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The last paragraph is why I posted it.

Posted By: piglet on 2007-12-14
In Reply to: And you know I couldn't resist commenting...;) - Observer

I am not at all convinced that the issue of abortion is a liberal or conservative stance. I think it tends to be tied to conservative because of its religious roots, but even that is debatable. Women throughout history regardless of religion have been having abortions. I believe it simply to be your own belief that really should not be attached to a political process.

As war is always a political process, the comparison isn't really fair is it? and I really, really hope that you are not referring to the war on Iraq because there is just too much refuting evidence to continue to believe we were justified in invading Iraq in the guise that we were defending ourselves.

How can you be pro-choice in the voice of war knowing that the very nature of it kills more people than abortion ever could? Just the war in Iraq alone has probably killed more people than the abortions in the United States in the past 100 years.

Makes no sense to me.


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The last paragraph of

this article is just tooooooo good. I would LOVE to see the Bush supporters actually really "go to Iraq," and for free!!!!



















Published on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 by UExpress.com

Sacrifice? Count Me Out
If You Supported the War, Pay For It

by Ted Rall
 


If America is truly on a war footing," Thom Shanker asks in the New York Times, "why is so little sacrifice asked of the nation at large?" Military recruiters are coming up short of volunteers, yet neither party is pushing for a draft. No one is proposing a tax increase to cover the $60 billion annual cost of the Iraq and Afghan wars. There are no World War II-style war bond drives, no victory gardens, not even gas rationing. Back here in the fatherland, only "support our troops" car ribbons indicate that we're at war--and they aren't even bumper stickers, they're magnetic. Apparently Americans aren't even willing to sacrifice the finish on their automobiles to promote the cause.


"Nobody in America is asked to sacrifice, except us," the paper quotes an officer who just returned from a year in rose-petal-paved Iraq. "[Symbolic signs of support are] just not enough," grumbles a brigadier general. "There has to be more," he demands. "The absence of a call for broader national sacrifice in a time of war has become a near constant topic of discussion among officers and enlisted personnel," the general claims.


Northwestern University professor Charles Moskos says: "The political leaders are afraid to ask the public for any real sacrifice, which doesn't speak too highly of the citizenry."


To which I say: Screw that. It's not my duty to suffer for this pointless war. I've been against it all along, and you can stick your victory garden where the desert sun can't penetrate.


I was among hundreds of thousands of Americans who marched against invading Iraq in early 2003. Tens of millions cheered us on. The largest mass protest movement in history (so designated by the Guinness Book of World Records) brought together pacifists, humanists and people like me. We knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. We didn't believe that the same White House that propped up dictatorships in Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia--that had, when it suited them, supported Saddam--could possibly be interested in liberating the people of Iraq. When we scrutinized coverage of the CIA's prewar analyses, we found that there wasn't any. There were only reports dating back to 1998, ancient history in the intelligence business. We absolutely didn't trust Dick "cakewalk" Cheney's breezy predictions.


Bush and Cheney ignored our concerns. Instead of building a solid case and bipartisan political consensus, they bullied and lied to Congress and the UN to scam us into this unwinnable war. Who can blame them? They work for ExxonMobil and Halliburton, not the American people. But they, not us, broke Iraq. It can't be fixed, it's not our fault and it's not our problem. There's no reason to relinquish our creature comforts to back their grubby little oil grab.


The most galling aspect of this fiasco is that it was entirely predictable. I know; I predicted it. Here's my column written back in July 2002:


"Most experts expect Iraq to disintegrate into civil war after an overthrow of Saddam's oppressive Ba'ath Party," I wrote. "Opinion of the United States is now at an all-time low among Muslims around the world. Going after Iraq will make matters worse. Why give radical anti-American Islamists even more political ammunition with which to recruit suicide bombers and attract the financial donations that fund their assaults?"


I'm no genius, but even I could see that this war was doomed eight months before the invasion:


"Do the Kurds deserve a homeland? Sure. Would Iraq be better off without Saddam? Probably. But if we're smart, we won't be the ones to blow over this particular house of cards. We have too much to lose and too little to gain in the mess that would certainly ensue."


Did I call that one or what?


David Hendrickson, a scholar at Colorado College, tells the Times: "Bush understands that the support of the public for war--especially the war in Iraq--is conditioned on demanding little of the public." Of course, Bush himself hasn't given up a second of vacation or a single donated dollar, much less one of his hard-partying daughters, to the "war effort." Sacrifice is a hard sell down here among the citizenry when we don't see it starting where it should start, among our leaders.


