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while I am sure that you have the inside scoop on Fox news

Posted By: Kendra on 2008-10-28
In Reply to: Lying through their teeth is not free speech and also - Mrs. M

I have not seen a riot yet (at least not recently), so what riot incitement are you speaking of?


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Well, SbMT, since you seem to have the inside scoop
I sure would like to know which Georgia town you refer to.  Since I live in Georgia (not from there, thank God), where I have personally seen billboards advertising the KKK in the past, I would appreciate a heads-up. 
See inside for news story.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-vote-fraud_frioct10,0,2159694.story
See link to article from Women's News inside.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2046/context/archive
I didn't watch that part. I figured it would be ridiculous. What's the scoop?
x
FOX news IS the news. The only 1 that tells BOTH
nm
It's all over the news - and I mean ALL news stations.
not just the ones you don't like.

inside

I don't think there's anything wrong with laughing at something that is not only very funny but also happens to be true.  Unfortunately, this Administration hasn't given us very much to smile about.


When I read this, nothing led me to believe that Google has a liberal's brain.  By the way how much DID that "poor schlump" part with, since you seem to have all the answers? 


See inside

From your posting:


"So if you and Chomsky are comfortable with putting every man, woman and child in this country at risk to satisfy whatever beef you have against freedom and democracy, fine.  Your freedom of speech had a most terrible and high price tag.  Something tells me that many of these fine men and women, if they could speak now, would not thank you for your thoughts."


I do not recall stating anything related to your above quote.  As I said, you may have me confused with another poster. 


(Inside)

In the first place, I'd like to say thanks for posting here, and you're welcome here any time.


As far as supplying topics to discuss, YOU seem to be the one who is actually supplying the topics.  Today the Conservative board is a pleasant place to be, and even I felt safe responding to a post in your thread.  The topic was excellent, and nowhere have I seen you attack a poster for his or her opinion. 


You haven't come across as confrontational and hateful.  Unfortunately, to a lot of people, these three have done so.


People can debate without personally attacking a poster that doesn't agree with them.  You seem to have done that.  I hope the Conservative board is able to get more posters like you.  You've made it a comfortable place to be.


(inside)

Chill!  LOL.  Gee, you sure are defensive.  I wonder where that came from!


You are NOT on the conservative board any more, and you don't have to walk on eggshells here (although I seem to have acquired a "fan" who has been following me around on this board, taking swipes at everything I say and just generally being unpleasant and contributing nothing of value to any conversation).  If you read the posts here, it's obvious to see whose agenda it is to discuss and debat and whose agenda is restricted to creating discomfort and attacking.


I thought your post was great, and there wasn't one word or phrase in your post above that would imply any lack of respect for a soldier. 


Some people just can't understand that others support the troops by wanting to keep them alive, honor their lives by only placing those lives in jeopardy when absolutely critical and necessary to protect America.  It's obvious you're not "against" our troops, but instead you're trying to fight FOR THEM while they are fighting for HIM and what I believe in the core of my soul to be his personal grudge war.  I believe more and more people are coming to this realization every day and share your thoughts (and mine), as well.


I come here because I like to see what a few certain posters write.  I've been reading these posters' thoughts for a few weeks now, and I find them to be genuine, original and heartfelt.  (If you have any doubt as to who these people are, just follow the long trail of the hateful responses to their posts.)  It's a source of relaxation to me after I finish working.  I've actually made a list of whose posts aren't worth reading any more because they totally lack value and are designed to do nothing but attack and harass.  I'm no longer willing to feed their addiction to hate, and I simply won't respond to them any more.  Again, if you read the board, I'm sure you will see who I'm referring to and why.  Wouldn't surprise me at all if you are their next target.  They can be very upsetting and cause normal, intelligent people to become very defensive.  They bait posters, and it seems to me if they're ignored, their posts will just stand alone, making their motives very, very clear.  (Just my personal opinion, and I only mention it because I don't want anyone to get to you or chase you away from here because they simply aren't worth it.)


I'm really glad to see you here.  Now I have one more reason to continue visiting this board.  I hope you have a great day! 


P.S.  I noted in your first post you mentioned you're a "military brat."  I'd just like to personally thank you and your family for the sacrifices you made for your country and for me as one of its citizens!


Inside.

