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AND BECAUSE OUR MILITARY IS BROKEN.....

Posted By: sm on 2009-02-12
In Reply to: You don't have to support anything you don't believe in.... - sm

The biggest selling product in the US right now is GUNS. So you think the cowards in this country can't protect themselves? Think again. Your family members weren't drafted and because they made that choice doesn't make everyone else cowards. You insult this country with your pious crap.




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Broken record. Broken rec- hic! Broken
And so forth, ad infinitum.
I would like to see this broken down....
what was the cause of death, into specifics. Like what was the leading cause of infant death? I doubt that it is due to disparity in access to health care among racial and income groups. What "doctors and analysts?" This is a very broad article and I am thinking the specifics would paint a different picture, which is why they are not included.
Yup, it's that same old broken record.
X
Get used to broken promises

And squeezing money out of "the middle class".


Your thinker is broken.
Or at least, badly warped. Have you ever actuallyr read any of Obama's policies or plans, or to you just get your information out of the hate blogs and off of Fox Noise? Obama has an energy plan that addresses, among other things, price of gas (not so much of an issue at the moment). Obama believes that the economy cannot recover without restructuring mortgages to mitigate 1 and every 10 American going into foreclosure (according to the latest stats on that).

If you had been equipped knowledge of any of this, you would have understood what the girl was talking about. Instead, you have just assumed she is looking for an hand-out/freebie. Your thinking is so jumbled, it is difficult to address it. The people who in times of uncertainty cling to their religion and guns, i.e., those things that they are familiar with and hold dear, are rural folks, HARDLY wealthy, by any estimation.

Your thinking is so poisoned with hatred, there really is no point in even trying to reason with you. Enjoy your ignorance.
Your thinker is broken.
Or at least, badly warped. Have you ever actuallyr read any of Obama's policies or plans, or to you just get your information out of the hate blogs and off of Fox Noise? Obama has an energy plan that addresses, among other things, price of gas (not so much of an issue at the moment). Obama believes that the economy cannot recover without restructuring mortgages to mitigate 1 and every 10 American going into foreclosure (according to the latest stats on that).

If you had been equipped knowledge of any of this, you would have understood what the girl was talking about. Instead, you have just assumed she is looking for an hand-out/freebie. Your thinking is so jumbled, it is difficult to address it. The people who in times of uncertainty cling to their religion and guns, i.e., those things that they are familiar with and hold dear, are rural folks, HARDLY wealthy, by any estimation.

Your thinking is so poisoned with hatred, there really is no point in even trying to reason with you. Enjoy your ignorance.
perhaps your thinker is broken
Religion has no geographic or socioeconomic boundaries. People do not "cling to their religion in times of uncertainty." People embrace their religion as a way to live. Gun ownership also crosses geographic and socioeconomic boundaries. Seen an NRA membership list??? You think those are all people who are "hardly wealthy by any estimation." Perhaps you should have equipped yourself with knowledge of this.
Is your remote broken? (sm)
You might want to try just unplugging the TV.  If it sickens you so much, why do you keep watching?
Once again....another broken promise by the big O.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/11/12/obama_softens_ban_on_hiring_lobbyists/


 


So much for the change Obama promised to bring.  Sounds to me like it is the same old political bullcrap of the rules not applying to certain people.  Why bother saying stuff when you know you can't or won't do it?


My house has been broken into, as well...
a far cry from a war on our soil.
Broken promises.
Obama Breaks Pledge to People Making Under $250K



Today, Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) condemns the recent passage of the Waxman-Markey energy/climate bill which passed out of the House Energy and Commerce Committee last night, 33-25, with four Democrats opposing,. ATR is calling on President Obama to keep his pledge.

All of this comes without a peep from President Obama, who promised not to raise taxes on those making less than $250,000 per year. Even House Agriculture Committee Chairman Collin Peterson (D-Minn.) says that he has “40-45 votes” to take down the over $600 billion climate tax bill that will cost jobs and increase energy prices.

President Obama said on September 12, 2008 in Dover, New Hampshire:

“I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.”

He repeated that pledgeon October 22nd in Richmond, VA:

The concerns are still the same; this bill increases the price of energy and taxes all American families, not just those making over $250,000 as President Obama promised:

-Direct energy costs will go up $1,500 per year for the typical family of four.

-Even with a 26% reduction is use, electric bills will be $754 higher in 2035 than in the absence of Waxman-Markey, and $12,200 higher in total from 2012 to 2035.

