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All the while, his supporters taking notes

Posted By: on how to turn the tables. szq on 2008-09-05
In Reply to: obama's comment - Flambe

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A couple notes
Ty Sam for your unbiased comments. I understand you totally - just bringing up issues you have heard.

Here's a couple things I understand about the situation.

Bill & Hillary were trying to file this petition, but not until after she started losing. It ranks up there with the "Florida fiasco" she created but then tried to overturn. In fact I believe they were trying to claim he was born in Kenya at the same time they said Florida didn't matter and agreed to not count Florida until they were losing, then they decided they wanted their votes (unfortunately it was a little too late for them). Bill & Hillary were (are) so desparate to get back into the white house that they were grasping at anything. I think it was ruled that Barack was born in Hawaii (not Kenya) according to the birth certificate. Which I'm sure had to be verified before he would even be eligible to run. My gut feeling is that Bill & Hillary were trying to get a lot of people to believe that he was born in Kenya so they would vote against him. Luckily for Barack their "plan" didn't work. It would have been devastating for him to lose based on a lie put out by the Clintons mis-informing people just so they could win (as I read that I just realized that is what campaign ads do. They put out lies about their oponents - both sides). Anyway...heard it was overturned and his birth certificate does say he was born in Hawaii. Also, like the other poster said if your born to American citizens but are born outside the US (like the military in Germany) you are still considered a natural born citizen.

On a side note, I heard Gov. Ed Rendell talk and for the first time I finally agree with him on what he was saying. For the first time he finally made statement that were rational. I do know that he was big big big Hillary supporter and spoke out against Obama when she was running against him, but yesterday or the day before I heard him talking and he said that Obama was clearly qualified and would make a fine president, blah, blah, blah (can't remember the whole speech). He went down the list of things he doesn't think McCain is good at and why he would not be a good president, and went down the list as to why he felt Barack was the best candidate. So for him to do a total turn around I gained a little respect for him.
notes from the underground

Hi folks, sarah and I are both hiding underground now.  Please vote for us and we will pop up like groundhogs for the inauguration.


 


notes from the low road...
hi folks, Joe and I are going to keep on campaigning (fiddling while Rome burns) and they will call us if they need us....hey! Wonder why they aren't calling???
They BOTH had notes. I thought she did
x
NOTES FROM NEW ORLEANS: A Hard Head Makes A Soft Behind...sm

NOTES FROM NEW ORLEANS: A Hard Head Makes A Soft Behind


By Deborah Cotton

By now, you’ve heard the election results – Mayor Nagin against Lieutenant Governor Mitch Landrieu in the run-off, the mayor coming away with the a large number of the Black vote, including those of my Black friends who swore they were done with him.  As one brother later told me, “At the end of the day, I had to go with my own.” 


     Forcing the issue of having a Black mayor for New Orleans, even when all his actions demonstrate an inability or unwillingness to make issues important to the Black community a priority, in the hopes that it will help us reclaim our ‘Chocolate City’, strikes me as, well…hard-headed. 



     I went to the Sheraton Election Night to cover Nagin’s speech.  The room was filled with nothing but Black faces, so shocking considering just two months ago, you couldn’t hardly find a Black person with a New Orleans driver’s license who had anything nice to say about our Mayor’s on-the-job performance.  I looked into those faces, faces of friends and people I’d met out at rallies and neighborhood planning meetings, all of whom openly discussed their dissatisfaction with the current leadership.  But this mayor’s race was no longer about the future of New Orleans.  This race has become about race. 



     At Nagin’s Election Night party, there was a distinct feeling of Black people welcoming the prodigal son back home, of redemption of the husband who strayed.  Once it was clear his White majority supporters were backing anyone but him, he started out on the ‘Back To Africa’ tour so many of our prodigal sons and daughters have performed in – OJ Simpson, Mariah, Vanessa…and was successful in securing a large number of Black votes.  There were literally tears in the eyes of many of the women there, cracked voices calling out “We love you!”  “Speak your truth!”  They loved that he said “Chocolate City” and pissed White people off. 



     The room was electric and his speech had some profound moments.  But then… the classic Nagin kicked in and he said something that fell like a bad note in his otherwise melodic song.   