I'm posting the entire post, since I'm not sure if I copied the link correctly.  It was posted by vs, followed by additional attacks on gt and Brunson complaining of the *bog of eternal stench* that she claims *tends to drift on over here* on the Conservative Board, after nobody from the Liberal Board has bothered them.  Not once.


This is the post on the Conservative Board from vs, but it's not the only objectionable one.


Sorry to see you go





[Post a Reply] [View Follow Ups]      [Politics] --> [Conservatives]


Posted By: vs on 2005-11-28,
In Reply to: I agree with you, MT. SM - Brunson

I understand why though. It's a darn shame that one or two people make this an intolerable place for everyone. Well, if the post count goes down on the boards then maybe they will revisit their policies. At least on these boards the two-initialed Nazi is allowed get away with her genocide of anything conservative, but that's not helping the post count on the board at all.

BTW, I went to the Extremely Politics board, and only a person with a self-esteem death wish would dare post there. I can see why the two-initialed Nazi likes it there. She's free to practice her hate. It's not a place I would want to touch with a 10-foot pole.


http://www.forumatrix.com/ads/frame.cgi?action=main&target=www.forumatrix.com/Channels


See inside. SM

Yes, forgiveness does mean that we have to realize our sins and confess them.   But, unless you are either George Bush himself, his pastor, or his God, how do you know he hasn't?  That is conjecture on your part.  None of us knows what has transpired between this man and his God.  I realize what I am saying will not be popular here, but I don't see a whole lot of Christianity in what I am seeing. Quoting from written sources is not addressing the fact that you are sitting in judgement of someone who is not you.  We aren't supposed to do that.  I hope you all have a blessed Sunday. I am off to church and will certainly pray that God releases from your hearts the hatred you carry.  


See inside. sm

Here is some more from the conference.  So shines a light in a sometimes dim world.    


The sanctity and infinite worth of every human being is a quintessential Jewish value, grounded in the biblical notion that man is made in the image and likeness of God. Against this background, it is ironic and vexatious for many pro–life activists that American Jews tend to line up on the pro–choice side in the struggle over abortion. Affirming the Sanctity of Human Life, a conference held November 12 in Washington, D.C., brought together a hundred or so Jews who are troubled by the Jewish community’s stance toward the unborn, particularly concerning the gruesome late–term procedure known as partial–birth abortion.  The morning session consisted of panel presentations by three Orthodox Jews and a maverick Reform rabbi. Marshall Breger, a law professor and political writer, lamented the fact that Jews support abortion rights more than any religious or ethnic group: they are consistently 15 to 20 percent above the norm, he said, even when controlling for various factors such as religious belief or unbelief, political ideology, social class, etc. He attributed this support, in part, to fears that governmental restrictions on abortion would abridge personal autonomy and impose Christian religious standards on Jewish life. He said that gray areas in Jewish law—its combination of silence and ambiguity regarding the fetus’ status, its handful of exceptional situations allowing abortion—have confused Jews about the permissibility of abortion in general.


Barry Freundel, an Orthodox rabbi from Georgetown, seconded Breger’s sociological account of Jewish fears about abortion as being symbolic of the wider Jewish culture clash with conservative Christian movements. It’s hard to have a conversation about abortion, he said, that doesn’t become a conversation about something else. Even among his own Orthodox congregants, Freundel said, his pro–life preaching is treated as the rabbi getting up on his soapbox again. Nevertheless, he said, he feels obliged to inform them that the absolute license to abort, as practiced in the United States today, is simply impossible to reconcile with traditional Jewish teaching. Judaism, he said, permits abortion in a few limited circumstances, such as to save the life of the mother. He indicated that there is some difference of rabbinic opinion about these circumstances, but stressed that there is no warrant for the overwhelming number of abortions now performed in the U.S. He said that classic Jewish sources really don’t say much about the general moral or metaphysical status of the fetus; but, he added, we have an intuitive response that the fetus is not like an appendix or an in–grown toe nail that can simply be removed at will.


