In response to your oh-so-typical anti-Semite accusation, my issues are not with the people of faith in any religion. Rather, I take strong exception to the ugly politicized version of Jewish nationalism/Zionism in much the same way I do with politicized Islam. Palestinians did not make this into a religious war. For them, it is a question of national identity, as you very well know. So let's not pretend this is about hatred of Jews. The shame is on you to try to drag God into the ungodly.

My artificial intelligence includes 4 decades of dedicated research, personal acquaintance with scores of Palestinians, too numerous to count Arabs and progressive Jews who do not identify with the blood-thirsty behavior of their so-called leadership, political activism, association by marriage, relatives and the fact that I have lived in the region and experienced first-hand the devastation exacted at the hand of Israel.

Sabra and Shatila took me off any high horse I may have ever been on. You might want to remember that horror and dismount yourself. You are not talking to some ill-informed US media drone here, so don't try to clobber me with your "we were there first" nonsense. You and I both know that is hogwash and from where I sit, you are the one who is riding around in that bubble of blather.

Bottom line time. It's the occupation, stupid. Zionists will never have a moment's peace as long as they can't deal with that one universal truth. One only has to inspect the bloodshed statistics at the hands of the Israelis and the history of the wars they have fought to understand who the terrorists are and who cannot deal with the very notion of peace on earth. The ice water that runs through your veins and your lack of responsibiity and remorse over the pain and suffering Israel has caused speaks volumes about the humanitarian aspects of this tragedy.

I'm not in this for the support I may or may not get from them. For me, it is a simple question of right and wrong, but for the record, I enjoy open acceptance among my Arab friends and relatives. My relationships with them have enriched my life beyond measure.
of course he lied - but no one died - he had a young daughter to protect...
All men would lie - when, in fact, it was nobody's freakin' business........that was Hillary's problem
Yes, our soldiers deserved better.

I think these are fallen soldiers...nm

soldiers votes
you know, on the news last evening, in a very mild manner, it was mentioned that maybe only 30% of the overseas military's votes will be counted this election, due to mail problems, time constraints, etc. OUTRAGEOUS!!! To boot, this also happened 4 yr ago, and still no one has fixed it (tho 1 senator is allegedly trying). Where are all the hanging chad type screaming complaints, the concern for the (hate this word now): disenfranchised????  IMO this would not be a hard problem to fix, so why is it still broke?  A soldier's vote should be most definitely counted, WITHOUT FAIL.  Grrrrrr.  not to mention, that in Ohio, reported also last night, the homeless can now list their park benches as their addresses, and vote.  Mind you, you cannot collect help in the form of welfare/food stamps etc without a solid normal address, but you can vote.  nevermind that the homeless are likely uninformed. (don't feed or house them, just give them a ballot and tell them who to vote for...) all the while, our military's votes are casually tossed aside, with an "oh well..."  i am still fuming the next day.
Tell that to the soldiers there who have heard
##
And you know this, how? Talk to the soldiers
We have several in our town who have been stationed down there and they will certainly tell you it scares the he!! out of them to see Obama is shutting Gitmo down. They personally have heard those incarcerated bragging about what has been done and laughing at the U.S. til the next attack when they heard Obama is closing it down.

Yea, why don't ya just feel sorry for all those poor guys down there, right up until the next attack!
Winter Soldiers

Short script on article of our war on terror - a sad commentary on what is really going on and how our soldiers are responding to it.......


http://www.truthout.org/031709A


Winter Soldiers Speak Out in Europe



by: Maya Schenwar, t r u t h o u t | Report




USPennsylvania before the Winter Solider hearings last March." src=http://www.truthout.org/files/images/A1_031709A.jpg>

US veterans march from Philadelphia to Valley Forge before the Winter Solider hearings last March. (Photo: Susie Husted)




    Last March, a group of soldiers and veterans gathered in Washington, DC, to recount their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. They spent three days testifying, confessing and mourning. They revealed atrocities never before spoken of - the brutal murders of civilians, the destruction of homes and villages, the rape and sexual assault of both civilians and US military women - and displayed photos and video footage to back up their claims. The event was titled "Winter Soldier," harkening back to the 1971 Winter Soldier Investigation, in which veterans gathered in Detroit to give testimony about war crimes they had committed or witnessed in Vietnam. Both Winter Soldiers zeroed in on the US military policy's devastating effects, straight from the mouths of those charged with carrying out that policy.