-Even with a 15% decrease in gas consumption – prices will still go up! A family of four will still pay $596 more in 2035 and $7,500 more in total from 2012 to 2035.

-From 2012-2035, a family of four will see its direct energy costs rise by $22,800.

-On average, employment will be lower by 1,105,000 jobs per year. In some years, cap and trade will reduce employment by nearly 2.5 million jobs.

-Waxman-Markey will drive up the national debt 26 percent by 2035. This represents an additional $29,150 per person, or $116,600 for a family of four.

Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform said, “It would be very helpful if President Obama would keep just one of his campaign promises and oppose this massive tax hike. If not – we have him on record and he is clearly breaking his ‘pledge’.”


Yawn same broken record
that keeps sticking on the same note.
They all sound like a broken record.sm
I think they all learned this from Hannity on Fox. They call everyone asking questions conspiratory theorists, or if they cannot shoot the message they focus the blame on Clinton. The one thing they never do is answer THE QUESTIONS. Here is a link to an article on Hannity's histrionics on 911.

http://www.newshounds.us/2005/10/23/hannitys_hackneyed_histrionics_over_911.php

If it is broken, why haven't they fixed it?

Updated in light of today's news that kangaroo centers, petting zoos and ice cream parlors are included in Homeland Security's list of vulnerable terrorist targets:


If Its Broken, Why Haven't They Fixed It?




Fort Knox is robbed in an unusual way. Burglars break in through an air conditioning vent and shine a laser at the video cameras to blind them. Billions are stolen.

The head of Fort Knox (let's call him the Chief) announces that no one could have foreseen this type of burglary.

The commission investigating the robbery -- stacked with the Chief's business partners and friends -- finds that the break-in was unexpected. The commission makes numerous suggestions on how to thwart similar burglaries by installing motion detectors in the air conditioning vents and main vault.

Independent researchers, however, discover that there have been many previous break-ins at repositories of valuable items where the burglars crawled in through the air conditioning vents and shined lasers at video cameras.

They also discover that the Fort's security system would normally have caught the burglars in the act and alerted the military in time to stop the burglarly, but the system was undergoing a series of safety tests that night -- including some that were similar to what actually occurred -- and so the military assumed that the alarms were part of the test.

There had been safety tests before, but never so many at the same time. The Chief personally scheduled multiple, overlapping tests for the night of the robbery, and then oversaw the operation of the tests and the Fort's reaction to those tests.

Years pass, but the Chief does not follow the commission's recommendations. He fails to install any motion detectors.

That's circumstantial evidence that the Chief was in on the heist. Why? Because if the robbery really had not been foreseeable and if he was innocent, he would have a very strong incentive to install motion detectors to prevent further robberies at the Fort. His personal reputation, the government's reputation, and its gold reserves would all depend on it. You can bet that he'd shore up the Fort's defenses.

Perks

Let's take it a step further: the Chief's personal bank account has suddenly gotten alot bigger after the heist. That helps to prove he was in on it, right? But it also shows that one of the reasons the Chief is leaving the Fort's defenses in a compromised state now is so that additional heists can occur, and he'll get more loot.

9/11

Similarly, the 9-11 Commission -- stacked with cronies of the Bush administration (like executive director Philip Zelikow, who is very close to administration hawk Condoleeza Rice, and steered the Commission away from the most important lines of inquiry) -- found that the attacks were unexpected, despite very strong evidence that they were not, and despite the fact that the government scheduled numerous, overlapping war games for 9/11 -- some involving a plane flying into a building and others involving hijackings.

And while the 9-11 Commission made numerous recommendations on how to prevent future terrorist attacks -- many of them simple and inexpensive to implement -- the Bush administration has failed to do so. Indeed, the Department of Homeland Security, instead of protecting vulnerable targets, has instead randomly made up lists which include kangaroo centers, petting zoos and
ice cream parlors
as high-priority terrorist threats.

Just like with the Chief, the current administration's failure to make the recommended and preventative changes -- many of them cheap fixes -- despite billions being spent on supposed homeland security, is strong evidence that the administration was in on it.

This is especially true because the administration has recieved so many perks from 9/11: justification for wars in Afghanistan (where a huge oil pipeline benefitting American companies was being held up by the Taliban) and Iraq (one of the world's largest oil producers), permanent military bases in the Middle East, and consolidation of power at home.

And by failing to implement the recommendations of the 9-11 Commission, the administration keeps open the possibility that another terrorist attack will occur which will whip the now-dissenting American public into line, justify the invasion of Iran, and allow for the suspension of our remaining constitutional rights.

