Auto Bailout is on C-Span. If you

want to watch it tonight, it will be on at 8 p.m. In the meantime, the plans of GM and Ford are online.

I feel sorry for the Chryler guy. He seems to be the most honest and wants the least amount of money. Sen. Corker - TN told him right out he doubts Chrysler is going to make it even with the money and they should just be bought out by someone and leave the company go.

He was also tough on the UAW Gettlefinger (or whatever his name is). I don't blame him there. The guy was squirming but he kept talking about all the concessions hurting the workers; i.e., not willing to make concessions.

Hope the link works.

• Auto Bailout is on C-Span. If you - Backwards typist
  • Well, link didn't work. Try this. - Backwards typist
    • Wow! There are people protesting outside the room. - Backwards typist

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Let the oil companies bail them out since they directly benefited from some of the bad management decisions.

Don't bail out the companies.  Give the money to the workers for re-education, etc., while the auto companies restructure.

My first suggestion was a little cynical, but I'm not sure why the second hasn't occurred to anyone.  ...

I happen to think that the auto industry does need a bailout.  No, I don't agree with keeping the current management, and I do believe in making stipulations for how that money is spent.  I know most of you will disagree with that, but here's what I'm seeing in TN.

Congressman Zach Wamp (R) from TN was on the tube last night talkiing about how he does not want to do the bailout.  If that's his opinion that fine ----- However, lets look at his reason.  TN has been bidding for a new Volkswagon plant which has recently come to fruition---right here in my home town by the way.  He has been pushing for this for years.  This is obviously a good thing for people in TN because of the jobs it would create.  What I find ironic though is that he would let American companies go down the tubes and yet support a foreign auto maker.   My honest opinion about guys like this, is that they want the job creation, regardless of where the real money is going (overseas) and they would like to do this in such a manner so as to cut out unions. 

ARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

They keep flip-flopping. The second link is Paulson's idea. That was probably posted before but am posting again just in case.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27721013

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27712153

to the tune of 17.4 billion.

Mr. Bush, in a televised speech before the opening of the markets, said that under other circumstances he would have let the companies fail, as punishment for their own bad business decisions. But given the economic downturn, he said the government had no choice but to step in.

“These are not ordinary circumstances, in the midst of a financial crisis and a recession allowing the US auto industry to collapse is not a responsible action,” Mr. Bush said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html

amendment would cost...$420B. It replaces the 600-some pages of the old bill but still includes tax cuts, entitlements, housing assistance, decreasing the tax rate from 35% to 25% so businesses can survive on their own, tax custs for us, and job creation. I still have not found it in writing. Maybe tomorrow.

Amendment 364 is McCain's amendment. They will be voting on it in a couple minutes....unless they get more objections and/or debates that, hopefully, they are all done.

Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R) Georgia. "Here we are once again raising the debt ceiling raise by almost a trillion dollars (the package now up for a vote). When is the spending going to stop?"

I don't think so. It's not a news channel, it's the house and senate bull sessions themselves. Maybe you don't like it because it's real and factual. Is that it?

the dems aren't much better. Take Dodd, Pelosi, Frank, Reid, and my favorite (not!)-Schumer. They don't give a dang about the people, either. Otherwise, they would have listened when the people spoke during the bailouts and stimulus packages.

They would have tried to work with the pubs to pass legislation and be bipartisan. But no, they wanted it their way and their way only.

I watched Schumer make state that the people don't care about the pork in all the packages they passed.  Where has he been?

I've watched Dodd lie. I've watched Pelosi think she's the president and to heck with everyone. She wants this and she will get it no matter what she has to do. I've watched Frank sputter and try to fight his way out of lies he was caught in.

I could go on and on, but I'm hopeful that people wise up and when their term for re-election comes up, I hope the people in their state take them down. They have caused most of the problems for this country.

I, for one, will no longer vote of Spector and I told him so. To change in the middle of his term does not sit well with me. He could have waited until it was time to campaign.  I feel like he betrayed his constiuents who voted for him. The worse part of the whole deal is that he figured he could not get re-elected without changing parties. Well, he may have just sealed his own fate come re-election.