     “This economic pie is getting ready to explode.  And it will be shared equally.  I want the community to get more comfortable with the Ray Nagin type. The Joe Canizaro type...”


     Smiles and tears froze.



     Joe Canizaro is a local land developer and one of President Bush’s biggest campaign contributors.  When Nagin tapped his choices for the ‘Bring Back New Orleans’ advisory panel that would create a rebuilding plan for New Orleans, he followed Canizaro’s advice and stepped over local talent and intelligentsia and hired consultants from Los Angeles called the ‘Urban Planning Institute’, of which Canizaro was a long time board member.  Many New Orleanians were upset they had so little representation on the BNOB panel.  And the ones that were included on the panel, like City Council President Oliver Thomas, voiced frustration at being dis-included from many a luncheon and social gathering were decisions and deals were made about the rebuilding plan.  When the plan was finally unveiled, it was clear to those watching why the planning lunches were secret.


     When the BNOB committee presented it plan to the public at the Marriot Hotel last November, we saw a map of New Orleans on the overhead screen that had large green swatches over areas that the ULI recommended for permanent closure -the Ninth Ward, New Orleans East, and Gentilly.  These areas are predominately Black communities.  Even more telling about the agenda of the planners was the fact that the plan made no mention of where else in New Orleans the residents of these closed Black neighborhoods could move to. 



     A plan for a new New Orleans.  “Oh, we don’t know where ‘those’ people went…” Residents were absolutely livid.  So much so that the ULI returned to the community months later with a revised plan that said the neighborhoods proposed for phasing out would be given four months to prove they could repopulate and be viable or the city would begin a forced buy-out program.  There still seemed to be a lack of understanding on the part of the from-out-of-town panel that people have not been able to repopulate their neighborhoods because their houses are destroyed, the insurance companies are denying claims across the board, landlords are price gouging the rental market, and FEMA’s STILL not provided even half the trailers requested. 



     Just as the BNOB panel began to take public comments after their presentation of the revised plan, a huge Black man bellowed out like a sonic boom from the back of the room:


“You’re not taking my land!!  If you come trying to take my property, you’re gonna have a baby Iraq on your hands!  Nobody worked the jobs I’ve worked, taking crap from employers I didn’t wanna take, to make my note every month to sit here and have you tell me I can’t rebuild MY own home!!  That’s my house and if you thinking ‘bout coming to take my land, you betta come heavy.  And Joe Canizaro – I HATE YOU!”



     Mr. Harvey’s explosion was a pivotal moment in this early phase of our reconstruction.  His face made the front page of the paper and he’s since been interviewed by dozens of media outlets.  His roaring outburst exposed the stifled anger, disgust, rage, pain, and grief so many homeowners felt at the slap in the face by these Los Angeles-based, Nagin-Canizaro sponsored planners. 



     Blacks here have an over-arching mistrust of Canizaro.  And the moment Nagin uttered his name on Election Night as someone we need to be checking for, we witnessed the first signs of the prodigal son returning to his old ways. 



     I looked at the Black faces around me, their responses to his Canizaro remark, and saw frozen smiles – and determination.  Determination to go forward, against all the signs and track record of what they knew they didn’t want, for fear of losing our Black foothold in local government. 



     “Don’t we even get to keep that?”, we ask ourselves here in the New Orleans.  ‘We lost our homes, every last stick of furniture, every appliance, photo albums and grandmother’s jewelry and all our files and the dog too and family, friends, neighbors we grew up with – everything that give context and meaning for even being here in this life…’  The only thing many Black people got out of here with before the levees broke, besides our memories, was their Black skin.  And a feeling is alive here that if we lose our Black leadership, the only thing that survived in New Orleans, we won’t have a future here. 



     When I first moved to New Orleans, I was saturated in blackness and I loved it.  Black people were everywhere and it really felt like another country, other than the United States.  One of my favorite jaunts then, and still today, is to go to City Hall and revel in the family vibe where ‘my folks’ are running things.  No other public office have I ever felt so comfortable, so…relevant.  And so included.   



     I, too, am still constantly wrestling with strong emotions about being a Black public figure, a Black woman, tearing away from the fold, away from ‘the Black man’.  I’d love nothing more than to be wrong about Mayor Nagin’s ability to lead us out of darkness.  But…you know - especially you ladies - how you know something deep inside that you don’t want to be true, so you say to yourself, ‘Maybe I’m wrong…’  But later on, when the sh-t hits the fan, you realize how foolish it was to doubt what your wisdom and intuition told you. 