The bottom line is that the administration's, like the Chief's, inaction to fix the alleged holes in security which allowed supposedly unforeseeable crimes to occur shows that they are guilty of the crimes, and hope to benefit from additional crimes in the future.

And if foreign terrorists really had carried out 9/11, why is the government using all of its resources spying on innocent people who obviously have never met a terrorist in their life?

Strange silence now broken.

First reaction is if these issues, which have been posted on O's website ever since he launched his campaign, are of such sudden concern to the cons and femocons, why did they not get addressed during the RNC?  Do you not see the high-jack strategy as the cons try to talk out of both sides of their mouths and reinvent themselves as the new age liberals?  How is this different than the now exposed folly of the compassionate conservative Bush/Cheney ploy?   


 


Small business.  Either you can't read, you think that we can't or your spin cycle is stuck in high gear.  Go here:  http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#small-business.  Plans to give tax relief for small businesses and startups, eliminate capital gains taxes on them and provide a $500 new making work pay tax credit (one of many) for workers.  For all those IC MTs out there, this is aimed at reducing the burden of double taxation in the current structure where small businesses pay both employer AND employee side of payroll tax.  Obama will INVEST $250 million per year in support of entrepreneurship, by creating national network of public-private business incubators to facilitate start-up creation.  Your $250,000/yr figure applied to tax cuts on INDIVIDUALS who earn in excess of that amount.  Therefore, your offshore, job loss, and massive flight to lower income argument does not hold water on this point.  Please cite the right-wing rag you have taken this $6 billion dollar additional tax on small business claim.  I'm not finding that in O's plan.  The tax breaks to the "lower brackets" (losing their homes, can't decide whether to get medicine or food this month, and if they are lucky, can gas their tank once a month) is addressed below.    


 


On the plight of the struggling rich.  Define rich, please.  From the bottom, INDIVIDUAL incomes in excess of $250,000/yr might look about right.  From the top, $5 million a year maybe (one of McC's not-so-funny jokes, some would wonder).  The 90% of the federal tax bill claim must be a typo.    Go here for 2008 info: http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2008/04/the_rich_and_their_taxes.html. Our top 1% of filers pay 40% or tax burden.  An accurate argument would include these facts as well.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth.  In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth.  Let's say that one more time.  Top 1% gets 38%, bottom 40% get less than 1%.  Since they are not earning a living wage, probably that is why they cannot afford to pay tax.  Got the picture?


 


There is only one reason our long suffering corporations are taking their business overseas.  Greed.  They do not want to pay their share and they get tax incentives currently for outsourcing.  Do not take us down the path of needing to address sweat shop working conditions, 7-day work weeks, $2/day wages in developing countries where US labor laws do not apply.  Greed is not a universal American value.    



There you go again.  Please try to keep this discussion in the context of McCain plans and how they are different than Bush plans.  You are spinning way out in right field without a paddle on that ridiculous statement about keeping people in lower brackets.  What in the world make you think this kind of ignorance is going to help JM/SP win the election. 


Preying on discontent, fear and division was a blatent and nauseating subtext for the RNC this entire week.  I do agree with inspecting history, and the history that is under the microscope now is Bush/Cheney and JM voting history.  Do you really want to bring up govt "borrowing."  Again, Bush is the record setter in this regard and while we are talkin' W, don't forget the Bush slash and burn policies toward our seniors.  Here's a link for you to a rather exhaustive analysis on 12 reason privatizing social security is a bad idea.  http://www.socsec.org/publications.asp?pubid=503.  You can get back to me on that one with your rebuttal.  My question would be putting WHICH people before WHICH party? 


Survey Americans on which party they associate election fraud with in the past, say, 30 years or so and tell me what you come up with.  So you forgot to mention what JM's plan is on this one.   Again, just saying no to personal attacks and steering you back on course.  JM's plan for lobbying and earmarks is what exactly.  I see O has one. 


 


JM hate war?  LMAO.  So what was all that military service orgie this week all about?   The entire McCain family for generations have shown to us just how much they hate war.  Where is his war prevention strategy?  Did I miss the part where he sang Give Peace a Chance?  Sam, really, do you care nothing about your own credibility or that of your candidates?  Am laughing too hard to comment further on this. 