I'm already sacrificing too much for a war I always believed was stupid and wrong. I'm paying three dollars a gallon for buck-fifty gas and walking through gauntlets of over-armed National Guardboys at airports and bus stations. I'm in greater danger than ever before of getting blown up by a pissed-off fanatic. And I dread the giant tax hike we'll eventually need to pay off Bush's deficit. But these aren't enough sacrifices for Bush and his vainglorious generals, who are planning "a Civilian Reserve, a sort of Peace Corps for professionals. . . a program to seek commitments from bankers, lawyers, doctors, engineers, electricians, plumbers and solid-waste disposal experts to deploy to conflict zones for months at a time on reconstruction assignments, to relieve pressure on the military."


If you voted for Bush, here's your chance to plant your butt where your ridiculous car magnet is, smack dab in the middle of the Sunni Triangle. Good luck.




© 2005 Ted Rall

###


Might we see the whole paragraph?
context, you know, to make a valid decision?
The last paragraph.

Now I know Emanuel is chief of staff and why obama picked him, makes sense.


I agree with the last paragraph, as well.

This is definitely a campaign against the First Amendment, and I believe Bush will do whatever he can to silence people who either disagree with him or who catch him in lies (a full-time job in and of itself).


Bob Geiger - see 2nd paragraph

Ho hum, lost me after second paragraph
x
Your last sentence of the third paragraph was just as...sm
uncalled for, I believe, and untrue.
I like this paragraph in your post....
'For the most part I will find people who live in other countries and are observing what is going on here to be a lot more credible because they do not have an agenda.'

Right, and they are more objective as they are far away from it all.


you should forward that last paragraph
to the White House where they seem to think terrorists can be rational and reasoned with and will play nice with us.
In one paragraph you have not only told me more than I ever wanted to know.

You have outlined and described in perfect detail the problem with why your arguments can never be recognized as anything but dividing. Gt, believe me, this is not all about you, which it always seems to end up being about in your posts.  The fact that you refuse, not fail, but refuse to accept anything, any explanation, any single example of the image you project as well as your close-minedness, is illustrated in every post that you make. 


I agree with the assessment in the last paragraph.sm
They will use kiddie porn and so-called domestic terrorism to limit our use of the Internet. Everything is greatly exaggerated to induce fear, and then you will allow them to slice up more of your liberties.
Yes, and regarding that final paragraph re: Iran
Seymour Hersh has yet to get it wrong, no matter how much the King George and his men attack.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact
Here's your answer, 1st paragraph, 2nd line.
...Parade Magazine ASKED the President-elect, who is also a devoted family man, to get personal and tell us what he wants for his children.

He didn't take out an ad in the newspaper. He simply answered a simple question posed to him by a reporter on assignment. If you had taken the time to read more carefully and weren't in such a hurry to slam the man, you might have noticed that.

There was nothing superficial about his response. In fact, the only superficial thing around here is your post.
That would be great but one paragraph has me a bit leary.

"The announcement comes less than a month after the world's largest maker of microprocessors used in personal computers said it would close plants in Southeast Asia and scale back U.S. operations under a restructuring that affects as many as 6,000 employees."


What do they know? Are they afraid O is going to put extra taxes on businesses that do business overseas (which I hope), or are they being smart? Sorry if my sarcasm shows, but this will still affect 6,000 jobs in the U.S.? Why? Need to do some digging here.


The paragraph about early retirement

That's where DH is. Forced to retire because of no work (road construction). The stimulus money went to 2 cities in my state. The rest of the state got nothing towards road construction or very little.


We didn't get last year's stimulus check because we owed taxes and they put the money towards that. Now he's getting screwed out of the $250 because he wasn't retired when this happened. Never fails.


Remember that cartoon of the guy always under the grey cloud? That's us.


Your last paragraph is absolutely correct.

The UN is definitely weak. It could be because of some of the countries that belong to it have the same ideas as Iran and NK.


I wonder when the UN is going to pay up on their lease for the NY building they occupy. Probably never because they think they are above reproach.


Once again you wasted a whole paragraph telling me how stupid I am SM
without a SINGLE FACT!   I give up with you. You are just too much (or too little). Whateva!
Your 2nd paragraph is complete and utter nonsense. sm
You wrote: 'Besides, a lot of atheists who try to disprove that God ever existed will usually come to the conclusion that there is too much evidence to prove that He does exist. It usually scares the you know what out of them and they become converts.'