     New Orleans can’t afford false pride based on race.  Our empire has been completely demolished.  Sometimes, there’s so much to do, so much wrong here that needs addressing, and you get so overwhelmed trying to hold it together, you just sit back down and start crying.  Crying for the old days.



     And that’s when faith comes in.  Faith that if we walk on what we know is His truth, that He’ll provide the best outcome.  And if we force things to be our way, moving from a limited, human mentality of fear, we’ll just end up with more of this hard knocks life. 



     My grandmother used to tell me whenever I was cutting up, “A hard head makes a soft behind!”  Her words came rushing to me when Mayor Nagin finished his speech and the DJ fired up the room with a song from the Gap Band:



‘Oops! Upside Your Head’


Sounds like foreshadowing to me…



     Deborah Cotton is a freelance journalist and public speaker based in New Orleans, covering on-the-ground stories of the city’s recovery and chronicling the rebuilding efforts of the historic Ninth Ward.  She can be reached at Deborah.cotton@gmail.com.


* From now until May 7th, check out her election/Jazz Fest coverage in her daily blog ‘The Second Line’ on http://blackvoices.aol.com


So many B.O. supporters are
mesmorized by the promise of change that they can't see or hear anything else but that.  They have their rose colored glasses on and live in Obama fairy land.  The idea of Obama actually becoming president scares the sh1t out of me.  I hope and pray that there are enough people out there who have done the research and realize actually what "change" Obama will bring to our country and how it will ruin it.  God help us all!!!
supporters?

We all hear a lot of support for each candidate on this board.  Curious if anyone has put their money where their mouth is?  What extent would you/have you gone for the candidate you favor?


I'm taking this to the top.
x
McCain's supporters...........sm
McCain supporters at a recent town hall meeting. Ron Paul supporters in a march in D.C. last Saturday.

http://bayimg.com/naJmkaaBO
Obama supporters, I need your help
I am a conservative Republican, but am undecided in this election.  My best friend is a liberal Democrat and she is hosting an Obama Party this Friday.  I've been trying to become educated on where Obama stands on some of the issues and what his plans are once he becomes president, but I'm obviously looking in the wrong places.  I have a very open mind and want to be part of the conversation at this party, but I want to know what's being talked about.  Can anyone give me some reputable websites that will give me any of this information?  It would be greatly appreciated!
If Obama has supporters like you,
nm
O supporters with moxey.
nm
Why is it so many Obama supporters
sound like you? Always angry, negative, militant nay-sayers who never seem want to allow anyone else to have an opinion that does not agree with yours. I've heard you spiel before too. I will be glad when McCain wins the presidency and stops all these rumors. I've heard more than enough about someone who really hasn't accomplished much of anything of significance.
You asked the supporters why and they
gave you what they thought, why are you "attacking" this person because you don't like their answer.

It is truly a ridiculous question. It is a flippin' pin. Does it really matter? Shouldn't we be more interested in the people who are running views and formats, be they Democrat or Republican. Why do we keep getting caught up in all of this garbage?!!

Many people were taught that the hand goes on the chest during the pledge and you sing the anthem.
FOR MCCAIN SUPPORTERS

I received this in email this morning. I couldn't find it posted here already, so:


Check this out.........and be sure to read it to the very end.
 
Three former Fannie Mae executives


Here is a quick look into 3 former Fannie Mae executives who have brought down Wall Street.
 
Franklin Raines was a Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae.  Raines was forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae when auditing discovered severe irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting activities. At the time of his departure The Wall Street Journal noted, ' Raines, who long defended the company's accounting despite mounting evidence that it wasn't proper, issued a statement late Tuesday conceding that 'mistakes were made' and saying he would assume responsibility as he had earlier promised. News reports indicate the company was under growing pressure from regulators to  shake up its management in the wake of findings that the company's books ran afoul of generally accepted accounting principles for four years.'  Fannie Mae had to reduce its surplus by $9 billion.
 