Full article excerpt can be found at:  http://www.truthout.org/031709A


    


Obama drank and snorted cocaine when he was a young person....
does that mean you are not going to vote for him? Geez, what a cheap shot. You accept the same behavior in him and you want to rip kids who aren't even running for office. Just nasty little rascals, aren't you?
Yes - there was a young surgeon featured on one local TV program about this mess. SM
I didn't catch the first part of the segment, but he is having to think about joining the military medical corps because he had just opened his practice when the recession hit and can't pay his loans, and there aren't any openings in other practices around here now.
Yeah, and also I wonder how these soldiers would feel...sm
about the party who CLAIMS to support them but disrespect their families when they speak out. After all, did they not fight so freedoms like, freedom of speech, would be guaranteed?

I understand that families speaking out are not protected from retort but it is hypocritical to accuse liberals of not supporting the troops when you are the ones blasting fallen soldier's families. What do they just *support* conservative soldiers with conservative families???

I'm just sayin'
Murder charges for 3 U.S. soldiers..sm
I have mixed feelings about this y'all. There is no doubt in my mind that mental issues are involved given the situation. However, they could have just been following orders. Or, worse just murdered the Iraqis on their own volition and threatened a fellow soldier.

Definitely worth the investigation, which sends the message that we (the US) does not tolerate this type behavior from our soldiers.

---------------------------------
Murder charges for 3 U.S. soldiers
They are accused of killing 3 Iraqis

Julian E. Barnes, Los Angeles Times

Tuesday, June 20, 2006
(06-20) 04:00 PDT Washington -- Three U.S. soldiers have been charged with the premeditated murder of three Iraqi detainees as well as with threatening the life of a fellow soldier who they feared would challenge their accounts of the deaths, military officials said Monday.

The three Americans were identified as staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard, Spc. William B. Hunsaker and Pfc. Corey R. Clagett, all members of the 3rd Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division. They were charged with shooting the detainees May 9 during a military operation near Thar Thar Canal in Salahuddin province north of Baghdad.

A murder conviction in the military carries the possibility of the death penalty. The accused soldiers are being held in Kuwait, a Pentagon official said. No personal information was available Monday about the soldiers.

The latest charges come as the military is conducting a separate investigation of the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha in November. Military investigators are examining possible murder charges against a group of Marines for those deaths. In addition, seven other marines and a Navy corpsman are being held in the brig at Camp Pendleton (San Diego County) in connection with the death of an Iraqi man in another town, Hamandiya. Since the start of the Iraq war, the military has brought criminal charges against at least 20 other service members in deaths of Iraqis.

Military officials first mentioned the Salahuddin investigation in a brief news release June 16. But details of how the three soldiers shot the men, near the Muthana Chemical Complex, have remained sketchy. The military has not said why the three Iraqis were being detained.

In addition to murder, the soldiers were charged with conspiracy and with threatening another soldier. Military officials said the accused initially reported they shot the detainees while they were trying to flee.

But that account was contradicted by a junior soldier who saw the shooting. Defense Department charge sheets released Monday identify the object of the threats as Bradley Mason, an Army private first class. The legal papers do not specify whether Mason is the soldier who witnessed the killings.

The accused soldiers are charged with threatening to kill Mason on May 29, as the group was traveling from its own operating base to Camp Speicher, near Tikrit, where the Criminal Investigation Division has an office.

You better not say anything, or I swear I will kill you, Girouard allegedly told Mason, according to charge sheets.

Girouard is accused of threatening to kill Mason six different times in the weeks after the detainees died. Hunsaker is accused of threatening Mason four times, and Clagett twice.

They face a hearing to determine if there is enough evidence for a court-martial. The first proceeding, known as an Article 32 hearing, is likely several weeks away, a military officer said.

The military has not executed anyone since April 1961, but nine people are on death row, including a sergeant in the 101st Airborne who killed two officers and wounded 14 soldiers in Kuwait in March 2003.
These are fallen soldiers not WTC victims

And the why is pretty clear.  By the way, this was addressed to Liberals who definitely understand and appreciate the ***why***


Yet many soldiers also call the war immoral and
.
Very sad. Our soldiers are giving their lives....sm
and they are coming home severly injured to less than adequate medical care after excellent care in the field, no psychological counseling, no support for their families, deplorable living conditions, and on and on. I believe this war is wrong but support the troops 100%. Disgraceful!
I fully support our soldiers -
As I have said before, I have a son who just graduated basic training last week, I was a soldier's wife for 20 years (one who served in the Gulf War during our marriage and is currently in Iraq now), and my father served in the Korean war, but I still think that the Iraq war is pointless and we do not need to be there. I don't think we should ever have been there, but definitely should be home now.

Even the Iraqi people don't want us to get out and come home and let them handle their own country.