 


Here's a link for you to serve as a primer on the Patriot Act controversy.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act#Controversy.  Will not address the attempts you are making to minimize the unconstitutional aspect of this legislation.  I would like an explanation as to how RNC protestors engaging in destruction of private property, vandalism, resisting arrest, disturbing the peace and such have suddenly been charged with terrorism?  The we have not been attacked yet defense does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about standing legislation that violates the constitution 9 ways to Sunday.  Far mongering does not a justification make.  O's plan demonstrates ways to tackle terrorism that do not involve trashing the constitution. 



There are many issues swirling around the separation of church and state.  Christian theocracy will be kept in the marginal fringes where they belong.  Religious principles will not be incorporated into laws that seek to remove a woman's right to control her own body.  Freedom from religion is also at stake here as are hate crime definitions that provide protection for Moslems in the US.  That is the freedom the cons overlook every time. 

You may not direct me anywhere in history on this subject that would attempt to blur the division between military and diplomatic initiatives.  Hello.  These are mutually exclusive concepts and one is designed to prevent the other.  Got it?  Where is JMs diplomacy?  In the past 16 years, which party has demonstrated the ability to balance the budget and create surplus.  Hey sambo, who turned a $559 billion surplus into a $400 billion deficit in just 8 years?  Looks like there already has been a trillion-dollar screw-up that the next administration will be having to clean up.  Wonder which party has the most credibility on this one?  

Your prescription for poverty sounds like it was lifted straight out of O's plan.  Read it before you try to claim it for the party who would ridicule it.  My post ends here because the remainder of yours is recycled communist/socialist innuendo that has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand.  And the top of the evening to you too, dear. 

Isn't this the first time either of them has broken the 50-mark?
nm
This is like listening to a broken record! (nm)
It just keeps skipping back and repeating the same thing over and over and over. Do have these comments set up in a word Expander to save time and keystrokes?
BC fanatics, the broken record.
x
No dog? ANOTHER campaign promise broken?
I guess we shouldn't be too surprised that the "tax cuts for 95% of Americans" will "not likely survive a budget battle with Democrats on Capitol Hill".

That's good, Obama. Some leadership! And blame it on the legislature. That's your MO, isn't it,Obama? Blame everything on everyone else.

You love to have your cake and eat it too, don't you, you pathetic L O S E R.
Yet another campaign promise broken..... sm



This originally included pictures, but apparently they would not post here.

 

A Boeing 757 and a fleet of armored cars for Michelle’s sight seeing tour!



Michelle One




On Sunday, President Obama flew back to the United States on Air Force One. His wife, two daughters and her mother did a bit of shopping in Paris before taking their own Boeing 757 (C-32) over to London to do some sight seeing.



We all remember Obama’s admonishment to corporate CEO’s in February:



“You can’t get corporate jets, you can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on the taxpayers dime.”



Apparently that doesn’t apply to his wife.



The London Times opened it’s description of Michelle’s visit this way:




Motorcycle outriders, armoured Chevrolets and bullet-headed men in raincoats criss-crossed London yesterday as Michelle Obama and her daughters spent a second day on an unofficial visit to the capital.



The Times went on to describe that when Michelle and the girls arrived at Westminster Abbey, the building was closed to tourists with people already in told to “wait against the wall.” An American visiting the Abbey said “Right then I knew it was probably someone from our ‘royal family’.”

 




Michelle’s motorcade shut down the London street above as the First Lady of the World and her children go for Fish and Chips at a pub in Mayfair . The entourage inside the restaurant was 15 people while dozens more wait outside. Include the dozens of Air Force personnel to fly and service the plane, embassy personnel and other staff and we are talking about a serious expenditure of tax payer dollars.



Meanwhile, millions of Americans have lost their jobs and won’t be able to take their family on a summer holiday. Despite their circumstances they’ll still be expected to fork over the tax dollars to pay for Michelle’s trip!




 

I solved the problem with the broken link
When I first clicked the link I noticed the OOPS! page not found, so I looked at the address bar of the URL and the link had a " at the end of it. So I erased the " after the htm and it worked just find.

Here is the link

http://www.iwilltryit.com/fixed1.htm
More like Clinton's broken promise to cut our taxes

That little campaign platform that he would cut our taxes (middle income) when elected.  Within days after being elected he raised our taxes to the highest ever in record history.


