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I sent a rather generous check to the Red Cross.

Posted By: American Woman on 2005-09-01
In Reply to: This is the time America comes together. - A Real American Woman

How much did you contribute?




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25% need it--and that's being generous. nm

Ah, ever the generous "liberal." However...
you might want to examine your own "views" before calling someone else "jaded." But...sadly...that requires an open mind and I don't believe yours has been open for a very, very long time. Which is really sad. I'm sorry for you...truly.
Pro-life people are very generous
Many pro-life people are involved with politics and volunteer at the crisis pregnancy center. Many open their homes to young pregnant women. I know several who have adopted or fostered special needs children.
Crisis pregnancy centers will help any woman who is pregnant or has a child with material needs. They will give her diapers, clothing, gift cards and find her a dwelling place if necessary.

Attend any pro-life meeting you will meet wonderful people there. It's not just with pregnancy they help with, they also volunteer to help elderly too.
Thanks, that opened and seemed pretty generous to me. n/m
x
Red Cross CEO

After a very quick Google search, I found this, which indicates a salary of "roughly $149,000."  (I personally thought the number would be much higher, but not as high as multi-million bonuses, etc. that we're paying for Wall Street to have.)  And as far as Pelosi, she should ride commercial, just like everyone else, IMHO.


Monday, August 4, 2008



Charity Navigator's 2008 CEO Compensation Study is Complete




Even though some our users have clearly expressed their discontent with the compensation CEOs of their favorite charities receive, Charity Navigator’s 2008 CEO study indicates that the average CEO compensation is roughly $149,000, and represents on average 3.32% of an organization’s overall expenses. While some donors disagree that a nonprofit CEO deserves to earn a six figure salary, we ask that you keep in mind that the charities included in this study are multi-million dollar operations. Leading one of them requires an individual that possesses both an understanding of the issues that are unique to the charity's mission as well as business and management expertise similar to that required of for-profit CEOs.


http://blog.charitynavigator.org/2008/08/charity-navigators-2008-ceo.html


 


Also known as the Cross of Nero sm
We think of it as a peace sign, but its origins are satanic. Nero thought there would be peace only without Christianity and thousands of Christians were killed under his rule. It is funny you posted this. I am reading up on this stuff after watching a religious video by a guy named Dave Hunt. I am trying to research some of the things these Christians are saying about the Society of Jesus and the Vatican.
climb off your cross

this politically correct horsesh*t is a joke - get all self-righteous


I think McCain's goose egg is brown and probably still resides in his flaccid diaper -  go cry about that


I agree with you Big Bad, there is a lot of cross-over (sm)
And we should all have tolerance for each other.  That means tolerance for Christians too. While I agree that having a completely religious discussion may be inappropriate for this board, the times that it is related to the political topic it is appropriate.  I try not to shove my religious beliefs down anyone's throat because I feel like if anything that is going to accomplish the opposite (lol).  But when asked a question I do want to answer with my honest opinion, and when I see another Christian posting something that I don't believe, I want to give my point of view, so that everyone knows that all Christians don't believe the same thing. 
International Red Cross


Red Cross Described 'Torture' at CIA Jails


Secret Report Implies That U.S. Violated International Law







   






















Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, March 16, 2009; Page A01



The International Committee of the Red Cross concluded in a secret report that the Bush administration's treatment of al-Qaeda captives "constituted torture," a finding that strongly implied that CIA interrogation methods violated international law, according to newly published excerpts from the long-concealed 2007 document.



The report, an account alleging physical and psychological brutality inside CIA "black site" prisons, also states that some U.S. practices amounted to "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment." Such maltreatment of detainees is expressly prohibited by the Geneva Conventions.


The findings were based on an investigation by ICRC officials, who were granted exclusive access to the CIA's "high-value" detainees after they were transferred in 2006 to the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The 14 detainees, who had been kept in isolation in CIA prisons overseas, gave remarkably uniform accounts of abuse that included beatings, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures and, in some cases, waterboarding, or simulating drowning.