And you know this how? I would say show me the evidence to back up this ridiculous claim, but I already know you have none. It's your opinion/religious propaganda, and it's blantantly false. You also have it backwards. You're implying people start out being athiest, then convert to religion. It's the other way around, when religious or secular people start questioning all the improbable/impossible things the bible is overflowing with, in addition to all of its inconsistenties and outright contradictions.

Forgive me if I doubt that you're an expert on athiests, and forgive me if I doubt your critical thinking skills, because religion frowns upon that - you're not supposed to question god or think for yourself, just obey his commands, or should I say, various human interpretations of his commands...

If there was indeed
'too much evidence to prove that He does exist' then everyone would believe in him. How could anyone deny it? They couldn't. But that's just it, there is no evidence to prove it, whereas there actually IS scientific evidence to the contrary, that you apparently are unaware of or haven't investigated.

Instead, you're willing to believe something based only on 'faith.' In every other area of your life where you'd want or even *demand* facts, proof, or concrete evidence before believing something so important, with religion (some) people are all too willing to blindly accept it on faith.

BTW, an athiest doesn't have to DISprove god (you can't prove a negative, anyway), you have to prove that he *does* exist, and you can't. And wouldn't you think if he really existed, he would prove it to the entire world's satisfaction anyway and put an end to the debate and all the relious wars, conflict, genocide, misery, suffering, etc? He'd rather we kill each over it? I think not. It makes no sense.

You also wrote: 'You can say all you want, but you just can't argue with a completely changed life'

Yes, I can argue it. You changed your life because *you* wanted to change it. You! Not some mystical, magical, invisible being in the sky who cares about your every thought and action. People change their lives for the better every day, without religion. IMO, if you hadn't found religion, you would've kept looking until you found something else that worked for you, and it probably would've been a lot healthier than the brainwashing, closed-minded, divisive phenomenon that is religion.

a spokesman for M/P issued the last paragraph so not sure how reliable
that would be. Odd how they added it at the end but did not say if it was a fact. It was supposed to be an investigative article. There is no way of knowing if that is fact, it is only what the McCain people say is true.

Cannot trust anyone it seems.
oops - one paragraph made NO sense of mine..sm

That's not to say that they are not entitled to feel what they feel and they are entitled to their opinions/voice..even though I just reread my post and it could be interpreted that way (and sorry for that) -


(above is the corrected paragraph - sorry *lol*)


This paragraph is in my post...I guess you forgot to read it...nm

Actualy, my cut-and-past job didn't miss the first paragraph
but appreciate your selective reading. Nice name, BTW.
Wow, I can't believe you posted that. sm
considering all else you have posted on these boards.  LOLOLOLOL!!!  Man oh man!
who posted it?
I suspect it was the person who goes under the name Brunson who posted the Army mom post as in the post it talks about C-Span and I kind of thought..mmmmm..this is just one of those crazy right wingers posting to start stuff..So right after the post came through, I checked out the right wing board and Brunson was posting the same thing about checking out C-Span today.  Coincidence?  I dont think so..Two posters within one minute posting about checking out C-Span today? 
She posted this as a
She stated above the reference to the Clinton body count and that it was a conspiracy theory.  The statement of someone above *It seems that people that sue Bush turn up in bad health or dead* is every bit as much a conspiracy theory as this.  Someone on both boards has been trying to spam us with conspiracy theories for days now none of which have an ounce of substance or actual fact behind them.  Most of us can see the difference between conspiracy and an actual story with facts behind them.  It's really hard to get away with conspiracy theories when there is so many facts out there on the net.
This has been posted before. sm

And is in no way or shape complete or accurate.  Rumsfeld served 3 years.  You think a flight instructor is a small job?  That's pretty telling.  Clinton dodged the draft by deferring for a ROTC duty, which he never fulfilled after writing his famous loathing of the military letter. So if we are going to post these lists again and again, let's get it right.


Well, as I posted before...
...it's probably good that you love something, even if it's based on cruelty and mockery. 
Do you really mean what you just posted?
Do you actually liken Gitmo to the Hanoi Hilton? Seriously??
Yes, I just posted it too, right after you. sm
It brought tears to my eyes, that the Obama campaign could do such a thing.

And tears that McCain cares more, quite obviously, of our country and it's symbol.



Sorry. This should be posted
nm
yes! I posted below. Don't let

the Fox zombies drown out the truth on this board. Bless you.