Also, according the to U.S. Treasury website that tracks the national debt, there was never a surplus because the debt rose every year.  I know a lot of people don't like to hear that, but that is just the facts in black and white


During Clinton the National Debt was:






















































Fiscal
Year
Year
Ending
National Debt Deficit
FY1993  09/30/1993  $4.411488 trillion  
FY1994  09/30/1994  $4.692749 trillion  $281.26 billion
FY1995  09/29/1995  $4.973982 trillion  $281.23 billion
FY1996  09/30/1996  $5.224810 trillion  $250.83 billion
FY1997  09/30/1997  $5.413146 trillion  $188.34 billion
FY1998  09/30/1998  $5.526193 trillion  $113.05 billion
FY1999  09/30/1999  $5.656270 trillion  $130.08 billion
FY2000  09/29/2000  $5.674178 trillion  $17.91 billion
FY2001  09/28/2001  $5.807463 trillion  $133.29 billion


As you can clearly see, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a budget surplus that he subsequently turned into a deficit.  Its true the budget was "almost" balanced in 2000, but it never reached zero, let alone a positive number.  Also, the growing deficit started in the Clinton budget, not the first year of the Bush admin.


To understand what happened requires understanding two concepts of what makes up the national debt.  Therefore I will attach a link that explains this.


I do know a lot of people really liked Bill Clinton as a President.  No doubt about that.  He had charisma and was very mesmerizing to listen to him speak, but you just can't toss out facts.


http://www.letxa.com/articles/16


P.S., this article states you can access the US Treasury website to see for yourself.


You're a broken record. How about providing some

Roberts certainly has more credentials and work experience than you do.


Do you just close your eyes and refuse to believe the truth because you **need** the use of Israel in order for all that **Rapture** stuff to come to fruition?


To only call it **propaganda** over and over again just proves you don't know what you're talking about.  If you do, provide proof to the contrary.


No idea....looked like maybe a broken blood vessel?
It DID look bad.
Broken Record...just keeps skipping back and repeating!
Can you guys please come up with some new material already. Hearing the same mantra over and over and over again is getting annoying!
We ARE the military.
You forget that when it comes time to put themselves on the line, you have just as many Democrats stepping forward as you do Republicans - and many more Dems go on for careers in public service. You think you own the Army? The Marines? The Navy? Well you're wrong. The military is a BIPARTISAN operation. Your problem in understanding this is that you refuse to listen to anything BUT soldiers confirming your tunnel vision. I watched the C-Span coverage of Saturday's march AND the C-Span coverage of Sunday's pro-war attempt. I listen to what all veterans have to say, not just a few that I can brand as like me. You won't have any kind of a realistic view of the whole picture until you consider BOTH sides of the issue.
I was in the military all through the 80s.
Ex-husband is a 100 percent disabled Vietnam vet with PTSD. Currently 1 son in the Army on his 2nd enlistment (in Korea even as we speak, as well as serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq). My other son and daughter-in-law also served in the Army.


The military is not the only way
su
The military could get him...yes
I can't say enough good about our young warriers but they can only follow orders.
How did they get in the military? sm
They ENLISTED. The draft was abolished in 1973 after the end of the Viet Nam War.
If our military can
be waterboarded during training, I think I could handle it for 50K.  That would be a nice payment on my house.  Where do I sign up?
I say let the military do what they have sm
to do to get the information they need. If the media would stay away from the military, battlefields, etc things would not drag on as long as they have. Our soldiers are limited as to what they can do or say to these bunch of terrorist because there is a camera or a microphone, it seems, recording their every word or every move they make.

The enemies of this country do not care what they do to us, but we are suppose to "molly-coddle" the terrorists and for goodness sake, don't "torture" them. Out guys go through more "torture" in boot camp than we are allowed to give to the worst terrorist when trying to get information from them.

Personally I say get the media, the papers, the TV, etc out of the battlefield. Let our soldiers do what they need to do and get back home! I wonder what the soldiers who found Sadam Hussein would have done if the media had not been breathing down their necks? If I had my guess, they probably would have blown him away and stuffed him back in the hole saving a whole lot of hassle and money.
love the military
that is why I want them home.  Cant fight a war without military, so no military, no war.  No immoral, illegal war.  Bush will have to finally face up to facts that he lied about this war, this war is wrong.  Let him send his daughters or let him finish his military duty.  No we are not going to send our sons and daughters to your illegal war, Bush..
The military is not a kid club. sm

Drinking age and fighting is an old and worn out reasoning. Besides, they get all the alcohol they want.   What are we supposed to do with men and women who choose to join the military.  Put it in writing that they will never have to go to war?  And where was the left's outrage when Clinton sent men and women into his little skirmishes.  I never heard a word then.  Never saw one leftie holding a sign that said NO MORE MOGADISHUs.  In fact, the left hardly even mentions it.  Why is that exactly?