Hating the war does not mean hating the soldiers - it means wanting the ones that are left to be home and alive and in one piece!
We have brought home 2 soldiers
recently to our town, unfortunately, it was too late for them.
Young Voters Fall for Obama’s Promises Without Any Historical Perspective..sm
Election 2008: Young Voters Fall for Obama’s Promises Without Any Historical Perspective

By Liz Peek
Financial Columnist

Today we will almost surely elect Barack Obama President of the United States. A new generation will vote for Mr. Obama –- a generation that has grown up with the Internet. This new crop of voters has access to more information than any that came before, and yet has swallowed Obama’s impossible campaign promises and contradictory policies just as trustingly as those who in earlier times looked for a chicken in every pot.

Welcome to the disillusionment of another generation. I don’t anticipate this inevitable consequence of today’s election with any glee, believe me. To see young people turning out in droves to vote for this eloquent, attractive young man is inspiring. To hear them buy into his promises, though, is sobering.

For instance, we are told that the image of the United States has suffered mightily under George Bush, and that Obama is going to usher in a veritable global love-fest. Would those falling over themselves to herald our new president include the peoples of South Korea and Colombia –- allies both — whose much-needed free trade agreements with the U.S. Obama has opposed?

How about our neighbors in Canada or Mexico; will Obama’s promised re-write of NAFTA endear them to the U.S.? Is it possible that Obama’s opposition to free trade demonstrates his gratitude to labor unions –- groups that aroused his ire by donating to the Clinton and Edwards campaigns but suddenly were much more warmly welcomed when they began shifting funds his way?

Over a year ago I wrote a tongue-in-cheek column defending the status quo against the pressing demand for “Change” writ large. While politicians of all stripes were heralding new directions, they were ignoring, for example, that the U.S. has been blessed for many years with low inflation. Voters in their 30s and 40s could not be expected to remember the devastating inflation of the 1970s. They couldn’t be expected to understand how double-digit price hikes threw the fear of God into retirees on fixed incomes and created the same kind of paralysis in lending that we are witnessing today.

They might not connect the dots between Obama’s enthusiasm for the Employee Free Choice Act, a resurgence of unionization, and wage-driven inflation. They might not realize that restricting trade with China, re-writing NAFTA and barring adoption of free trade agreements with Colombia and South Korea will indeed drive prices higher.

The United States has also enjoyed a period of stable employment. The new generation has never seen serious unemployment. True, they have witnessed shifts in employment as manufacturing jobs have been lost to lower-priced locales. But they have never seen unemployment rates go much above 6%, where it is now. In 1982, when unemployment reached 9.7%, Obama was 21 years old. I doubt he was much focused on the dismal state of the economy. Voters, however, were focused, and gave Ronald Reagan a mandate to set the country on a new course –- one which encouraged growth through lower taxes, expanded trade and deregulation.

That program was adopted by both Democrats and Republicans because it worked. People in their thirties and forties cannot imagine that raising taxes on successful people might harm the economy. That’s because they weren’t around to witness the exodus of talent from England –- a country wherein punitive marginal tax rates squashed incentives and drove out anyone who could locate elsewhere. Margaret Thatcher didn’t just join the Reagan Revolution –- she clung to it for dear life.

What young voters have seen, and have responded to, is the collapse of Wall Street. Because bankers, politicians and speculators conspired to create the worst investment bubble in modern times, we are about to abandon the policies that brought millions of people around the world into the middle class. Policies that gave people real hope –- not just its rhetorical facsimile. This is a tragedy.



http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/11/04/lpeek_1104/#more-2415


Waiting to get blown up...from a soldiers mouth..sm
BAGHDAD, July 26 Army Staff Sgt. Jose Sixtos considered the simple question about morale for more than an hour. But not until his convoy of armored Humvees had finally rumbled back into the Baghdad military base, and the soldiers emptied the ammunition from their machine guns, and passed off the bomb-detecting robot to another patrol, did he turn around in his seat and give his answer.

Think of what you hate most about your job. Then think of doing what you hate most for five straight hours, every single day, sometimes twice a day, in 120-degree heat, he said. Then ask how morale is.

Frustrated? You have no idea, he said.

As President Bush plans to deploy more troops in Baghdad, U.S. soldiers who have been patrolling the capital for months describe a deadly and infuriating mission in which the enemy is elusive and success hard to find. Each day, convoys of Humvees and Bradley Fighting Vehicles leave Forward Operating Base Falcon in southern Baghdad with the goal of stopping violence between warring Iraqi religious sects, training the Iraqi army and police to take over the duty, and reporting back on the availability of basic services for Iraqi civilians.