 


Thanks, A.G....(msg inside)
Yes, I figured it out, but I kept thinking surely to goodness he/she would be able to come back with something other condescending mush, but alas, no. The original post could have meant 3 things: (1) he/she was a card-carrying member of the liberal Hate America first club; (2) he/she was championing minorities and their mistreatment 200 years ago, which I find strange when they tell us we can't go back 20 years to support a position; or (3) he/she was comparing what happened with Native Americans and blacks in our past to what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust, which is absolutely ridiculous, they are nowhere near the same. Since he/she came back in a post with how he/she *I generally avoid using the racial/ethnic I'm being picked on because of my race/country of origin/gender/you name it cliche also but I'll make an exception in your case.* so I don't much think she champions minorities very much...that rules out #2. I am leaning real hard toward #1, but after some of her later posts, it could well be #3. Or a combination of #1 and #3. I am still waiting for her to give me the name of one of those several countries she said she knew about who did not have any kind of mistreatment of their own citizens at some point in their history. I didn't ask for several, I just asked for one. Have a good day, AG!

9-11 Inside job
You posted a laundry list. Can you support any of that? Where did this come from? What is your source?
Uh oh...LLD :-) see inside
good post.  I agree.      with just one exception...I think there ought to be something included in the program that makes allowances for the cost of living where the recepient lives.  At least some kind of adjustment to level the playing field.  I know someone can get decent housing where I used to live in Oklahoma much more reasonably than they can were I now live in the Northeast...so a bigger chunk out of the $80 grand where I live now than where I used to live.  What do you feel about that?  (not baiting you, really interested)  That is basically why I did not think expanding the program higher up the income ladder was a good idea...that coupled with it needing to be fixed to get illegals out of it and from more illegals getting on it. 
see inside...
1. Yes.

2. Most of them, yes, they have been needed, whether you or I think so or not.

3. Yes, although McCain will not be exactly that same kind of leadership.

Why?

At this point in time, this country is still in need of the Republicans (or what is posing as Republican this election year, as McCain is more of a centrist than true Republican, much to my chagrin). However, he has what we need, at this point in time.

If he's smart, McCain will chose Romney as his VP, as economy is sorely in need of someone who knows what they're doing.

Obama, is not what we need. He cannot fix anything, has not ever run anything, has no real experience, and quite frankly, I have no desire to have a socialistic pseudo-communist president, thank you very much.

My gut feeling tells me that Obama is not presidential material, period, no matter how much the liberal media tries to coronate him and cram him down our throats. (Hillary isn't prez material either, by the way...too much baggage, and "it's my turn" mentality)

I am an Independent, have voted for all parties, at one time or another (even though it may pain me to say I voted for Anderson, lo all those years ago...lol...in hindsight, I should have voted Reagan.)

But believe me, if Obama was the real deal, I would be right there for him, but sadly, he is not. He has made too many fatal errors of late, the most recent was caving to the Clintons and giving them free reign over the DNC. He is not a true leader, in my eyes.

He will not win in November, mark my words.
please see inside
Seriously, I believe that all the things that enable a person to endure such torture over an extended period of time builds character and traits that are essential to leadership. So if you put 5 years in a prison camp up
see inside...
Her youngest son is named Trig Paxson Van Palin. After Trig was born, a spokesperson for Palin said that Trig is Norse for true and brave victory. His middle name, Paxson, is the name of an area of Alaska that Palin and her husband think is "one of the most beautiful spots in Alaska," according to a report on MSNBC.

Palin is on record joking that she was naming Trig "Van Palin" after eighties rockers Van Halen.

Bristol, Palin's oldest daughter, 17, means "meeting place by the bridge," according to thinkbabynames.com. Bristol is Old English and is the name of an important town in England, which many US cities were named after as well. It has not ranked in the top 1000 baby names in the US in the last 100 years. Bristol is also the name of a bay in Alaska where Palin's brother-in-law is a fisherman.

I have not found out about the rest yet.

see inside
I kinda like that name ... ROTFL

ok .. I'm finding this is difficult to put into words.

It's his tone of voice and his mannerisms at times. It's his attitude about why things are as bad as they are -- it's like he wants to blame Bush solely for it ALL, and that is just not the way this country operates.

I guess my answer is it is just my gut reaction to him.

I'm sure this is not an an adequate explanation (going to put the flame suit on, LOL)).

I sincerely apologize for not giving you a better answer, maybe later I can. I have to go to work now..

really gone this time!
yep, see inside
“I make [decisions] as quickly as I can, quicker than the other fellow, if I can. Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”
see inside
Slash teen pregnancy funding:
Washington Post’s false accusation that Gov. Sarah Palin “slashed” funding for a teen pregnancy program, when in reality, there was “over a threefold increase from the government funds they received from all sources in 2006 (FY2006 ending 12/31/06).”