Raines left with a 'golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits. The Government filed suit against Raines when the depth of the accounting scandal became clear.
http://housingdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/ .
The Government noted, 'The 101 charges reveal how the individuals  improperly manipulated earnings to maximize their bonuses, while knowingly neglecting accounting systems and internal controls, misapplying over twenty accounting principles and misleading the regulator and the public. The Notice explains how they submitted six years of misleading and inaccurate accounting statements and inaccurate capital reports that enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an unsafe and unsound manner.'  These charges were made in 2006.
The Court ordered Raines to return $50 Million Dollars he received in bonuses based on the miss-stated Fannie Mae profits.

Tim Howard -  Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard 'was a strong internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would ensure a 'stable pattern of earnings' at Fannie. In everyday English - he was cooking the books.  The Government Investigation determined that, 'Chief Financial Officer, Tim Howard, failed to provide adequate oversight to key control and reporting functions within Fannie Mae,'
 
On June 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La., asked the Justice Department to investigate his allegations that two former Fannie Mae  executives lied to Congress in October 2004 when they denied manipulating the mortgage-finance giant's income statement to achieve management pay bonuses. Investigations  by federal regulators and the company's board of directors since concluded that management did manipulate 1998 earnings to trigger bonuses.
Raines and Howard resigned under pressure in late 2004.
 
Howard's Golden Parachute was estimated at $20 Million!
 
 
Jim Johnson -  A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was later forced from his position as Fannie Mae CEO.
A look at the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report on mismanagement and corruption inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some interesting things about Johnson. Investigators found that Fannie Mae had hidden a substantial amount of Johnson's 1998 compensation from the public, reporting that it was between $6 million and $7 million when it fact it was $21 million.'  Johnson is currently under investigation for taking illegal loans from
Countrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie Mae.
 
Johnson's Golden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.

 
 
WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
 
FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines works for the Obama Campaign as Chief Economic Advisor
 
TIM HOWARD?  Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to Obama
 
JIM JOHNSON?  Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisor and was selected to run Obama's Vice Presidential Search Committee 
 
 
IF OBAMA PLANS ON CLEANING UP THE MESS - HIS ADVISORS HAVE  THE EXPERTISE - THEY MADE THE MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Would you trust the men who tore Wall Street down to build the New Wall Street?


 


A lot of Obama supporters do
xx
obama supporters sure don't like
--
And the O supporters, dems,

and left-wing media don't just repeat what they see and hear?  LOL!  Oh please.  Half of the Obamanation supporters spout exactly what Obama says and only seeing the promise of change.....which I might add....WON'T HAPPEN.  Obama can't do anything he promises and if he does.....our country will be totally FUBARed (f*cked up beyond all recognition).


obama supporters
I have been visiting this board for a little while and I will say that I will never visit EVER AGAIN.  I have never witnessed such nastiness and hatred on BOTH sides of this political forum.  One side thinks they are better than the other; the self-righteous blathering about 'who is more of an American' calling people horrible names like 'oreo', 'half-breeds', 'low-lifes', etc - even stooping  so low as to call people 'baby-killers'.  You all seem to forget one thing:  WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, NO MATTER WHO IS ELECTED.  And whatever happens, all of us will be affected and as much in the toilet this country has been in for the past eight years - NONE OF US IS BETTER THAN OUR FELLOW MAN.  Period.
Whatever Obama supporters are, they are
nm
Hey, Obama supporters ...

What do you say we all switch and vote a dirty old maverick into the White House?


Sorry, just felt the urge to be an @$$. 


To Obama supporters: s/m

I don't normally post on this board, I stay over on the MT boards, but I have one thing to say from my heart:  Please remember that you reap what you sow.  All of the years of the Bush-bashing from the left...it was always "okay" to do that because Bush is an "imbecile" or whatever other hateful names he was called.  You didn't agree with his policies, etc.  So let's bash him.  Forget that he is a human being with people who love him.  I believe he did the best he could with what he had to work with in terms of faulty intelligence given to him and the unimaginable stress of being the Leader of the Free World. 


Well, now the tables have turned.  I, personally, do not intend to bash Obama until he does/does not do something I disagree with, but when the time comes that some people might have the gall to disagree with something Obama does and refer to him in a negative way by calling him names or otherwise, please remember how it was *okay* for the left to do it to Bush.  Just remember that.  The time will come when the hateful negativity comes back on you with a vengeance. 