But some soldiers in the 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment, 1st Armored Division -- interviewed over four days on base and on patrols -- say they have grown increasingly disillusioned about their ability to quell the violence and their reason for fighting. The battalion of more than 750 people arrived in Baghdad from Kuwait in March, and since then, six soldiers have been killed and 21 wounded.

It sucks. Honestly, it just feels like we're driving around waiting to get blown up. That's the most honest answer I could give you, said Spec. Tim Ivey, 28, of San Antonio, a muscular former backup fullback for Baylor University. You lose a couple friends and it gets hard.

No one wants to be here, you know, no one is truly enthused about what we do, said Sgt. Christopher Dugger, the squad leader. We were excited, but then it just wears on you -- there's only so much you can take. Like me, personally, I want to fight in a war like World War II. I want to fight an enemy. And this, out here, he said, motioning around the scorched sand-and-gravel base, the rows of Humvees and barracks, toward the trash-strewn streets of Baghdad outside, there is no enemy, it's a faceless enemy. He's out there, but he's hiding.

We're trained as an Army to fight and destroy the enemy and then take over, added Dugger, 26, of



Reno, Nev. But I don't think we're trained enough to push along a country, and that's what we're actually doing out here.

It's frustrating, but we are definitely a help to these people, he said. I'm out here with the guys that I know so well, and I couldn't picture myself being anywhere else.

'Never-Ending Battle'

After a five-hour patrol on Saturday through southern Baghdad neighborhoods, soldiers from the 1st Platoon sat on wooden benches in an enclosed porch outside their barracks. Faces flushed and dirty from the grit and a beating sun, they smoked cigarettes and tossed them at a rusted can that said Butts.

The commanders in Baghdad and the Pentagon are looking at the big picture all the time, but for us, we don't see no big picture, it's just always another bomb out here, said Spec. Joshua Steffey, 24, of Asheville, N.C. The company's commanding officer, Capt. Douglas A. DiCenzo of Plymouth, N.H., and his gunner, Spec. Robert E. Blair of Ocala, Fla., were killed by a roadside bomb in May.

Steffey said he wished somebody would explain to us, 'Hey, this is what we're working for.' With a stream of expletives, he said he could not care less if Iraq's free or if they're a democracy.

I mean, if you compare the casualty count from this war to, say, World War II, you know obviously it doesn't even compare, Fulcher said. But World War II, the big picture was clear -- you know you're fighting because somebody was trying to take over the world, basically. This is like, what did we invade here for?

How did it become, 'Well, now we have to rebuild this place from the ground up'? Fulcher asked.

He kept talking. They say we're here and we've given them freedom, but really what is that? You know, what is freedom? You've got kids here who can't go to school. You've got people here who don't have jobs anymore. You've got people here who don't have power, he said. You know, so yeah, they've got freedom now, but when they didn't have freedom, everybody had a job.

Steffey got up to leave the porch and go to bed.

You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing, he said. We're far too deep in this now....
Yeah!! Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming...
Got to get down to it - get rid of the current regime!!!!
And where do these "fresh" soldiers exist? Appalachia?
You seem to forget some of our troops have served 5 tours.......Army personnel are committing suicide at an alarming rate.....there is no draft....the whole premise for the war on Iraq was based on deceit.....can't you dig up some other reason to hate Obama? Your arguments are becoming less and less convincing...even though they have been transparent BS from the get go, IMHO.
Iraqi Soldiers Speak Out in Favor of Murtha

On January 5, 2006, Congressman Murtha held a town hall meeting with Cong. Jim Moran (D-VA 08).


The soldier who asked the first question served in Afghanistan and said that morale among troops is high and that he would gladly serve in Iraq today. His comment was the only one replayed by Fox News the next day.

But the majority of soldiers in attendance spoke out against the current policy. Fox News did not broadcast their remarks.


Here are some excerpts.


John Brumes, Infantry Sgt. US Army:


Everything that the Bush Adminstration told us about that mission in Iraq is absolutely incorrect. Furthermore, I'd like to say ... I came home to no job, no health insurance. Until we take care of this war, we can't take care of the problems that matter like health care.

I've witnessed both ends... Congressman Murtha, I implore you to keep doing what you're doing.



John Powers, Capt. 1st Armored Division, served 12 months in Iraq:


The thing that hits me the most is the accountability. ... Where is the accountability for those men [who took us to war], as well as where is the accountability for Paul Bremmer, who misplaced millions of dollars and claims to keep accountability in the war zone?... I know that if we lost $500 we would be court marshaled. So where is the accountability for this leadership?