Is there a reason why you repeat yourself over and over and over and over and over and over again?  Rehashing the same ridiculous complaints over and over and over and over and over and over again? 

Why don't you post the butt in a chair thing a few more times?  You guys have called us more or less drugged out hippies with references to what we must be smoking, what we must have been doing in the 60s and our hookahs.  You ain't exactly perfect.  Now if I post this paragraph about ten more times you might get the idea, right?

(I hope the spacing comes out okay, apologies if not).  From C-span here are a couple comments.  One by a republican and one by a democrat.  It’s good to know that there are people (democrats & republicans alike) who realize this is a bad deal and are looking out for our best interest and not their own.

Rep. Michael Burgess – R. Texas 26^th district

Speaker, I come to the floor today to talk about this 700 billion dollar bill that is in front of us.  I use the term bill advisedly because we have seen no bill.  We are here debating talking points on perhaps one of the largest fundamental change in our nation’s financial system in its history.  And house republicans have been cut out of the process.  Not only have we been cut out of the process, we have also been derided by the leadership of the democratic party and called unpatriotic for not participating.  Mr.  Speaker I have been thrown out of more meetings in this capital in the past 24 hours than I ever thought possible as a duly elected representative of 820,000 citizens of North Texas.  Mr. Speaker, politics is a full contact sport and I understand that, but it is a full contact sport in the light of day in the public arena.  Since we didn’t have hearings, since we didn’t have markups, lets at least put this legislation up on the internet for 24 hours.  That’s what Thomas was made for.  Lets do that and let the American people see what we have done in the dark of night.  After all, I have not gotten any more mail, any more emails on any other subject other than this one that is before us today.  Mr. Speaker I understand we are under martial law as declared by the speaker last night.  I think its ironic house republicans have not been needed for a single thing in this house to assure passage for the last 22 months.  And today we are going to be asked to vote for a bill for political cover because democrats are too weak to stand up to their speaker.  I yield back.

Rep. Marcy Kaptur – D. Ohio 9^th District

Mr. Speaker, my message to the American people, don’t let congress seal this wall street deal.  High financial crimes have been committed.  Now congress is being asked to bail out the culprits and to do so at the expense of those who elected us to guard their interest the people of our country.  The normal legislative process that should accompany review of a monumental proposal to bail out wall street has been shelved, yes shelved.  Only a few insiders are doing the dealing.  Sounds like insider trading to me.  These criminals have so much political power they can shut down the normal legislative process of the highest law making body in this land.  All the committees that should be scanning every word of what is being negotiated are benched, and that means the American people are benched too.  We are constitutionally sworn to protect and defend this republic against ALL enemies foreign and domestic, and my friends there are enemies.  We are told we will have a trillion dollar bill to review soon and have less than 24 hours with no regular hearings to try to vote on this tar baby.  The people pushing this deal are the very same ones who are responsible for the implosion on wall street.  They were fraudulent then and they are fraudelent now.  We should say no to this deal.  I ask my colleagues to join us at 2:00 at HC8 of the capital to meet with some real experts who have done financial resolutions without putting financial burdeon on the taxpayer.  Please join us HC8 at 2 p.m.

94 democrats voted against this bill today.  That is more than half the democrats, yet they get in front of the camera and give their little speeches about how all democrats are for this and its all the republicans fault this didn’t pass.  Hello folks, do the math. 

Pelosi has shown how truly inexperienced, divisive and uncaring she.  She gets up there and her mouth just flaps with nothing of substance being said.  She is incompetent and should be fired.  All that came out of her flapping gums today was more bashing of the republicans and accusing them of what democrats have been doing for over 2 years now.  Why in the world would you give a speech putting all the blame on people and bash the other political side before a vote is even held.  Chalk it up to one more of the numerous reasons she is incompetent and needs to step down.  And if she doesn’t step down she should be physically removed.  Even the Deputy Minority Whip held up a copy of Pelosi’s floor speech at a press conference and said she had “failed to listen and lead” on the issue.