Thanks for listening. 


Obama supporters....
When are you going to quit your job? Do we have to wait until he's sworn in to sit home and collect welfare from the tax increases....or can we quit today?
what do supporters prove?
What do you mean by "He'll make a fine President... He's going to do great and he's got the supporters to prove it." That only means he has people who think he will do well. Can't really say until he is in office and we see what he does. Unless you think all these people can predict the future.
Yes. I see so many Obama supporters like this.
nm
You mean his supporters in Hawaii
I will be satisfied when the supreme court decides whether or not the certificate is legitimate. Having Hawaii legally seal this only raises suspicion.

Show me the proof that there was an official "Office of the President Elect" in the past. Never was! This was created by Obama. There has always been a transition team, but never a made up office. Even Clinton was not this arrogant.

Since you didn't like Fox news, here are some other links.

http://www.newemergencypreparedness.com/office-of-the-president-elect/

http://186-kps.com/blog/2008/11/07/obama-ego-the-office-of-president-elect-wtf/

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_president_elect_/2008/11/10/149643.html

I could post many more sites but it doesn't matter because if it goes against the O you just won't believe it no matter how true it is.
You got that right. Describing supporters of
nm
So you are taking up for the thugs
who are keeping the rescuers from help.  You are mentally deranged....very mentally deranged.
doing taking tempature???
I get it now. You figure if you spout enough of your illiteracy on the Liberal board, you will dumb us down to your level.
Taking a survey...
Anyone have any thoughts on Romney being Mormon, will it hurt, help, doesn't matter....Did he convert to Mormonism; I don't remember his father being a Mormon.
Taking this response
x
I'm taking this to the top to enlist
nm
THis is not about taking anything away from kids...they
still have access to birth control...health departments, planned parenthood, clinics, any number of places. It is common knowledge. You hear about it on television on a daily basis, and television, movies, and the internet are where most kids get their information. And frankly, listen to it much more closely than to their parents. Throwing more federal money into any kind of sex ed and/or abstinence programs to me is a waste of money. That was the original question, did I think federal funds should be used for sex ed and abstinence programs.

No, in this culture we live in today, to remove contraception would be idiotic. Sex has been reduced to "expression," having one partner for life has disappeared, multiple partners are fine, yada yada...in that kind of culture to remove birth control would be nuts. Think what the abortion rate would be if that was done...good grief.

By education and programs that doesn't mean dispensing actual birth control. At many schools kids can get condoms. Nearly every health department in the country will dispense birth control and any planned parenthood place will, and that is not going to change.

If you want to reach kids, put those programs on the internet or introduce that kind of information to the shows the kids watch all the time. If you want the information to get to them, that is where it should be covered.
Thank you for taking the time to lay it all out
They will immediately go to Palin flaming because that's all they have. They can never refute any proof made on this board because they can't find any to refute with. Instead, they keep going round and round with the only thing they can remember from TV, Palin this, Palin that.

You don't see the republicans putting down Biden because they are decent people, unlike the dems on this board who refuse to see. AND, the dems on this board know that Biden LOVES McCain and they know in their hearts Biden can't stand Obama; he already said so.
God isn't the problem....taking God out of our
=
fabulous? When he is taking away a better one?
Letting Bush's tax cuts expire? Have you done the math?
profit taking
The rules have not changed yet and the hedge funds are still running loose, betting ups, betting downs. Everything they were doing to get us into this mess is still going on and still legal. Leverage is still high.
Taking money out
is actually a good idea, since there has been talk of bank runs under the current situation THAT IS NOW HAPPENING UNDER GEORGE W. BUSH.
For me, taking time every now and then
to look back and reflect on what we come from, where we're at, how far we've come and how far we have yet to go is a good thing. An Abe-Lincoln themed inauguration seems to be as appropriate of an occasion as any. I cannot pretend to understand how it feels to have the pain of slave ancestors' stories dragged up and thrust in my face, but I can speak to pain of a different sort.

The sight of hordes of GWTW southern belles all bedecked en masse in pools of pastel puke conjures up the shame I inherited from my own white ancestors. As a child, I felt plenty of it growing up in a southern metropolis in the 50s where cotton was still king and the vestiges of plantation life were still palpable and, at times, visceral. As a child, I lived in a wealthy community where some household "help" still stayed in "servants' quarters" behind the main residence (gag me). These were the days of segregation and separate but unequal when and the "N" word was still socially acceptable.

