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Why doesn't he just produce them?

Posted By: sbMT on 2008-11-02
In Reply to: Nope, not kidding - Kaydie

That's what I don't understand. I mean all he has to do is go "here, here is everything you asked for" and it would shut everyone up.

I sure would like to read his thesis paper.


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Produce not product...nm
x
He has been able to produce no immigration
nm
Can YOU produce your vault birth certificate?
McC camp people are, no wonder their campaign is doing down the drain...and no plumber on the face of the earth is going to be able to plunge it back to life.
So if this is true, then just produce your BC to the courts, hmmm...




Is Barack Obama a U.S. citizen?"

Of course he is, dummy..

"But how do you know?"

Well for starters, he posted his birth certificate on his website. Not to mention, the Director of Health for the State of Hawaii released a statement saying he was born in Hawaii . Also, factcheck.org (a non-partisan and highly credible political fact checking website) investigated it heavily and validated, beyond doubt, that the birth certificate he posted was real. Did I mention that if there were an actual conspiracy surrounding this...it would have to be 47 years in the making? That's right, read it and weep: his birth announcement was posted in a Hawaii newspaper way back in 1961! But if you're really not sure, just remember there have been court cases challenging his citizenship, and every one of them was laughed off the docket.

"That's all pretty compelling. But I got this email that said...."

The email you got is just a crazy, internet-born rumor. It's nothing but a desperate attempt to discredit him. Trust me.

"Yeah, I'm sure you're right...."


Sound familiar? I've personally had a similar conversation several times, but mine ends differently.


"Well for starters, he posted his birth certificate on his website."

Really? Well humor me, because I think this is important enough for us to get our facts straight. So let's explore that. Hawaii doesn't issue "birth certificates". The state offers "Certificates of Live Birth" and "Certifications of Live Birth." What Barack Obama has posted on his website is a "Certification of Live Birth." So let's talk about the difference between the two documents. As you probably know, the document we commonly refer to as a "birth certificate" (more formally called a Certificate of Live Birth) is packed with detail. Detail like the hospital you were born in, the doctor who delivered you along with his/her signature, etc. It looks like a tax form with all the boxes and everything. The Certification of Live Birth is really just a snapshot of that. So which one is more credible? Which one does the state of Hawaii give the "last word" to? Based on information that existed long before this issue came up, let's take a look at one example of what the state of Hawaii has to say on it:

"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL." ( http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl ).

So if the state of Hawaii itself doesn't accept "Certifications of Live Birth" as a last leg of verification, it's safe to say there's a pretty solid distinction we too can make when comparing a Certificate to a Certification. What Barack Obama posted, was a Certification. What people want to see, is the Certificate. When you say he "posted his birth certificate" on his website, the truth (painful as it may be to hear) is that he posted a much different document that if accurately described, would be a "birth certification" - which is far less credible and far easier to alter.

"That's pretty lean. It's not really a big deal to me because I know it's just a rumor. But still, if you're going to insist there's a question here, I have to tell you....the state of Hawaii released a statement saying he was born in Hawaii . They have the 'Certificate' you're talking about, and they proved it was authentic. Are you saying they're in on this crazy conspiracy?"

I'm not saying they're involved in a conspiracy, or even that one exists. But I'm not sure you can honestly say you actually read that statement. Here, take a look:

Director of Health for the State of Hawaii , Chiyome Fukino: "There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama's official birth certificate. State law (Hawai'i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record. Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai'i."

Now you tell me, where in that statement does it say anything about where he was born? Public officials are very careful when they release these statements. They carve their words out precisely and check and double check to make sure what they release is accurate and viable. I have to be honest, it wasn't until this statement came out that I became more concerned by the citizenship question. If you actually read it, it's plain to see that as it relates to his birth, the statement really only "proves" 3 things: 1) Barack Obama was born, 2) proof of that birth exists on paper, and 3) their office is in receipt of that paper. An official statement with a lot of affirmatives about requirements and procedures means nothing if they can't find the words, "originating from Hawaii " or "was born in Honolulu " or "as documented in the Certification he has already released". Now maybe it was an accident that Dr. Fukino was able to authenticate virtually every scrap of it's existence - except the part everyone is asking about. However, pressed on this, there has been ample opportunity for her to revise or expand her statement, and she still to this day has not done so.