 


When I first posted
I did not know who it was benefitting. I later found out it was benefitting Obama. Either way if it was benefiting McCain I'd still be saying this is not right. 11/4 is voting day. I'd say a sure fire way to comit fraud on the democrats side. Do the right thing and vote on 11/4.
I don't think they have posted the new one....
if they have, I can't find it.
This should have been posted under
nm
I posted before that I liked it better
when it was two boards, a liberal board and a conservative board. More intelligent discussion and less mudslinging back then. Three boards would be great, liberal, conservative and politics for anyone that just want to keep pubbing and demning as you say.
Not the OP who posted........sm
about "the reality of O" but my take on this phrase is that when he takes office and starts bringing to pass things that conservatives have been concerned about (detention/"reeducation" centers, civil army, further division of America, etc.), that will be "the reality of O." In other words, he will be revealed to be the charlatan that the liberals refuse to believe he is. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I really believe this country has made probably the single biggest mistake in our history.
that is exactly why I posted it...n/m
x
I DID! I posted below too!
Sheesh!
I know what I posted.
x
Seeing as this was posted 11/13
And today is 11/17, I would say its a new article.

It's actually more than one person's opinion of Obama. One person may have written the article but thousands and thousands agree with him. Truth hurts.
It may be old to you but I had not seen it until I posted
So what.
you posted it as something

that would delight you.  Coward.  can;t even stand by your own messages.


 


I will say this again. I posted here because

the Red Envelope Project is a political protest again a godless president and his administration.  It is Obama who wants babies murdered on a global scale and wants U. S. taxpayers to fund it. 


The next Red Envelope project will be defending the lives of the elderly, the infirm, the physically challenged, both children and adults, who will not receive healthcare benefits under a universal healthcare system, who will be mandated to have lifesaving measures withheld.  Rationed care.  Will you protest if it is your mother, father, sister, brother or will you say it's their "choice"? 


This is Obama's agenda.  He is a president of death.  Red Envelope Project is a political protest supporting life and its participants are not all Christian.  Do you think it only Christians who think abortion is murder?  If you do, then you are totally uninformed.


Ob, but you do and you just posted it
.
I just posted this elsewhere...
About a friend's dad who recently died. lived in England and was denied CABG because he was too old. how old? He was 55 when he died. His physician admitted CABG would probably have saved his life but TOO OLD at age 55, so they let him die. Yes, we have problems with our system of health care, but at 55 I sure don't think I am too old to be worth saving! I don't want the government telling my physician what he can and cannot do in providing my care nor does my physician want this. I want my physician to make decisions that are based only on what I need to maintain my health, not what some governmental body tells him. And you can bet you bippy if your last name is Clinton, Obama, Pelosi, etc., etc., you won't be denied that CABG, only if your name is smith or Jones or the like.
And I also posted before that I think
gay sex and polygamy are wrong, but I am more lenient to polygamy, but NO groupsex, even animals don't do this.

This is more animalistic than animals behave.

I wish my brother/law will marry me in case my husband dies.

He could, but it is not a MUST.
I posted it for others to see.

And to straighten out where the "spook"/"spooked" reference came from, that it DIDN'T come from the liberals, as you suggested, but it instead came from bigoted Republicans as part of their mailing.


I don't care if you're angry or happy as a clam.


I don't care if you're white, black or purple.


It's 2009, and the south has a rich history of racism.  The only thing to me that is relevant about colors is that the Southern Republicans are showing their true ones, and I don't want them to stop, either. 


The only thing they've got going for them is fear.  If Cheney isn't lucky enough to see America hit a second time, then the best next thing is to divide and conquer.  That might have worked in the 1950s, but it's not working any more.


I'm actually eager for them to continue to be their true selves and show the rest of America and the world the sludge they're made of.


That's my opinion, and it has nothing to do with you or your race.


many facts posted
I have posted many facts, you just dont see them as fitting into whatever beliefs you have.  A closed mind is a terrible thing.  Open your mind to possibilities.  Half this country and many parts of the world believe as I do.  You know, when I think of the real true republican party, I think of the party of Lincoln but right now it has morphed into the party of radical christian extremists..
Did you even read what you posted!
The last paragraph says it all.  Obviously some thought went into this and do you really think if he was NOT an atheist, he would not have sued by now.  There were 49,000 Google hits. I am not going to do your work for you.   At any rate, I don't care if you believe it or not. It makes no difference to me. 
It's sad you posted this in this manner.
It's obvious you posted it to make a political point.  It doesn't change my opinion about Pat Tillman.  Why would he give up a million dollar career in sports to pursue a war he felt illegal?  I am not sure you can explain that.  At any rate, He is a hero to me no matter what.  His reasons are not sticking in the throats of any conservatives I know of.  We will have to take Mrs. Tillman's word for what she is saying. Pat is not here to reinforce it. 
I'm glad you posted this. Thanks! nm
x