I never said all the military supports the war.
That is a flat out untruth. 
How can one's child being in the military sm

equate to a point for foreign affairs experience?  Please explain that to me.  I know a lot of people whose children are in the military, in the war zone and not one of them would say they have foreign affairs experience.  Also, didn't she herself say she doesn't know anything about Iraq. 


And so you think our military isn't fed a load of
they've been sent to do is 'morally right'? Dont' get me wrong, they are brave, upstanding young men and women who believe in the country. But once they sign on that dotted line, they've gotta go & do what they're told during their enlistment. Even if it's for dubious reasons. So what you wanna bet they get fed a WHOLE lotta propaganda.

Suicide rates amongst our military is at an all-time high, as well. Ever wonder why that might be?
The majority of the military

have always been conservative.  However, many military members and veterans are changing their minds after what has taken place in recent years.  Watch the results of the election and see which way the military goes and compare that to elections in the past. 


Cut military spending!
How about we spend less on war and more on the citizens of the United States? Those who have family members in the military whose livelihood depends on war may call this socialism, but I call it common sense!
yes, they enlisted in the military
but they didn't enlist in the war.
I stand behind our military too but
I sure as  heck am not going to stand behind a president who sends our young men  and women in harms way for his own personal gain and that of his oil cronies.  What happened to bin Laden?  Don't tell me that our military men and women couldn't take him out.  And how about McCain saying he knew how to get him.  How anyone who can support this administration and this war is beyond me. Isn't it "Mission Iraqi Freedom" now?  What about 9/11?  Who has paid for that?  And today Iraq has given us "permission" to stay for 3 more years?  Permission???  We have  no business meddling in their business to begin with.  Wasn't Bushes and Sadam friends before they became enemies???
I'm from a military family, too
My grandfather fought in WWI and WWII. He received 5 medals for the battles in WWI in France, plus the French Etagierre. My father and mom's brothers were army. My gf retired in the 1970s. My one uncle retired in 1990 from the Army. My son was in the Marines. They all enlisted.
You don't need military at our borders.....
that's against our constitution. That's what our National Guard is for, to protect OUR borders. Combat military is not supposed to be involved in this country. I do not want our troops on the borders of my country; I want our national guard sent down to do what they are supposed to do, protect our country against foreign invasion.

I am sick to death of paying for illegals and their anchor babies by the thousands and thousands....

Good question.....why is our country allowing this and then punishing our agents to shoot one of them. Maybe more shooting would stop a lot of their illegal trespassing into our country if they knew they would be shot.
And who never served in the military
and is on record as despising it?  Class?  Obama!
Military does NOTHING with blessings of
You are so very misinformed. You can not compare the CEO of a car company to the United States Military.
not true...the military does most everything without
the blessing of the president directly. However, in this case, you are right. He did give the direct go ahead, although I doubt he planned it. By the way--with your vast knowledge of the military, do you know what the CNO is, let alone who it is without looking it up? I do.
not true...the military does most everything without
the blessing of the president directly. However, in this case, you are right. He did give the direct go ahead, although I doubt he planned it. By the way--with your vast knowledge of the military, do you know what the CNO is, let alone who he is without looking it up? I do.
Yes, and could put the country and/or our military
nm
I have 4 sons in the military ..sm
and have changed my views on the war. It is not what you hear from the "left", it is not what you see in Hollywood movies, the whole story is not being told by vets who solicit funds for "peace" and "truth" organizations.

The majority of Iraqi do want us there and our help. They do not hold all troops responsible for the acts committed 6 years ago by a few. Several troops have been convicted and sentenced - something no other country would do to it's troops in the same circumstances.

These photos not released are no worse than what we've seen, but they're a talking point for the "left." I expect they will be eventually released and the "left" will be off on another tangent b/c the "torture" meme lost traction.

The "left" isn't interested in law of the land and justice yadayada - they just gnaw at bones of contention and get a warm fuzzy until their "leaders" throw them the next bone.
Comment on enlistees in the military

I notice that repeatedly there is a rhetoric among conservatives that if an 18-year-old (or 19 or 20) signed up, then that was their adult decision and there's no use complaining over it.  War is war and they have to go.


Okay, so why is it fine for an 18-year-old to be considered mature enough to make a major life decision like enlisting in the military but at same time is not allowed to drink alcohol for 3 more years in most states?  So.....he/she can kill folks but not take a drink of beer.  Seems like rather skewed logic.