At least five copies of the report were shared with the CIA and top White House officials in 2007 but barred from public release by ICRC guidelines intended to preserve the humanitarian group's strict policy of neutrality in conflicts. A copy of the report was obtained by Mark Danner, a journalism professor and author who published extensive excerpts in the April 9 edition of the New York Review of Books, released yesterday. He did not say how he obtained the report.


"The ill-treatment to which they were subjected while held in the CIA program, either singly or in combination, constituted torture," Danner quoted the report as saying.


Many of the details of alleged mistreatment at CIA prisons had been reported previously, but the ICRC report is the most authoritative account and the first to use the word "torture" in a legal context.


The CIA declined to comment. A U.S. official familiar with the report said, "It is important to bear in mind that the report lays out claims made by the terrorists themselves."


Often using the detainee's own words, the report offers a harrowing view of conditions at the secret prisons, where prisoners were told they were being taken "to the verge of death and back," according to one excerpt. During interrogations, the captives were routinely beaten, doused with cold water and slammed head-first into walls. Between sessions, they were stripped of clothing, bombarded with loud music, exposed to cold temperatures, and deprived of sleep and solid food for days on end. Some detainees described being forced to stand for days, with their arms shackled above them, wearing only diapers.



 

"On a daily basis . . . a collar was looped around my neck and then used to slam me against the walls of the interrogation room," the report quotes detainee Tawfiq bin Attash, also known as Walid Muhammad bin Attash, as saying. Later, he said, he was wrapped in a plastic sheet while cold water was "poured onto my body with buckets." He added: "I would be wrapped inside the sheet with cold water for several minutes. Then I would be taken for interrogation."


ICRC officials did not dispute the authenticity of the excerpts, but a spokesman expressed dismay over the leak of the material. "We regret information attributed to the ICRC report was made public in this manner," spokesman Bernard Barrett said.


"The ICRC has been visiting the detainees formerly held by the CIA," he added, "at Guantanamo since 2006. Any concerns or observations the ICRC had when visiting the detainees are part of a confidential dialogue."


President George W. Bush acknowledged the use of coercive interrogation tactics on senior al-Qaeda captives detained by the CIA in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but he insisted that the measures complied with U.S. and international law. Former CIA director Michael V. Hayden confirmed last year that the measures included the use of waterboarding on three captives before 2003.


President Obama outlawed such practices within hours of his inauguration in January. But Obama has expressed reluctance to conduct a legal inquiry into the CIA's policies.



The report gives a graphic account of the treatment of Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein, better known as Abu Zubaida, a Saudi-born Palestinian who was the first alleged senior al-Qaeda operative seized after Sept. 11 -- a characterization of his role that is disputed by his attorneys, who describe him as having a different philosophy of jihad than bin Laden.


Abu Zubaida was severely wounded during a shootout in March 2002 at a safe house he ran in Faisalabad, Pakistan, and survived thanks to CIA-arranged medical care, including multiple surgeries. After he recovered, Abu Zubaida describes being shackled to a chair at the feet and hands for two to three weeks in a cold room with "loud, shouting type music" blaring constantly, according to the ICRC report. He said that he was questioned two to three hours a day and that water was sprayed in his face if he fell asleep.


At some point -- the timing is unclear from the New York Review of Books report -- Abu Zubaida's treatment became harsher. In July 2002, administration lawyers approved more aggressive techniques.


Abu Zubaida said interrogators wrapped a towel around his neck and slammed him into a plywood wall mounted in his cell. He was also repeatedly slapped in the face, he said. After the beatings, he was placed in coffinlike wooden boxes in which he was forced to crouch, with no light and a restricted air supply, he said.


"The stress on my legs held in this position meant my wounds both in my leg and stomach became very painful," he told the ICRC.