Garin Reppenhagen, served as a sniper in Iraq for a year in the First Infantry Division:


My question is also about accountability. The soldiers that you see, Congressman Murtha, at the hospitals... those are my friends. After coming back, being a veteran, my question is why? Why did we go to this war, why the hell did it happen, why are we in this condition. A lot of soldiers are debating whether this war was fraudulent to begin with. And there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. A lot of Americans now are debating the fact over whether or not the war was fraudulent in the first place. How come there hasn't been an investigation on the fraudulent lead up to the war by this Administration?

C-SPAN has the full broadcast here.



 

Halliburton Didn't Protect Soldiers' Water
(I wonder what else they won't protect if/when they're put in charge after the Dubai deal goes through.  And I believe Bush will find a way to push it through right under Americans' noses, since I believe his loyalty lies clearly with rich Arabs and not with the safety of Americans.)

 

Updated:2006-03-16 07:52:03

 

Halliburton Didn't Protect Soldiers' Water

 

Internal Memo Warns of 'Mass Sickness or Death'

ap


WASHINGTON (March 16) - Halliburton Co. failed to protect the water supply it is paid to purify for U.S. soldiers throughout Iraq, in one instance missing contamination that could have caused mass sickness or death, an internal company report concluded.


The report, obtained by The Associated Press, said the company failed to assemble and use its own water purification equipment, allowing contaminated water directly from the Euphrates River to be used for washing and laundry at Camp Ar Ramadi in Ramadi, Iraq.


The problems discovered last year at that site - poor training, miscommunication and lax record keeping - occurred at Halliburton's other operations throughout Iraq, the report said.


Countrywide, all camps suffer to some extent from all or some of the deficiencies noted, Wil Granger, Theatre Water Quality Manager in the war zone for Halliburton's KBR subsidiary, wrote in his May 2005 report.


AP reported earlier this year allegations from whistleblowers about the Camp Ar Ramadi incident, but Halliburton never made public Granger's internal report alleging wider problems.


The water quality expert warned Halliburton the problems will have to be dealt with at a very elevated level of management to protect health and safety of U.S. personnel.


Halliburton said Wednesday it conducted a second review last year that found no evidence of any illnesses in Iraq from water and it believes some of its earlier conclusions were incomplete and inaccurate. The company declined to release the second report.


The company said it has worked closely with the Army to develop standards and take action to ensure that the water provided in Iraq is safe and of the highest quality possible.


Halliburton was headed by Vice President Dick Cheney for several years before he ran for vice president. Its KBR subsidiary, also known as Kellogg Brown & Root, works under contract to provide a number of services to the U.S. military in Iraq, including providing water and purifying it.


The contaminated, non-chlorinated water at Ar Ramadi was discovered in March 2005 in a commode by Ben Carter, a KBR water expert at the base. In an interview, Carter said he resigned after KBR barred him from notifying the military and senior company officials about the untreated water.


A supervisor at Ar Ramadi told me to stop e-mailing company officials outside the base and warned that informing the military was none of my concern, Carter said. He said he threatened to sue if company officials didn't let him be examined to determine whether he suffered medical problems from exposure to the contaminated water.


Granger's report cited several countrywide problems:


A lack of training for key personnel. Theatre wide there is no formalized training for anyone at any level in concerns to water operations.


Confusion between KBR and military officials over their respective roles. For instance, each assumed the other would chlorinate the water at Ar Ramadi for any uses that would require the treatment.


Inadequate or nonexistent records that could have caught problems in advance. Little or no documentation was kept on water inventories, safety stand-downs, audits of water quality, deliveries, inspections and logs showing alterations or modifications to water systems.


Relying on employees the company identified as semiskilled labor, and paid as unskilled workers in the pay structure.


The report said the event at Ar Ramadi could have been prevented if KBR's Reverse Osmosis Units on the site had been assembled, instead of relying on the military's water production facilities.


This event should be considered a 'near miss' as the consequences of these actions could have been very severe resulting in mass sickness or death, Granger wrote.


The report said that KBR officials at Ar Ramadi tried to keep the contamination from senior company officials.


The event that was submitted in a report to local camp management should have been classified as a recordable occurrence and communicated to senior management in a timely manner, Granger wrote. The primary awareness to this event came through threat of domestic litigation.


Beginning last May, Halliburton said it began using its equipment to remove contaminants, bacteria, and viruses in Ar Ramadi, and disinfect the water with chlorine. The company said KBR has worked closely with the Army to develop safe water standards.


It said its subsequent review in August-September 2005 found nonpotable water used for washing was effectively filtered to remove at least 99 percent of the parasite giardia and 90 percent of viruses. The Ar Ramadi water also tested negative for bacteria, Halliburton added.