She and her husband each owned 20% of the car wash so it was not controlling interest. Who owned the controlling interest?

Don't know about the books...everything I read that was on a blog and basically said she asked the question, but it can't be verified that I can find.
see inside
It seems to me you would like to justify how "innocent" this is by posting a link of someone who said "don't read into this". I know the poster isn't actually linking the two together, but there are a lot of "less informed" people who read Osama bin laden and Obama/Biden...yup, gotta be the same, they must be alike, Obama must be a terrorist. Believe me they are out there because I have read different web sites (can't remember where) that were saying they were connected together. This is why I take offense at it. Because there are stup!d people who can't tell the difference. Besides...this subject already came up with a big uproar the last time. How many times are we going to keep posting the same thing. And the last time it came up the poster said it was "freaky" and this is what this poster said so it leads me to believe its the same poster that wants to keep stirring up a hornets nest. When someone is offended by a post why can't others just say "I'm sorry it offended you" and drop it. That's all I'm asking to drop it. Not bring it up every other day or so.
No it's not....see inside
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

http://www.charlotteconservative.com/index.php/2008/02/global-warming-wrong-again/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

http://www.oism.org/pproject/



There's a lot of scientists against global warming. Inform yourselves of the facts, not scare tactics by the media and AL Gore.

Right on - see inside
Its like the inquisition is in full gear once again.

I guess Pagan would be a good way to describe me. I believe that life is in everything. I love going into the woods and just sitting by the trees by myself and listening to the earth spirits talk to me. I respect Mother Earth and all her beautiful gifts she gives us. The last time I went into a church the hair on my neck stood up. Never went back there.
See inside....
"Most partial-birth abortions are performed in the fifth and sixth months of pregnancy. Even early in the fifth month, babies who are expelled by premature labor will often be born alive. At that stage the baby's lungs are too undeveloped to permit sustained survival, but if the baby draws breath it is a LIVE BIRTH." To my definition, the 5th or 6th month is late-term. Semantics maybe.

Even with the existing partial birth abortion ban, it is still recognized as a procedure that can be used to save the life of the mother, even though no physician will go on record saying they EVER had an instance where that procedure was necessary to save the life of the mother.

That is why the baby is turned around so that it is breech, so that the brain can be collapsed inside the mother...because if the head comes first and it takes a breath it is considered a live birth and protected by the Constitution like the rest of us...until the practice of infanticide came along and was practiced until that nurse in Illinois threw a fit and brought it to public attention.

So I am not wrong, and it is not a lie.




Here it is (inside) ... the one from
DELETE: Don't open!


http://www.obamacrimes.com/attachments/028_Obama,%20Motion%20for%20Leave%20and%20First%20Amended%20Complaint.pdf


see inside
I can't find a video on it, however, it made the rounds on news shows today....

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=31736
see inside....
Yes, McCain has a refundable tax credit for health insurance. Is it aimed at a specific income group? No. Does it eliminate anyone's tax liability? No it doesn't. It isn't welfare.

Obama's refundable tax cut says specifically it will eliminate federal taxes for 10 million low income workers. People who heretofore WERE paying taxes, you have assured me repeatedly. Taxing "the rich" more to make up for that loss of revenue is marxist redistribution of wealth. There is nothing remotely like that in McCain's credit. It is basically welfare...giving a tax credit to eliminate taxes and making up the lost revenue by taxing others who make more.

You explain to me how that is NOT redistribution of wealth. He said it himself. Spreading the wealth. At least he IS honest about it.
see inside
First off, when you have a private conversation with a sitting president, it should remain private. One should be able to keep private, sensitive matters private...or in other words, to be able to keep your mouth shut.

Does anyone really want so much transparency that we know exactly what goes on every time Obama sits down to talk to a world leader, especially when it comes to our enemies? Does anyone really think world leaders will want to sit down and be honest with someone that leaks their conversations out right after they've had them?

But if it's "transparency" that you want, then Obama in this case, was just trying to make Bush look bad. But it blew up on him, and he had to retract.


This paragraph tells the lie. The first report of the leak was that they "horse traded"...see below...when in reality, no such think occurred, and the white house made them retract, as the articles state.