After he was removed from a small box, he said, he was strapped to what looked like a hospital bed and waterboarded. "A black cloth was then placed over my face and the interrogators used a mineral bottle to pour water on the cloth so that I could not breathe," Abu Zubaida said.


After breaks to allow him to recover, the waterboarding continued.


"I struggled against the straps, trying to breathe, but it was hopeless," he said. "I though I was going to die."


You have to check and double check every single thing they say. They're not capable of telling t
truth about anything.  It's getting very boring and tedious to read their crap.  Why won't they stay on their own board like they tell us to do?
Don't cross a bridge that isn't built yet, if ever
I didn't vote for Obama, but I'm not upset that he won.
That's the average salary, not the Red Cross
That's kind of misleading, since it's the average salary for a non-profit CEO and whereas there are many little ones, the CEOs of the big ones (Red Cross and United Way) do make huge amounts. Takes a lot of nerve for them to ask me for my pittance of a donation!

Mine goes to Salvation Army.

Silver Linings and a Cross of Gold

Why some people love Bush and Israel so much.  


http://harpers.org/rapture-ready-20060718001.html


I've been lurking on the other board (after learning quickly not to post there any more), and they also confirm the end is near.  I can almost understand why some would be so excited about the end of the world after 6 years of Bush.  It almost even looks good to me.   


That teacher also burned a cross into a student's arm.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,369549,00.html
"...go to court AGAINST a Christian who wants to wear a cross"
nm
to see McCain's pictures click on the red cross marks, disregard the 1st...nm
nm
LOL, yes, be sure to check with gt before you believe anything. She knows it all.
x
I will check
I honestly dont remember..I will check the history in my computer and see if I can find it..It could have been on Huffington or Crooks and Liars, one of the news sites I frequent..but it was from a newspaper, an article they had posted on their site..I will look this weekend.  Dont jump at me..I do not want the president of the USA to be drinking again..I think if it is true it is sad and tragic for him both personally and professionally.
check this out
Check out http://groups.msn/home.  They have lots of political groups, without censorship!
Check this out PK.sm
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/PressRelease_2Jul2006.html
Thank you VERY much! I shall check it out.
I commend you for the volunteer work also. It might drive me nuts to know more about the dirt in politics than what is already obvious...

thanks again :-)
check out wnd.com
xxx
check your
facts instead of making things up.  I do not mean the National Enquirer or Faux News. Karl Rove's people are advising McCain.  That is why you see the silliness of celebrity ads and ads about people when Obama was 8 years old.  At first, he tried to run on his own charisma and could get no attention -- all was focused on the charismatic young man from Chicago.  Rove's people came in and started the negative ads.  And McCain went right along with them. . ..
Thanks. I will check it out :) nm
nm
would you check it for me --

its seems to excite you.  Me, not so much.


 


check this out

You can see plenty on michaesavage.com. I tried to copy/paste it, but this is all that transferred.


Piggy pols in hog heaven with pork-packed pact (New York Post) Congressional deal-brokers slopped a mess of pork into the $700 billion rescue bill passed by the Senate last night - including a tax break for makers of kids' wooden arrows ... Top 10 tax sweeteners in the bailout bill (Taxpayers for Common Sense) The "Transportation fringe benefit to bicycle commuters" allows employers to provide a benefit for costs associated with bicycle commuting ...


Check this out
Awhile back my husband and I were picking up rocks off our property.  I said, "I'm so bone tired I can't hit another dick!"  Of course I meant to say that "I can't hit another lick."  My husband is still laughing.  So..........was I bone tired or not?  Certainly I knew what I meant to say but it didn't just come out just right.
You check it out..............sm
This same blog post can be found all over the internet, so it is not from just "some obscure web page." Look for yourself.

The only hole around here is going to be the one this whole nation finds itself in if Obama is elected.
you can check these, there are several others
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=h57H_7i3GLE&feature=related
Check this out and see what you think...