"Wait a minute, Hank. Didn't factcheck.org already investigate this whole thing. You're just grasping at straws. What do you know, that they don't?!"

I guess the first thing I'd tell you is that, on this particular subject, factcheck has already missed a lot of "facts", and even created a few of their own. You know that statement we just read from Hawaii 's Director of Health? Well this is what factcheck had to say about it: "Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu " ( http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html ). Did you see that in the statement? I didn't. If this site's only claim is to report facts in a non-partisan manner, how much credibility can we really give them when they start making up their own, very partisan and very inaccurate facts? They also failed to make the distinction between the Certificate and the Certification. And to be fair, factcheck.org is a product of the Annenberg Foundation. You may remember, Barack Obama worked for Annenberg as a spoke in their umbrella. If you look at the actual facts, this is a slight conflict of interest on factcheck.org's part - which might help to explain their not having met their own obligation of getting the facts right. An accident on their part? Maybe. But they too have had plenty of time to correct it, but chose instead to close the book on this one...fabricated facts and all.

"Look....if there was any truth to this, it would have meant that Barack's parents and a Hawaiian newspaper were in on it too. And they were in on it 47 years ago! There's a birth announcement in a Hawaiian newspaper for crying out loud."

Okay now this is one of my favorites. So now rather than authenticating citizenship by way of formal, long-form, vault copies of actual Certificates of Live Birth - we are relying on birth announcements in newspapers? Let me ask you something: If you and your wife live in Ohio , but you gave birth while visiting Florida , is there a legal or logical premise that says you're bound to put that birth announcement in a Floridian newspaper? Or, would you likely send news of the birth back home, to your town-of-residence, where more friends and family would see the good news? If Barack Obama was born outside of the U.S. , there doesn't have to be a "conspiracy" for his family to have sent word of that birth back to their hometown newspaper.

"Hmm. Okay. Well newsflash Hank. This has already been challenged in court and the judges dismissed it as frivolous and ridiculous."

Actually, this has been heard in a handful of courts. The judges by-in-large dismissed the cases, you're right. But the majorative reason was not merit, but rather standing. "Standing", as an act of dismissal in the courts, is a technicality. The judges said that individual citizens did not have standing to ask that the Constitution be upheld. This raises a pretty clear question: If "We The People" don't have standing to ask that the contract we hold with our government be upheld (ie the Constitution), who does? There are several other cases still pending; at least 12 confirmed. One of those is actually active on the Supreme Court's docket, as we speak. Another has been brought in California by 2008 candidate for the Presidency, Alan Keyes...and several of California 's electors (members of the electoral college who will officially vote our President in on December 15, 2008).

I don't think too many grounded people could say, "I know the answer." For instance, I am not saying Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen. I'm not saying he was born in Kenya . I'm not saying he renounced his U.S. citizenship when he moved to Indonesia and attended school there (a right reserved only to Indonesian citizens - in a country that didn't recognize any dual citizenship.) I'm not saying that due to his father's citizenship at a time when Kenya was still part of the British empire , Barack, as a son, was automatically and exclusively afforded British citizenship. I'm not saying the video footage of his Kenyan grandmother claiming to have been in the delivery room, in Kenya , when he was born, is necessarily "evidence." I'm also not saying he was born in Hawaii . What I'm saying is, none of us have these answers. I'm saying, there is an outstanding question here - that only Barack Obama can answer. And rather than answer it, having promised a new sense of transparency throughout his campaign, his course of action has been to spend time, money and the resources of at least 3 separate law firms....fighting to keep any and all documentation off the discovery table and out of the courtroom. It is a well known legal fact that if you have documentation/evidence that will help you - you are quick to produce it. If that documentation will hurt you, however, you fight to keep it out of court. Let's be fair. He was quick and happy to give documentation he claimed validated and authenticated his citizenship to a website - but is fighting to keep that same documentation out of the courts. If that document really does authenticate and validate everything, why not just hand it over? Why fight?

"Alright Hank. Well MY question is, if there was any validity to this, why isn't the media covering it?"

I have no idea.