Then I heard Barney Frank talk.  He should be renamed Barney Baloney.  He stands and mocks the people who voted against the bill making fun of them.  As someone said he may be a funny and clever guy, but there is nothing funny about this situation.

Did anyone even notice today that every time Pelosi and Franks spoke the market dived.  When they stopped talking the market started going up.  They’d get in front of the camera again and the market started tanking again big time.  This happened about 3 or 4 times (I was watching it on a split screen).  At that point you would have thought the President would have called over and told them to shut up because they were tanking the market.

Kucinich (democrat) said the ones who caused this are the one who are giving us a line (Pelosi, Franks, Kerry, Dodd).   

Truth is this $700B is not enough.  This is a small part of what is needed.  Many people are saying it's more like close to a trillion.  After this they’ll say well we need this much more, then that much more, and before we know it we’re going to be paying more than just $10,500.

There are economists and educated people who are asking for a decent bill.  But do they consult them.  They are the ones with the knowledge and ideas to get us out of the mess.  No who do they get – Pelosi, Franks, Dodd, etc – the people who did this in the first place).

All I can see is both candidates are more interested in getting themselves elected than what is happening with the economy so don’t even try to say one is worse than the other.  I cannot say what Obama is saying because I’m not hearing anything from him except that he keeps saying it needs to be fixed, but I’m not hearing his specific viewpoints on the bill itself (and I'm not hearing McCain's specifics either).  Specifics would be good if I'm suppose to vote for one or the other in November.

I am sure he is going to get the job. Some reps are not happy with his tax debaucle, but we cannot afford to drag this out for weeks to try and find someone who would be a better fit.

I'm not happy with this choice at all. Sure wish I would've known about his failure to pay taxes before he was nominated by O, then we could all use the excuse that we forgot to pay our taxes, too.  I wonder how many people ARE going to use this excuse at tax time.

According to Schumer and Klobuchar, they are sending a letter to AIG Liddy (sp) to tell them to renegotiate the bonuses or give the bonus money back, or else they will draft a LAW and take immediate steps to impose a tax as high as 91% on these bonuses.

I don't know how they can do that, although I would like to see it happen. But if they can break the contracts for AIG, then they can break any contract at will. That's a bit scary.

Read the following report.  8-10% of total cost doesn't seem like a huge percentage for labor costs.  Maybe they can't afford  the big salaries and bonuses for the top dogs?  About time the wealth started being redistributed.  Funny I haven't heard any outrage over the outrageous salaries the top dogs in these automobile business are paid.  Just whining about how much the UAW workers are paid.  It's about time the working class started standing up for the working class!!!!!

Let 'em all go bankrupt. I have no doubt the idjits in Washington are way more concerned about job losses in "developing countries" than those of American citizens.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout_gettelfinger

I feel the same way I felt about the bank bail-outs.  I would say no bail-outs for ANY business.  I think it borders on extortion.  First the banks need a bail-out, then it's the auto companies, then AmX reorganizes so they become a holding company so THEY an qualify for some of that free money.  Latest I read the newspapers are to be next in line.  Where does it all end?

My reason for my no bail-out opinion is, what did it accomplish for the banking industry?  Nothing if we are to believe there is a credit crisis.  I noticed this evening one of the local banks was advertising that they still have money available for loans.  Why is it that it's the big guys that get into trouble?  Let 'em suffer.  Bail-outs are going to do nothing for working middle class people.

As I said in an earlier post where do you think new automobiles will fit in consumers priority list when they are trying just to put food on the table and a roof over their heads?  Pretty far down I'd say.  There are new layoffs announced every day, many have nothing whatsoever to do with the automotive industry.

So that is why I say NO BAIL-OUTS. 