Enter MLK and the revolution of the 60s and 70s that turned our country up-side-down, thank you Jesus. The progress has been slow but steady since then, but the fact that I can still feel the stinging shame of where I came from and that you can still feel such outrage over a historical parade lets us both know that we have not yet reached the Promised Land.

When I watch the Azalea Trail Maids next Tuesday, they will not be marching toward me. They do not have the power to bring back the past and slap me in the face with it. Every step they take will be one step further away, back into a time we best not forget anytime soon, and I will be reminding myself that they are indeed GONE WITH THE WIND.

PS. I too am hoping for brisk winds that whip right past those pretty pastel pantaloons and chill them straight to the bone.
I appreciate you taking time out....(sm)

to respond to my post in such a reasonable and adult manner.  Keep up the good work!  You must be so proud.


Government is taking over
everything and they aren't even smart enough to run the government let alone every business in the US.  I just cannot believe you Obamabotics find this okay.  This is total government control going on here!!!!  This is scary crap!
Thank you for taking the time
I appreciate your reasonable and well-composed argument. I do see how recent actions by this administration could be construed as a power grab, but what actions do think they should have taken instead?

Regarding the private sector argument, if a company accepts federal funding to bail them out of a financial crisis, are they still truly a private company, at least until the money is paid back? I do not agree with all the actions of this administration with respect to the financial crisis, but I do think they had to demonstrate that there are strings attached to receiving taxpayer money. (I may not agree with how they choose to about demonstrating that, however.)
So you are taking the word of
a guy who others consider a little off, Jolie's father? Not a good selection. Can you do better?
Even Supporters Doubt President
Even Supporters Doubt President as Issues Pile Up




Published: November 26, 2005

NY TImes

 


COLUMBUS, Ohio, Nov. 22 - Leesa Martin never considered President Bush a great leader, but she voted for him a year ago because she admired how he handled the terrorist attacks of 2001.



 
Selena Smith, an advertising agency director in Atlanta. The war is more important to me now. What’s the plan? Give us something to hang our teeth on, she said.

 
Kevin Fitzsimons for The New York Times

I don’t know if it’s any one thing as much as it is everything. It’s kind of snowballed, said Leesa Martin, a market researcher in Columbus, Ohio.

Then came the past summer, when the death toll from the war in Iraq hit this state particularly hard: 16 marines from the same battalion killed in one week. She thought the federal government should have acted faster to help after Hurricane Katrina. She was baffled by the president's nomination of Harriet E. Miers, a woman she considered unqualified for the Supreme Court, and disappointed when he did not nominate another woman after Ms. Miers withdrew.

And she remains unsettled by questions about whether the White House leaked the name of a C.I.A. agent whose husband had accused the president of misleading the country about the intelligence that led to the war.

I don't know if it's any one thing as much as it is everything, said Ms. Martin, 49, eating lunch at the North Market, on the edge of downtown Columbus. It's kind of snowballed.

Her concerns were echoed in more than 75 interviews here and across the country this week, helping to explain the slide in the president's approval and trustworthiness ratings in recent polls.

Many people who voted for Mr. Bush a year ago had trouble pinning their current discontent on any one thing. Many mentioned the hurricane and the indictment of a top aide to Vice President Dick Cheney, which some said raised doubts about the president's candor and his judgment. But there was a sense that something had veered off course in the last few months, and the war was the one constant. Over and over, even some of Mr. Bush's supporters raised comparisons with Vietnam.

We keep hearing about suicide bombers and casualties and never hear about any progress being made, said Dave Panici, 45, a railroad conductor from Bradley, Ill. I don't see an end to it; it just seems relentless. I feel like our country is just staying afloat, just treading water instead of swimming toward somewhere.

Mr. Panici voted for President Bush in 2004, calling it a vote for security. Now that a year has passed, I haven't seen any improvement in Iraq, he said. I don't feel that the world is a safer place.

A USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll in mid-November found that 37 percent of Americans approved of Mr. Bush, the lowest approval rating the poll had recorded in his presidency. That was down from 55 percent a year ago and from a high of 90 percent shortly after Sept. 11, 2001.