As an Independent and initial Barack Obama supporter, I can safely say that contrary to what many think, asking these questions is not an attempt by Republicans to win a technicality-laden seat in the White House. Republicans lost. They were due the loss. Most know that. The seat will ultimately go to a Democrat. But if there is truth to Barack Obama not being able to formally prove his a) natural born, and/or b) properly maintained citizenship statuses - we as Americans must not gloss past it. If there is truth to it, this will represent the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American people and our most coveted process of democracy. If there is truth to it, this will demonstrate a wanton and relentless pursuit for power which left President-Elect Obama trapsing all over our Constitution - in pursuit of a position that ironically and foremost swears him to uphold and protect that same document.

There is much unanswered here. I know it is very embarassing for the Democratic party to have allowed what might be such an incredibly elementary oversight to occur - but nothing good that Barack Obama might do in the next 4-8 years, will be able to repair the damage done by setting a precedent that affords anyone in our Country the room and right to trample the contract "We The People" hold with our government, let alone a person who is asking to be our next President.

"Everyone will riot if they kick him out." We can't be intimidated by that. The people of our country elected a black man for the Presidency. Nothing can change that. If it turns out his entire campaign and effort were based on fraud, that reality is still 100% independent of the color-blind lenses our nation took to the polls. So if we bow down to the potential for race riots - recognizing that we did in fact (perhaps ignorantly relating to his eligibility) initially vote for him, we are only fostering a new evolution of racism that is nurtured by intimidation and complicit with failing to incite accountability over a man, people and process - simply based on color.

Very few people know any of this is even occurring. Those who do are greatly divided. Some are sure Barack Obama has acted fraudulently, some are sure he hasn't. Neither group can be sure of anything though, until Barack Obama himself answers the question for us. We all show our "birth certificates" (Certificates of Live Birth) several times over the course of our lives. Why should someone running for the Presidency be an exeption to that expectation, or even a more fiercely vetted recipient of it? More questionably, how can we as a government, media and nation - allow someone running for the Presidency to be an exception to that expectation?

The behavior, mostly (to my personal dismay) for his part, has only fueled speculation. Why factcheck.org? Why not a governing body like the Federal Election Commission, Board of Elections or even the DNC? When a governing body did finally inject itself in to this matter, why were they only able to do so vaguely...leaving the real question entirely untouched and unanswered? Why spend more than $800K fighting this in court, at a time when our nation is in economic crisis and that money could be better spent in far more charitable ways; when it could ultimately and universally be resolved for the small $12.00 fee required by Hawaii for a copy of the actual Certificate of Live Birth? In the spirit of transparency, why refuse to release this basic document for inspection? In the spirit of unity, why leave so many Americans alienated and debating the matter - when all most of them want is affirmation so that people on both sides of the debate can move to more healthy and productive lines of communication?

It was opinionated that he had left this door open prior to the election, so that those who opposed him would be led down a blind and pointless alley. The general election is over though. And still, he offers nothing to end the speculation.

By the time I am done with the conversation I outlined above, those I am speaking with inevitably return to what I have typically found to be their first and last refutation....

"He must have been properly vetted. Right....?"

I don't know. And without support for that contention coming directly from the Federal Election Commission, the Board of Elections or (ideally) Barack Obama himself, neither does anyone else.

"This is ridiculous" doesn't count as a refutation. Simply, answer the question with the simple documentation that is being asked of you in double digit numbers of court rooms across the country, including the Supreme Court. It may go away. It may be dismissed again based on standing. But President-Elect Obama's refusal to quell what have become very real questions about this, will only serve to leave many good Americans who hope to vigorously support their President...with far too much doubt to be able to do so. Production of a Certificate of Live Birth is a very small price to pay for unity.



Obama could produce FEAR FACTOR!

It's funny how Obama can ramble on and on and on about all the Americans out of jobs; however, he refuses to enforce the E-Verify bill already in place to make sure NO illegals continue to take their jobs, which they are.   He couldn't give a rats butt about those jobs.  The proof is in his lack of doing anything about the illegal invasion in this country.  He's very good at using all his fear tactics with all his big adjectives and descriptives out the ying yang, but he hasn't done ONE SINGLE THING to stop American employers from giving illegals American citizens' jobs. 


He's just wanting that stimulus package passed so bad, he'll continue to get on TV and promote more fear....................


And for those posters who said he has taken ALL THE PORK OUT DAYS AGO, get in the real world, will ya?  He JUST said on his little announcement that there is PORK that needs to be taken out STILL.     All I hear now is blah, blah, blah, blah.................