Barack Obama's transition team described as inaccurate news reports that irked President Bush claiming that the two had been horse trading over signing a second economic stimulus bill in exchange for congressional passage of the Colombia Free Trade deal.



But you know what, I really do give up. Obama supporters will never find any fault whatsoever with anything that he does. He's not perfect, and I just wish his supporters would at least agree that he's human, and that he's going to make mistakes.




See inside
Amanda, I'll try one more time. Only two people were in that room. Bush and Obama.

Obama came out of this first, private, oval office meeting and what was leaked to the press was that Obama urged Bush to get relief to the auto indutry and a stimulus plan I believe. Obama said that Bush said he would only do it if the Columbia trade agreement was pushed through Congress first.



So.


There is no way Bush or Bush aides would leak any of this information.



This information came from Obama. From a private conversation. To Obama aides. Who leaked this to the press. Who lied and said that Bush wanted the Columbia trade agreement signed before he would sign any other agreements.



This was a lie.


The White House was upset and asked for a retraction, as it was a lie.



It was retracted. By the Obama camp.




I personally do not want such transparency from a president. It shows me what little character he has.



I know it seems different to an Obama supporter.


So with that, good night. I don't blame you or the just the big bad poster for not being able to see what I see.



Night and take care.


Please don't anyone bash me, I can't take it anymore..............
see inside
Careful, Just me, we'll be called racist if try to link the O to treason. Not that I disagree with you at all........
see inside
In the realm of religious fanaticism a whirling Dervish was somebody who spun round and round until they got so dizzy they entered a prophetic state.  This is what is also known as an obot. 
Found it. See inside.

I'm forwarding this to Alan Combs, Greta Van Sustern (sp) and Bill O'Rielly.  Thanks.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


AIKEN -- The 6-year-old Aiken girl who'd been dead for up to 14 hours before being taken to a hospital was beaten to death, authorities said Thursday.


And the woman who called Chaquise Gregory her life and her baby is being charged with homicide in the child's death.






1 / 2


Special

Aiken County Department of Public Safety officers lead a handcuffed Kathy Salley away from her residence in the 500 block of Abbeville Avenue. She is charged with homicide by child abuse.

Aiken police arrested Kathy Salley, 26, at her Aiken home Thursday evening and booked her into the Aiken County Deten¤tion Center.


She'll be charged with homicide by child abuse this morning, Aiken Public Safety Sgt. David Turno said.


Police arrested Ms. Salley on an outstanding warrant for fraudulent checks to get her in jail, he said.


An autopsy found that Chaquise, who'd moved to a home in the 500 block of Abbeville Avenue in Aiken with Ms. Salley in May or early June, died from a severe beating, he said.


Authorities had already revealed that Chaquise had been dead between 10 and 14 hours when Ms. Salley took her to an Aiken hospital June 23.


"That's all we can tell you," Sgt. Turno said. "I do not believe they're going to go into the full evidence of the case, but we do know it was from a severe beating."


Aiken County Coroner Tim Carlton said he couldn't release many details about what killed Chaquise, except that the beating "caused some internal-type malfunction in the body that caused her death."


Mr. Carlton said there were no drugs found in the child's system, but "there were some older injuries that we're looking into that may or may not have been related to previous abuse."


The autopsy found no broken bones, but there was evidence of past breaks.


Mr. Carlton said the initial results indicate that the child was not sexually abused, but he would not rule it out completely.


She was not molested "that I'm aware of at this point," he said.


Capt. Maryann Burgess, who has been the investigator in the case, said she can't say how many others may have been involved in Chaquise's death or what charges they face.


"We know where they are," she said.


She said investigators also have not been able to verify that Ms. Salley had legal custody of Chaquise, which she claimed.


If convicted of homicide by child abuse, Ms. Salley faces between 20 years in prison and a life sentence.


In an interview with The Augus¤ta Chronicle on June 27 - five days after Chaquise was pronounced dead - Ms. Salley denied any wrongdoing in her death. Ms. Salley said she'd raised Chaquise since she was 3 years old.


"She was the only child I could ever have," she said, and questioned how the girl's biological family could think she was responsible.


Ms. Salley hinted that another person living with her and Chaquise - and who m she said she'd left the child with the night before - may have had something to do with the little girl's death.