An Associated Press/Ipsos poll earlier in the month found the same 37 percent approval rating and recorded the president's lowest levels regarding integrity and honesty: 42 percent of Americans found him honest, compared with 53 percent at the beginning of this year.

Several of those interviewed said that in the last year they had come to believe that Mr. Bush had not been fully honest about the intelligence that led to the war, which he said showed solid evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

I think people put their faith in Bush, hoping he would do the right thing, said Stacey Rosen, 38, a stay-at-home mother in Boca Raton, Fla., who said she voted for Mr. Bush but was totally disappointed in him now. Everybody cannot believe that there hasn't been one shred of evidence of W.M.D. I think it goes to show how they tell us what they want to tell us.

Mark Briggs, who works for Nationwide Insurance here, said he did not want to believe that the president manipulated intelligence leading the country into war, but believed that, at least, Mr. Bush had misread it.

Still, however much he may disagree with Mr. Bush's policies, Mr. Briggs said, he admires the president for standing by what he says.

There is the notion of leadership and sticking with the plan, which I believe in, he said. George Bush is clear and consistent. He made a tough decision to go to war - and others voted for it, too. And I think he's right: those people may be trying to rewrite history.

Kacey Wilson, 32, eating lunch with Ms. Martin, said she, too, had concerns about the death toll from the war, but she felt that Mr. Bush spoke the truth, even if it might not be what the country wanted to hear. I like his cut-and-dry, take-no-prisoners style, Ms. Wilson said. I think people are used to more spinning.

Others, though, saw arrogance in that approach.

We need to not be so stubborn, said Vicky Polka, 58, a retired school principal in Statesboro, Ga., who voted for Mr. Bush and described her support for him as waning. Something's not going right here. We need to resolve this. I hate to say it, but I think Iraq is going the way of Vietnam.

Few people said they were following the leak scandal, which led to the indictment of I. Lewis Libby Jr., Mr. Cheney's former aide. Some who could cite main characters and events dismissed it as little more than political theater. Even fewer said they had paid attention to other scandals preoccupying Washington: the indictment of Representative Tom DeLay, the powerful Texas Republican, and the guilty plea by his former spokesman.

But several people said that the leak scandal had left them with the sense that the president was not leveling with the public about his involvement

 

He has to give us more information, said Phil Niemie, 51, an elementary school principal eating lunch with his family in Columbus. The longer it goes without closure, it begins to trigger those Nixon Watergate years. I felt the same way with Clinton.

 

Progress has been made. The Iraqis have a constitution. They’re actually creating their own country, said Rich Canary, an information technology specialist, Columbus, Ohio.

 
He has to give us more information. The longer it goes without closure, it begins to trigger those Nixon Watergate years, said Phil Niemie, an elementary school principal in Columbus, Ohio.

But for Mr. Niemie, who voted for Mr. Bush, and others, the leak scandal raised the biggest doubts about Vice President Cheney.

A lot of problems tie back to some of Cheney's shenanigans, Ms. Martin said. It just seems like he could have done better for vice president the second time around.

In Atlanta, Selena Smith, a director at an advertising agency, echoed others when she said she thought too much time had already been spent on the investigation.

The war is more important to me now, said Ms. Smith, 46. What's the plan? Give us something to hang our teeth on. What's really top of mind for me is how many people are getting killed across the creek, and how are we going to get them home?

Here in Ohio, the most hotly contested state in the 2004 election, the heavy toll on a local Marine battalion had played out on television and in newspapers throughout the summer's end, and the majority of two dozen people interviewed here said they wanted to see the troops come home.

Some, though, faulted Americans as having short attention spans.

Anything that takes more than a couple of months, we get bored with, said Rich Canary, 35, an information technology specialist here. Progress has been made. The Iraqis have a constitution. They're actually creating their own country. When you hear the soldiers talk, they feel what they're doing is important.

And there was much division about how to end the war. Some military families said it was important to finish the task the troops had begun; others said they resented accusations of being unpatriotic when they criticized the war. Some who said their approval of the president had not wavered nevertheless argued for a quick end to the war, while some of Mr. Bush's strongest critics said it would destabilize Iraq to withdraw the troops anytime soon.