He can sign 5 executive orders in his first 3 days of office but he can't enforce E-Verify!  That big fat smile doesn't make me melt and it doesn't fool me either.  He ain't got what it takes.


Now all you O lovers can flame away........... then tell me why he can't enforce E-Verify!  It's a law ya know!!! You'll probably have to look it up first. 


 


Ayers doesn't regret the bombings, doesn't feel like they did enough sm

In a story that appeared in the Times on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, Ayers told a reporter while promoting his memoir "Fugitive Days": "I don't regret setting bombs...I feel we didn't do enough."


Mr. Ayers, now a professor of education in Chicago, was a founder of the Weather Underground, which bombed government buildings in the early 1970s. He was indicted on conspiracy charges that were thrown out for prosecutorial misconduct.


He served with Mr. Obama on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a charitable organization, and, along with his wife, the former Weather Underground member Bernardine Dohrn, hosted Mr. Obama at his home in 1995 when he was running for state office.


Mr. Obama has called Mr. Ayers "somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old."...so because it was 40 years ago, and Ayers is still proud of what he did, how is it justifiable for a US presidential candidate to now be friends with this man?  Unless he has the same view of America.


Let me rephrase that. It doesn't *seem like* my vote doesn't count...sm
It does not count because its in the bag that our 3 electoral votes will go to the republican party.
It doesn't appear they are.

It doesn't take all that...sm
If you disagree just state your points. Leave the stupid and fool name calling off. It only degrades the entire conversation and will start a whole new mess. That you may or may not want to be in. I don't know you may want that but since you are on the liberal board don't bash the posts here.
No he doesn't. sm
Rush and David Liimbaugh, along with their mother, are staunch conservatives.  If you are a conservative, a true conservative, Rush espouses a true conservative viewpoint. He doesn't hate liberals.  He loathes me.  There is a difference.  Rush is a big target for liberal talking heads.  His brother is more low key but just as staunchly conservative.  Yes, he makes money with his talk show.  Can you tell me someone who is business to NOT make money.  I can't seem to think of anyone.  As much as I love Rush, he sometimes does get a little out there, but he has never changed his basic conservative principles from his early days in Missouri and I respect him.
He doesn't have to say it...they already are...
worshipping him.
It can mean to you whatever!!! It doesn't
mean you have to say it over and over! You're right, it IS a free country, and I will read AND complain about your posts as much as I like, just like YOU are complaining about everyone else!
Because she doesn't seem to believe it's a

Doesn't say anything about . . .
Republicans and democrats, says liberals and conservatives.
No it doesn't
nm
Sure gets old, doesn't it?

of course it doesn't
But, chosing not to vote for him just because he is black, does make you a racist. I believe that many folks will vote for McCain for that reason only. However, I also believe some folks will vote for Obama because they don't want a woman VP. Racism and sexism is still pretty widespread in this country.
Doesn't seem right does it?

After all, most employees can be fired at will so why not the politicians?  Aren't they suppose to work for the people.


VOTING A WRITE-IN VOTE FOR LOU DOBBS.


It doesn't get any better than that
You got bashed, adored and even recruited a couple of new citizens! Great post!
CNN doesn't know everything....and
wasn't it Biden who said Obama was not experienced enough to be president months ago before he was chosen as VP running mate for Obama.
No, he doesn't.
in a Christian nation, the idea of addressing poverty inspires racial hatred and outrage, but you would go to the mat to protect your guns. Pitiful.
Unfortunately he doesn't
but knowing my dad he probably gave them a good piece of his mind LOL


And it doesn't have anything to do...(sm)

with the fact that Israel is really Arab land?  How about the idea that Israel didn't even exist as a nation until established by a third party.  How about the fact that Israel has been cutting off supplies from Gaza?  (That would include food, medicine, etc)  I don't know about you, but I tend to get a little testy when my kids don't have food.  How about the fact that the US consistently manipulates people in that region (putting in leaders the US wants, only to take them out again when its convenient), and yet when it comes to Israel, the US has given them money and sofisticated weapons to fight against homemade rockets.  How about the idea that when Iran invaded Iraq the US was all over it, but when Israel does the same thing to Gaza we just give them a green light and ignore the civilian death toll.  How about the idea that oftentimes the US has backed both sides of a war, playing each for what it can get?  Oh, by the way, Israel is not the only democracy over there.  You don't think any of this has anything to do with it?