Secondly, when those folks of ALL ages enlisted they put their faith in the powers that be in this country that their service would be used wisely and that they would NOT have their lives squandered for a highly questionable and suspect war.  To me that is the crux of the matter -- sure they signed up but many of them did not sign up to fight in a spurious and illegal war.  They put their faith in the US military and were let down, as far as I can tell.  Very sad.


Who's REALLY signing up for the military these days.

Military's Recruiting Troubles Extend to Affluent War Supporters


By Terry M. Neal
washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Monday, August 22, 2005; 8:00 AM


There was an eye-opening article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette a few days ago that explored the increasing difficulty the military is having recruiting young people to enlist. As has been well reported in many newspapers, including The Washington Post, the Army and Marines are having a particularly tough time meeting recruitment objectives, in part because of Americans' concern about the war in Iraq.


When you dig deeper into the reason for this phenomenon, it turns out that parents of potential soldiers and sailors are becoming one of the biggest obstacles facing military recruiters. Even top military officials acknowledge this and unveiled a new series of ads this spring targeted at influencers such as parents, teachers and coaches.


But the Post-Gazette raises another issue. There has been much talk about the relationship between race and ethnicity and military recruitment. But what about social and economic class? Are wealthier Americans, who are more likely to be Republicans and therefore more likely to support the war, stepping up to the plate and urging their children and others from their communities to enlist?


Unfortunately, there has been no definitive study on this subject. But it appears that the affluent are not encouraging their children and peers to join the war effort on the battlefield.


The writer of the Post-Gazette article, Jack Kelly, explored this question in his story that ran on Aug. 11. Kelly wrote of a Marine recruiter, Staff Sgt. Jason Rivera, who went to an affluent suburb outside of Pittsburgh to follow up with a young man who had expressed interest in enlisting. He pulled up to a house with American flags displayed in the yard. The mother came to the door in an American flag T-shirt and openly declared her support for the troops.


But she made it clear that her support only went so far.


Military service isn't for our son, she told Rivera. It isn't for our kind of people.


The Post-Gazette piece focused on parental disapproval of military recruitment efforts, and dealt only tangentially with the larger question of class. What we do know is that recruiting is down across the board and that both the Army and Marines have fallen significantly behind their recruiting goals.


This is what the Army's hired advertising company, Leo Burnett, had to say about the ads targeting influencers that it began running in April: Titled 'Dinner Conversation,' 'Two Things,' 'Good Training' and 'Listening' (Spanish-language ad), the commercials portray moments ranging from a son telling his mother he's found someone to pay for college, to a father praising his son who has just returned from Basic Training for the positive ways in which he's changed. They capture the questions, hopes and concerns parents have about a career serving the United States of America and include families from many different backgrounds.


I asked Army spokeswoman Maj. Elizabeth Robbins for further explanation on the intent of the ads.


Clearly it was to talk to influencers, she said. She said studies have shown that today's young people yearn to serve their country in one way or another. The problem is that today the people who influence their decisions are less likely than they were in past generations to recommend [military service].


Why?


In part because the economy is strong, said Robbins. In part because they are concerned about the war. And in part because fewer of them have a direct relationship with the military or have ever served.


So would it be logical to conclude that, if the strong economy is one of the reasons it is more difficult to recruit, the most affluent parents should be the most difficult to reach? After all, their children have more options, including college, than less affluent parents? And if that's true, isn't it somewhat ironic that the military is paying millions of dollars ultimately to influence the behavior of the parents who are among the most likely to be supportive of the war in Iraq?


I disagree with your premise, Robbins said, arguing that the military is represented strongly across the board by people of all income levels and faces challenges in recruiting at all income levels.


Referring to the Post-Gazette anecdote, she said, One woman saying stupid things does not a trend make.


Actually, I did have a premise, but it wasn't unshakable. But because neither the Army nor the Defense Department keeps detailed information about the household incomes of the people who join, it was not easy to prove or disprove.


So let's approach the issue this way: In the 2004 election, household income was a pretty decent indicator of how one might vote. Voters from households making more than $50,000 a year favored Bush 56 percent to 43 percent. Voters making $50,000 or less favored Kerry 55 to 44 percent. Median household income as of 2003 was $43,318, according to the U.S. Census.


The wealthier you become, apparently, the more likely you are to vote Republican. The GOP advantage grows more pronounced for people from households making more than $100,000. People from households with incomes exceeding that amount voted for Bush over Kerry by 58 percent to 41 percent. Those from households making less than $100,000 favored Kerry over Bush 51 to 49 percent. And nearly two-thirds of voters from households making more than $200,000 favored Bush over Kerry.