Too many people would get hurt, said Laurence Melia, 28, a salesman from Newton, Mass., who campaigned against President Bush last year. There has to be a last foot on the ground in the end, and there might be more problems if we run away too fast.

In Houston, Geoff Van Hoeven, an accountant, said he thought the war in Iraq had aggravated the terrorist threat by creating a breeding ground for Al Qaeda. Still, Mr. Van Hoeven said a quick withdrawal was not possible, because America's going to be perceived as extremely weak and unreliable coming in, and when the going gets rough, they pull out.

Even those who voted against Mr. Bush a year ago saw little satisfaction in his woes.

Part of me enjoys watching him squirm, said Shirley Tobias, 46, sitting with a colleague from Netscape at a coffee shop in Grandview, a suburb of Columbus. But he's squirming on our behalf. We're all in this together.

HRC supporters downright nasty
Watched some of the DNC hearing (or whatever it was called).  I was utterly disgusted with the supporters of HRC.  She said she wanted the delegates seated.  Well they are going to be seated!  So what's the problem now?  Oh - I get it, they want everything and they want it their way or no way.  They just want to be placed in the position whether or not they got more votes.  They are not playing fair.  First they want the delegates seated - they are.  They want their votes to count - they are.  But because HRC does not get every single vote and Barack with none they are going to keep pushin it.  You want to talk about just looking like a bunch of spoiled losers that is surely what they are.  And what are they screaming about.  As some lady said "a black man came and took it away from HRC".  Well boo hoo.  You want to talk about downright biggots - there you go!  First you have the comments about Jesse Jackson by Billy boy, then you've got the "I'll win because white working people will vote for me and not a black man" statement by HRC.  I'm tellin ya, they are really gearing up for a racial war.  She lost, fair and square.  End of discussion!  The media if anything always gave her the benefit of the doubt.  Gave her the easy questions at the debate, and certainly favored her, but now its just obvious she is a spoiled sport and sore loser.  Well for all the ones who say they'll never vote for a black man, there are a hundred more who will not vote for that woman.  Sure we'll one day vote in a woman in the white house but not her!  I know there were many other qualified women who should have run.  Why didn't they?  Seems like the Clintons once again pulled "something funny" so she would be placed in there.  Anyway...that's my rant for the evening.  She just disgusts me and a lot of people I know and we are all anxious for her to just go home.  Sure, go ahead, take it to the convention, but she better be prepared for the outcome.  She lost, fair and square.  More people and more delegates voted for Obama.  Someone needs to set her figures straight.  I guess if you don't count a bunch of states that Obama won then she can say she won, but I know she'd have a fit if Obama left out some of the states she won and said "See I won, we just won't count New York, Ohio and Calfornia (or any other combination of states she won).  You want to talk about disenfranchizing people.  She's just coming right out and saying "oh this states is important because I won so we have to count their votes, but this state over here that Obama won in, those people are not important, their votes don't count".  Like I've said before....HRC go back to living under that rock you crawled out from.  We're sick of you.
Problem is Obama supporters just do not want to
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It was ok for hillary supporters in the millions...
wasn't it? Hillary played it again when she gave the nomination to Obama. Oh my, it bites on the other side doesn't it??
Obama supporters are organizing

While you guys are here on this page engaging it "silly season semantics", we Obama supporters are working our plan to ensure that we get this wonderful man of the people in office.  Has Senator McCain given his supporters any ideas on what they can do to try to help put him in office?  Most of the 90,000+ people at the Democratic convention are right now working the plan (not to mention the millions of us who watched from home!)  You guys need to wake up and give your support to someone who will work for you rather than against you in Washington. 


The only thing wrong with being wrong is stubbornly clinging to your wrongness.  You probably voted for our current president 4 and 8 years ago.  The deplorable condition that our nation has fallen into over the course of the last 8 years makes me know I must do everything possible to avoid 4 more.  I, and millions like me, are so happy that Senator Obama chose to use his awesome intelligence, skills and experience of working with people to help us help ourselves.  We are an unstoppable force.  Better get on board, folks. 


Obama supporters have nothing to fear
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Absolutely! Obama supporters seem get that now
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McCain and Palin supporters
feel the Obama supporters are making a mistake.  However, we would not say that we deserve the downfall that will happen with Obama in office.  No one deserves that even if you are stupid enough to vote for him!