And if you really want to bring religion into it, how about that all important commandment about *thou shalt not kill?*


And it doesn't have anything to do...(sm)

with the fact that Israel is really Arab land?  How about the idea that Israel didn't even exist as a nation until established by a third party.  How about the fact that Israel has been cutting off supplies from Gaza?  (That would include food, medicine, etc)  I don't know about you, but I tend to get a little testy when my kids don't have food.  How about the fact that the US consistently manipulates people in that region (putting in leaders the US wants, only to take them out again when its convenient), and yet when it comes to Israel, the US has given them money and sofisticated weapons to fight against homemade rockets.  How about the idea that when Iran invaded Iraq the US was all over it, but when Israel does the same thing to Gaza we just give them a green light and ignore the civilian death toll.  How about the idea that oftentimes the US has backed both sides of a war, playing each for what it can get?  Oh, by the way, Israel is not the only democracy over there.  You don't think any of this has anything to do with it?


And if you really want to bring religion into it, how about that all important commandment about *thou shalt not kill?*


Have you noticed how palestinian land keeps getting smaller and smaller?  Is that because the land is shrinking or because Israel is greedy?


 


If he doesn't know what is going on in the WH...
how the hell is he experienced enough to run the CIA? Face it, your chosen one sure can't chose anyone for himself; the Clintons have him so wrapped around their fingers he has to pay back the favors...he is a shill for them.....he will be a one-term president...look at the dems at each other's throats already and he's not even sworn in yet! Ahh, it will be great to see the chosen one fail!
One doesn't have to know her
Personally to see the condescending demeanor she carries. She's a snoot, plain and simple! But did you know that she had never been to Obama's senate apartment in DC because it was too much like a college dorm for her? Now how's that for a snob?
OMG.....who doesn't know

that Bush started out with a surplus and created this huge deficit?  Please....raise your hands if you don't know that because for some reason people continue to think that we DON'T KNOW THIS INFORMATION AND CONTINUE TO POST IT.  Holy friggin cow.....WE KNOW ALREADY.


I can't  change what Bush did.  I wish I could.....but I can't.  All I can do is watch what our government and our CURRENT president is doing now.  Your arguments about Bush creating this deficit doesn't do squat for me when Obama wants to add to this deficit by continued government spending.  President Obama is more concerned about his agenda for creating bigger government than he is cuttin this deficit.  He can't do it.  Sending troops into Afghan......doubling the deficit in just one month's time since he took office.  Some of you people are more concerned about making us all know Bush ran up this deficit (WHICH WE KNOW, BTW) and refuse to see what Obama is doing........spending spending spending spending spending.  You can't buy your way out of debt.  That is like getting one loan to pay another one off or paying one credit card bill with another credit card......it is just plain STUPID STUPID STUPID. 


So please....stop with the.....well Bush created this deficit.....WE KNOW THAT ALREADY.  Now we have to focus on our president now and watch what he is doing.  I'm p!ssed at both pubs and dems.  I'm all for what Chuck Norris said on Glenn Beck last night.....he wants to line up all the unhonest politicians and choke them until they are unconscious.....that includes pubs and dems.  They are all liars.  they are all out for their own agenda.  They care more about their pockets being filled with money and their "pet projects" they keep stuffing into these spending bills.  INSANITY!!!!  To he!! with both parties.  I truly hope that come election time we have an independent that I can believe in because I certainly will not vote for either party.  Screw them both.  If we vote them all out, maybe they will realize how mad we are and that we aren't going to take it.


Instead......all we can talk about is how this is all Bush's fault.  LOL.  Seriously....we all know what Bush did.  Now let's focus on the current president and see what he plans on doing and whether it will help or not.  Right now.....spending money we don't have isn't the answer.  STOP GOVERNMENT SPENDING!!!!


That's because O doesn't know what he is doing!
nm
Now you know why CT doesn't want him
They all voted him in DC so they'd get rid of him in CT. Nobody likes him back there. He's one of the biggest liars and cheats of all time. How long has he been in politics. They need to start putting limitations on how many terms you can run.
But God doesn't say that
So your response is pure nonsense.