Those making more than $100,000 made up only 18 percent of the electorate, which explains why Bush won by a narrow 2.5 percentage points in the general election.


This raises all sorts of complicated socioeconomic questions, such as whether the rich expect others to fight their wars for them. Or, asked another way, are they more likely to support the war in Iraq because their families are less likely to carry part of the burden?


Certainly, there are no absolutes here. Many of the wealthy are Democrats, some of whom support the war. Some of whom oppose it. Many of the poor and working class are Republicans, and support the GOP on Iraq.


By looking at long-term trends, it seems logical that some of those most likely to support Bush and his Iraq policy are also those least likely to encourage their children to go into the military at wartime. And it raises questions, such as, if you are among those most likely to support the war, shouldn't you be among those most likely to encourage your child to serve in the military? Shouldn't your socioeconomic group be the most receptive to the recruiters' call? And would there be a recruitment problem at all if the affluent put their money where their mouth is?


Several social scientists have studied the question of economics and class in military enlistment. Many of these studies don't look at the officer ranks, which might tend to counter some of the class argument. But officers, of course, make up a relatively small portion of the military.


Among the more recent studies was one done last year by Robert Cushing, a retired professor of sociology at the University of Texas at Austin. He tracked those who died in Iraq by geography and found that whites from small, mostly poor, rural areas made up a disproportionately large percentage of the casualties in Iraq.


I talked to two other academicians who have studied the issue. Their conclusions, though reached prior to the war in Iraq, were helpful because of their understanding of the historical implications of the class question.


David R. Segal, director of the Center for Research on Military Organizations at the University of Maryland, said contrary to conventional wisdom both the poorest and the wealthiest people are underrepresented at the bottom of the military ranks, for completely different reasons. This trend held for both from the conscription years of Vietnam through at least the late 1990s.


Poorer people, he said, are likely to be kept out of the military by a range of factors, including higher likelihood of having a criminal record or academic deficiencies or health problems.


Back during Vietnam, the top [economic class] had access for means of staying out of the military, said Segal. The National Guard was known to be a well-to-do white man's club back then. People knew if you if joined the guard you weren't going to go to Vietnam. That included people like Dan Quayle and our current commander in chief. If you were rich, you might have found it easier to get a doctor to certify you as having a condition that precluded you from service. You could get a medical deferment with braces on your teeth, so you would go get braces -- something that was very expensive back then. The wealthy had more access to educational and occupational deferments.


Today's affluent merely see themselves as having more options and are not as enticed by financial incentives, such as money for college, Segal said.


The Army was able to provide socioeconomic data only for the 2002 fiscal year. Its numbers confirm Segal's findings that service members in the highest and lowest income brackets are underrepresented, but because those numbers chronicle enlistments in the year immediately following the 2001 terrorist attacks, it's difficult to ascertain whether this was a normal recruiting year.


Segal and Jerald G. Bachman, a research professor at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, have studied the correlation between a parental education levels and likelihood for their offspring to enlist.


Examining data from early to mid-1990s, they created five categories, with one being the lowest level. Perhaps not surprisingly, they found the children of the most-educated parents -- those with post-graduate degrees -- were the least likely to join the military. The children of parents with high school diplomas were three times more likely to enlist.


One of the interesting phenomenon of today's politics is that, in general, Republicans tend to be more educated on average than Democrats, with a larger percentage either holding a bachelor's degree or having attended some college. But Democrats represent a larger portion of the super-educated -- that is, those holding graduate degrees. So Democrats are made up of the least and the most educated, with Republicans congregated largely near, but not at, the top.


So how did those near the top of the educational tree do in Segal's and Bachman's study? They were half as likely as those in group two to enlist. And because there are far more people who have been to college or have bachelor's degrees than there are people who have post-graduate degrees, the former group has far more political influence, just in sheer numbers.


While there have been changes in racial and ethnic enlistment trends, with the number of black recruits dropping precipitously since the Iraq war, Segal and Bachman said they've seen nothing to indicate significant changes in the class -- of which education levels is a prime indicator -- trends in the military.


Journalists can get themselves in trouble by drawing simplistic conclusions based on less-than-exhaustive research, and we won't do so here. But we can at least raise the question of whether the rich are more likely to support the war because their loved ones are less likely to die in it.


Comments can be sent to Terry Neal at commentsforneal@washingtonpost.com.


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