One more thing...UAW role in the automobile woes.  The public has been dreadfully misled.  Most seem to think the workers make some $70 an hour when in truth they make in the neighborhood of $27.00 an hour.  Not a word have I heard objecting to the executives who are paid some $6000 PLUS per hour and all kinds of perks like private jets, etc.  Wouldn't one think this would have a whole lot to do with their finances?  The one thing I think the union should concede is the job bank where they are paid 95%, I think it is, of their wages when they are laid off.  The rest of the workforce (and my husband spent his life working as a Teamster) should have to suffer through unemployment just like the majority of other employees.  I do think that employer provided benefits such as the unions have should be available to all workers.  It most surely comes in handy at retirement.  I  think everyone should have an opportunity to retire in their older years and Social Security sure doesn't covere living expenses.  I wonder if there are any MTs who have retirement benefits?  Probably not.  Most seem now-a-days hard pressed to even make a living.

Good article and the guy they interviewed, Peter DeLorenzo (?) - a guy all up on the auto biz - said neither McCain nor Obama had a clue when it came to the auto industry.  The article gave a little bit of the voting records on both related to the auto industry.

Candidates Voting Record On Auto Industry-Related Issues:
Clean Energy Achievement Criteria (2007): McCain - no vote; Obama - Yes
Preventing Petroleum Export Organizations (NOPEC Act of 2007): McCain - no vote; Obama - Yes
Reduction in Dependence on Foreign Oil (2005): McCain - No, Obama - Yes
Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (No) Drilling Amendment (2005): McCain - Yes, Obama - Yes

Does Palin kno McCain voted no on reducing dependence on foreign oil?

We get 28-30 MPH with it. Why they didn't brag this up, I have no idea. It has power, too. We could keep up with the V8's with no problem. Had a very large luxury Delta 98 LS and it was the best car we ever had...but the frame rotted away, so we kept the motor and put it into a Buick LeSabre.

Part of the problem is the unions. I've always been a union supporter, but they have really killed the industry in this country in the past 20 years. That's why there are no steel industries here anymore. That's why auto workers make a fantastic wage. Once they make good to fantastic wages, they won't back down.

Face it. People are greedy and this is a gigantic wake up call, but if they don't want to, or aren't willing to, take pay cuts, or pay more for their health insurance, then we're doomed to fall into a greater depression than seen in the 30s. A me-first-and-only-me economy doesn't work.

Example:  Teachers in my area are screaming and going on strike because they don't want to pay more for health insurance. They pay $40 biweekly.  I pay $200 a pay and before that, I paid $630 a month.  I'm happy paying $200 a month. Are they? Nope. It's me-me-me. When are people going to wake up?

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of our money, frist by inflation and then by deflation; the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks) will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered"

-President Thomas Jefferson

the US a socialist country - compliments of your beloved GWB and McPalin. congratulations you got your wish.

There Is No Crisis--Summary by: Chris BowersTue Sep 23, 2008 at 16:22

Things are getting a little suspicious about this crisis.

1) Why did the Bush administration suddenly declare a crisis during the final two weeks when Congress would be in session during his presidency? Is it maybe because, after the election, Congress would know it wasn't dealing with Bush anymore?

2) If this is such a sudden crisis, why is it that the Bush administration was drawing up the plan for this bill for months beforehand?

3) Why is it that Congress is supposed to bail out many banks and firms that are actually quite successful and profitable right now, and not just those that are failing?

4) Why is Paulson blatantly lying to Congress about oversight?

5) Where did the $700 billion figure come from?

6) Why is Paulson urging that debate on the matter be held after the legislation is passed?The burden of proof should always be placed on those who are demanding a huge government bailout, not upon those who are skeptical that one is needed. And yet the questions keep mounting, with no answers in sight.

I am not saying that there is no need for government intervention. I am saying that the case for a $700 billion bailout is far from having been made. Until the case is made, there is no need to go forward. We will elect a new President in 42 days. We swear in a new Congress in 103 days. What is the rush? Why does this all of a sudden need to be done while the Bush administration is still in charge? The case hasn't been made, and answers are slow in coming, if they come at all. Chris Bowers :: There Is No Crisis--Summary

We have some savings, but we still live paycheck-to-paycheck, not wanting to touch the savings.  I really don't agree that we taxpayers should have to fund this.  I think that the higher ups that walked away with 100s of thousands or even millions should have to pay for this.  Charge them with fraud and make them give it back.  I certainly don't feel I've put anyone in this situation and therefore don't feel I should have to pay for it. 

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