And if your going to get into religion please go to the other board.
LOL :-) - sorry that doesn't cut it either
Trying to turn around a situation and make it look as though the people who didn't vote for the anointed ones have drunk the kool-aid???? Sorry, doesn't cut it and your going to have to try to do better than that one. Kool-aid drinkers are the ones that voted for the anointed one totally and blindly. You bought into the lies and didn't even ask questions. People who didn't vote for the messiah are not the kool-aid drinkers, hence the term "kool-aid drinkers".

Unfortunately some of the damage that your lord has done is irreparable. I am asking how many years do you think it will take to fix the harm he has done. That's an appropriate question. Unfortunately it has only been 90 days and I am gathering about 2 years to undo and fix 90 days worth of damage. I hate to see how many more years will be added.
That's because he really doesn't know what's going on.
He's given a written script and if anything varies from what is written, he doesn't know how to answer.
He doesn't tell us to
love their sinful behavior so, YES, you DID miss my point.
Why doesn't this surprise me??

Don't tell her she doesn't have a right to speak

If Cindy Sheehan had the right to spew her feelings Army Mom has that right too.  Works both ways as bad as you HATE it...


Hey, doesn't surprise me
When Carter won one I knew the committee's cheese had completely slid of their cracker.
He doesn't have to veto any of them.

All he does is sign them all with a Presidential statement changing whatever he doesn't like about the law when he signs it, just like he did with the McCain torture bill.  He signed it but amended it to add that he still reserves the right to torture.


He does what he wants, couldn't care less about Congress or Americans.


At least one soldier doesn't











src=http://www.armytimes.com/images/aheader_03.jpg
June 06, 2006

Lieutenant defies Army over ‘illegal’ war

By William Cole
The Honolulu Advertiser


In one of the first known cases of its kind, an Army officer from Honolulu is expected to refuse to go to Iraq this month with his unit, citing what he calls the “illegal” and “immoral” basis of the war, his father confirmed.


The officer, 1st Lt. Ehren K. Watada, 28, son of former state campaign spending commission executive director Bob Watada, is believed to be one of the first military officers to publicly take steps to refuse his deployment orders.







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“My son has a great deal of courage, and clearly understands what is right, and what is wrong,” Bob Watada said yesterday. “He’s choosing to do the right thing, which is a hard course.”


Watada declined further comment until a news conference planned for 11 a.m. tomorrow at the state Capitol. His son is with a Stryker unit out of Fort Lewis, Wash., and is expected to participate by teleconference.


Jeff Paterson, a former Kaneohe Bay Marine who refused to board a transport in 1990 heading to the Gulf War and now works as an anti-war activist with the organization Not In Our Name, said a second news conference will be held in Tacoma, Wash.


On a Web site Paterson said was created by friends and family, the “Lt.” is quoted as saying: “I refuse to be silent any longer. I refuse to watch families torn apart, while the President tells us to ‘stay the course.’ ... I refuse to be party to an illegal and immoral war against people who did nothing to deserve our aggression. I wanted to be there for my fellow troops. But the best way was not to help drop artillery and cause more death and destruction. It is to help oppose this war and end it so that all soldiers can come home.”


Ehren Watada apparently sought in January to resign his commission, and later asked again and was denied.


Watada, who is not seeking conscientious objector status, but rather has moral objections to the Iraq war, faces the possibility of a court-martial, dishonorable discharge and several years in prison if he refuses the war orders.


According to the GI Rights Hotline, a conscientious objector has a deeply held moral, ethical or religious belief that it is wrong to kill another human being in war.


Some service members discover that opposition after joining the military, and are discharged, the organization said.


Watada doesn’t qualify as a conscientious objector because he does not oppose all wars.


Watada graduated from Hawaii Pacific University in 2003, joined the Army shortly after, went to Officer Candidate School, and incurred a three-year obligation.


The Hawaii man is with the 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry, at Fort Lewis. The unit is part of a larger 3,600-soldier Stryker brigade combat team similar to a unit being developed in Hawaii with about 300 eight-wheeled armored vehicles.


The Fort Lewis brigade is heading to Mosul in northern Iraq, and the soldiers are expected to leave this month and into July.


At a farewell ceremony on Friday, I Corps and Fort Lewis commander Lt. Gen. James Dubik, a former Schofield Barracks commander, said that of 299 million people in the United States, only 2.3 million serve in uniform to defend the nation, the Olympian newspaper reported.