"I can't point fingers when I don't know what went on in this house while I was gone," she'd said.


According to preliminary autopsy results that were released soon after her death, Chaquise had been dead between 10 and 14 hours before Ms. Salley took her to Aiken Regional Medical Centers.


Capt. Burgess said the additional autopsy results she received Wednesday led to Ms. Salley's arrest.


Ms. Salley told The Chronicle that authorities found bruises on Chaquise's arm and bottom, and cigarette burns on her shoulder and back.


Mr. Carlton said investigators are still trying to determine whether those marks were cigarette burns.


"It's just a tragic incident that was visited on a defenseless child," Mr. Carlton said. "And if the allegations are all true, then we certainly hope that the law and criminal justice system will be the defender of this child's rights."


You might be right, on the other hand. (see inside)

Message inside.

I thought so, too, when I first read it, but there's a whole website dedicated to nothing but this kind of hatefulness. How could anyone communicate reasonably, intelligently and productively with a follower of this kind of religion? 


Sad, isn't it?


Again... WHERE DID I SAY I HAVE AN INSIDE TRACK?

What you copied and pasted was an opinion which I stated.


Nowhere in any of my posts do I claim to have an *inside track* to anything.  That's YOUR ridiculous claim, not mine!


see link inside...........sm
http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm
actually there is a message inside above..nm

Link inside. sm

Sorry. Link inside.

 


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1107-20.htm


I agree with you on this - see inside

While Moore does bring up some very good points, he rarely follows through to a logical conclusion and seems to go off in every direction possible.  He also had his facts in Sicko very incorrect.  He is saying there are 47 million people uninsured.  He did not take into account the people who are eligible and refuse to apply for Medicare or Medicaid and all the illegal aliens.  SO, when you take them out of the equation there are 30 million without proper health insurance, still quite a few to be sure, but he does not represent the facts with his numbers on this. 


Okay...apology inside.

Sorry for involving everyone in what turned into a personal confrontation.  In stepping back as some of you have suggested, I examined my feelings and I do feel badly.  I took it too personally and I should not have, though when someone says "you this" and "you that" it is hard not to take it personally.  It is hard not to take it personally when someone calls you a bigot, ignorant...and many other not-so-nice names.  I got my back up...but that is a human reaction in my opinion.  I jus should have shut it down sooner, I agree.


In GW's defense, I think she is very frustrated with the immigration situation because of incidents close to her, understandable, and I became the personification of all she hates about Republicans, conservatives etc., in effect, the object of venting.  Again, I should not have taken it so personally and tried to understand more where that hatred was coming from.


So, I apologize to GW, I apologize to all of you, that I let it get out of hand.  Hard as it may be for some of you to believe, I am not a confrontational person.  Every one of us, at some point, gets all we can stand and feel like we have to stand up.  I just should not have kept it going so long.  We were beating a dead horse and we should have stopped...both of us.


So...sorry, GW.  I know we do not agree on many things and never will.  However, I am as responsible as you for it going on for so long.  And for that I apologize, to you and to others on the board.


And I appreciate the wise moderator who just let it play out.    Cooling myself off.  :)


See inside for link

Please see the below link for the previous time this was brought up.


Definitions....see inside


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative

http://www.conservapedia.com/Liberal


There's much more. Just Google for different sites for unbiased definitions. Go to reliable sources, not opinions of the other side, to see definitions.

Then decide for yourself.






See link inside.
See link below:
See inside for link.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1839724-1,00.html

Obama and the pic inside....sm

They say he wouldn't put his hand over his heart and say the Pledge of Allegiance.  If this is true.....why would anyone want him as our president?  There has also been rumors that he refused to wear an American flag pin.  I've heard others as well.  I just can't remember what they were.  Just so much talk about how he doesn't/won't hold on to our age old American beliefs and traditions.  I don't hold too much to rumors and stuff but this picture speaks volumes to me.  I looked it over carefully to see if I could tell if it was photoshopped but I'm not seeing anything.  The shadows look right and so does everything else.  I'd just like to get some opinions and try to make sense of why we would want a man as our president who won't even support the most American thing there is?  If this rumor and the others like it our false I really would like to know. []


see inside for the comment:
“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

That is an elitist statement. Like he has any clue what the "flyover" Americans think or feel. It was condescending and elitist and he was playing to the condescending and elitist crowd he was talking to in San Francisco.