“Less than 1 percent of the nation is carrying 100 percent of the burden of this war,” Dubik said.


But in a sign of increased opposition to the three-year-old Iraq war, anti-war activists demonstrated at the Port of Olympia after Stryker vehicles drove there for shipment, the Olympian reported.


Police used pepper spray on about 100 activists, and 22 people were arrested in one of the more volatile confrontations, the newspaper said.


Paterson, 38, who in 1990 alleged that the Gulf War was about profits and oil in the Middle East and sat down on the tarmac at Kaneohe Bay instead of boarding a transport, said he’s not sure of the number of Iraq or Afghanistan war objectors.


Cases that resulted in court-martial include a Navy sailor sentenced to three months of hard labor for refusing to board a ship headed to the Persian Gulf, a specialist in the National Guard given 120 days in a stand against fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and a soldier sentenced to 15 months for refusing to deploy to Iraq a second time.


Robert Arakaki, the 83-year-old president of the 100th Infantry Battalion Veterans group, who saw combat in Italy in 1945, yesterday said Watada “owes the country a lot.”


There “should be some kind of good explanation” for why Watada wants out, he said, and Arakaki takes issue with claims of an immoral and illegal war.


“Who determines what is legal or illegal? Him or our government? Not him,” Arakaki said.


Retired Navy Cmdr. Jack Miller, past president of the Hawaii chapter of the Military Officers Association of America, said “there’s always been the problem of following orders. This time is no different.”


“Being a Vietnam veteran, we went through this,” said Miller, 72. “The rest of the load had to be shared by those willing to follow orders and serve their country.”


Dependable, loyal officers are needed, and “if one doesn’t fit that qualification, a bad apple will contaminate the barrel. He (Watada) should be punished in some way,” Miller said. “You don’t want someone over there in Iraq who’s not going to willingly follow orders. That’s dangerous.”




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Again, this just really doesn't bother me.
Having lived all over the world, I consider myself lucky to be here.  I don't see this as a big deal.  But then, that's me. 
It doesn't matter when. sm
The bill is about when and not now, meaning NOW, prisoners taken in war are dealt with by us.  The bill is about when Iraq becomes a full democracy and has nothing to do with who cares most about the soldiers.  This just caught my eye on the menu because it is wrong headed. And, if it were true, the media would be headlining it.  They aren't. 
Makes ya wonder doesn't it? (NT)

:-(


She doesn't think we deserved 9/11. nm

No it doesn't Teddy. sm
I can see examples of not agreeing on the very first page and they are still there. 
If it doesn't, whoever votes against it
will probably have a severe media backlash. They made these changes so that the two main arguments - that it covers illegal immigrants and rich people - are discredited. If it doesn't pass, I'm sure they're going to have to deal with the media.
doesn't make me look bad
duh
She doesn't really look pregnant there!
xx
Of course not. It just means she doesn't use it herself.
nm
me too -- being VP doesn't take a politician,
it requires a person with judgment, intelligence, ethics, knowledge about many things, decision-making ability, courage, fortitude, a core morality, etc. She has all these, plus many first-hand experiences and management skills that will help her relate to the ordinary person/person's plight. Yes, many of us have these qualities, at least in part, but she seems to have a double-dose and also the ability to generate excitement and enthusiasm, and is articulate as well. and SHE has been brought into this position based upon her achievements and abilities, unlike you or I, for whatever reasons. She is far from 'just another woman' candidate. I like her a lot. Of course, time will tell as we progress through the election process, but i am fully expecting her to knock Biden's socks off in a debate. I think many of you nay-sayers ought to take another good hard look and see, just see if this McCain/Palin ticket isn't the REAL ticket for change in Washington -- 2 people who in their own right have bucked the system in favor of doing what they see as fit for the people they serve. It's definitely not our ordinary ticket, while Obama has shown himself to be just another politican who has never politically gone against his party or status quo, and changes his tune with the wind of opinion...
I think he has Downs, doesn't he? Isn't that
?
Doesn't work that way.

IF Obama gets in, then Hilary can't run against him next time.  He would be the incumbent, and I don't see her jumping ships.


She can run against McCain in 2012...


This American sure doesn't. nm
nm