I did not say he was an elitist, but he certainly made an elitist comment. That would lead one to believe either he is an elitist and believes what he said (which I tend to think is true) or he does not real feel that way and just lied through his teeth playing to his audience. Either way is not flattering.
Please see inside Kaydie....
The founding fathers were Christians...

Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
______________________________________________________________________

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean He!!." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, Editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."


“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin

• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
“ The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.

New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ

And the Constitution, Bill of Rights does not mention religion only as exclusionary: Amendments
First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please refer to the phrase "or prohibit the free exercise thereof." That is not exclusionary.


Here's the same story on ABC.?. see inside
I thought AOL was considered a liberal site, but I guess not. Here's ABC with a bit more information, but basically the same story:


Inside the White House: What Went Wrong?
Sources in the Meeting Tell ABC News Why the Talk Turned Into a Screaming Match
By JONATHAN KARL
Sept. 26, 2008


If all had gone according to plan, Thursday's White House meeting would have been a triumphant photo opportunity, where top Democratic and Republican congressional leaders come together with the president and the two presidential candidates to support a plan for stabilizing the financial markets. Instead, the meeting devolved into a shouting match that nearly derailed the economic bailout plan.

Here's an account of what happened, based on conversations with several of those present, both Democrats and Republicans:

The first sign of trouble: Twenty minutes before the White House meeting, Treasury Secretary Henry "Hank" Paulson calls House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to say there are problems with the agreement reached earlier in the afternoon. Pelosi is miffed. Democrats believed the issues Paulson raised had already been resolved.


President Bush opens the meeting at 4 p.m., quickly turning it over to Paulson who gives a status report on the markets and says, "We need to get this done quickly." Paulson turns it over to Pelosi, who defers to Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid, who defers to Sen. Barack Obama. Obama starts things off for the Democrats by reiterating his principles on what the plan should include. Obama agrees with Paulson on the need to act quickly but says some on the Hill "don't understand the need for the rush." Some of the Republicans took this as an attack on them.

Obama then defers to Sen. John McCain, but McCain defers to House Republican Leader John Boehner to speak on behalf of the Republicans. Boehner says House Republicans have "a lot of problems" with the plan and "most of my caucus is not there."

At this point, the meeting is still fairly cordial. Pelosi even compliments the president on his speech Wednesday night. But the meeting starts to devolve.

After some more give and ake, Sen. Richard Shelby, the top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, presents a five-page list of 192 economists and business school professors who oppose the plan. Bush isn't impressed. "I don't care what somebody on some college campus says," Bush says. Instead, he says he trusts Hank Paulson, who, he says, has more than 35 years of experience and access to more information than those academics on Shelby's list.

Boehner says House Republicans have a different idea: providing federal insurance for mortgage securities instead of buying them outright.

Obama chimes in again, asking Paulson what he thinks about the insurance idea. Paulson says he thinks the idea is unworkable, and adds, "We can't start over."

After 43 minutes, McCain finally speaks. He says there are "legitimate concerns that need to be listened to" and that there has been "significant progress" in incorporating his principles into the bill. "We have one shot at getting this done right," he says. McCain does not get specific. "He said a whole lot of nothing," says one Republican in the room.

Shortly after that, things get a whole lot worse. Rep. Spencer Baucus, the top Republican on the House Financial Services Committee, speaks in favor of the Republican alternative, setting Rep. Barney Frank, the Democratic chairman of the committee, into a rage. Frank accuses Republicans of "sandbagging" him by bringing up a plan he's never seen. There's more shouting. The president brings the meeting back to order and urges everybody to get back together because "we need to get this done." The deciding factor for him on any final deal, he says, is whether or not Hank Paulson says it will work.

The meeting ends, but the fireworks are yet to come.

Democrats go back into the Roosevelt Room to discuss whether to go out to the cameras waiting on the White House driveway. Paulson comes in and literally begs them not to go out and criticize the meeting. For dramatic effect, Paulson gets down on one knee and says, "Please, I beg you, don't blow this up."

Barney Frank, shouting, "Don't give me that bulls**t."

More Frank: "Hank, you've got a problem here. Republicans want to torpedo this."

Pelosi is also outraged, but the Democrats decide not to go out as a group to the microphones.




http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=5895827&page=1