This is a video of T. Boone Pickens on the daily show.  If you don't like Jon Stewart, don't let that discourage you from checking this out.  Pickens is talking about the energy plan he has been promoting.


go to:   http://www.thedailyshow.com/


In the middle of the page is the video section.  Go under that to the "coming up next" box and pick T. Boone Pickens.


Sorry about the round about directions, but I couldn't find the interview anywhere else.


Maybe you should check yours.
November 5, Israeal kills 6 in raid. Israel has continued its crippling blockade and never complied with the original condition of the truce that the blockade be lifted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians


What I want to know is, how is this check
is supposed to be the tax cut he promised to 95% of the taxpayers. Now, that does not mean you have to pay INCOME taxes to get an income tax break, that would be if you pay any kind of taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc. If the government just sends me a check for $1000, this is my tax CUT, right? Now, I am supposed to take this money and spend it to stimulate the economy, right? Well, the check everyone got last year, mine and DHs went straight to the IRS, we never saw it. I expect the same thing to happen with this new one and I will still be paying the same tax rate as ever, until it is increased again. Where is my tax CUT? How many other *middle-income* folks do you think had this same situation?
BUT you won't get it in a check.
It's a payroll tax cut. It will show up in your pay. How much more can you do with $13 a week. That's what it comes out to for this year.
Check this out....(sm)

It's an older article, but the facts remain the same.


France's model healthcare system





MANY advocates of a universal healthcare system in the United States look to Canada for their model. While the Canadian healthcare system has much to recommend it, there's another model that has been too long neglected. That is the healthcare system in France.


Although the French system faces many challenges, the World Health Organization rated it the best in the world in 2001 because of its universal coverage, responsive healthcare providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country's population. The United States ranked 37.


The French system is also not inexpensive. At $3,500 per capita it is one of the most costly in Europe, yet that is still far less than the $6,100 per person in the United States.


An understanding of how France came to its healthcare system would be instructive in any renewed debate in the United States.


That's because the French share Americans' distaste for restrictions on patient choice and they insist on autonomous private practitioners rather than a British-style national health service, which the French dismiss as "socialized medicine." Virtually all physicians in France participate in the nation's public health insurance, Sécurité Sociale.


Their freedoms of diagnosis and therapy are protected in ways that would make their managed-care-controlled US counterparts envious. However, the average American physician earns more than five times the average US wage while the average French physician makes only about two times the average earnings of his or her compatriots. But the lower income of French physicians is allayed by two factors. Practice liability is greatly diminished by a tort-averse legal system, and medical schools, although extremely competitive to enter, are tuition-free. Thus, French physicians enter their careers with little if any debt and pay much lower malpractice insurance premiums.


Nor do France's doctors face the high nonmedical personnel payroll expenses that burden American physicians. Sécurité Sociale has created a standardized and speedy system for physician billing and patient reimbursement using electronic funds.


It's not uncommon to visit a French medical office and see no nonmedical personnel. What a concept. No back office army of billing specialists who do daily battle with insurers' arcane and constantly changing rules of payment.


Moreover, in contrast to Canada and Britain, there are no waiting lists for elective procedures and patients need not seek pre-authorizations. In other words, like in the United States, "rationing" is not a word that leaves the lips of hopeful politicians. How might the French case inform the US debate over healthcare reform?


National health insurance in France stands upon two grand historical bargains -- the first with doctors and a second with insurers.


Doctors only agreed to participate in compulsory health insurance if the law protected a patient's choice of practitioner and guaranteed physicians' control over medical decision-making. Given their current frustrations, America's doctors might finally be convinced to throw their support behind universal health insurance if it protected their professional judgment and created a sane system of billing and reimbursement.


French legislators also overcame insurance industry resistance by permitting the nation's already existing insurers to administer its new healthcare funds. Private health insurers are also central to the system as supplemental insurers who cover patient expenses that are not paid for by Sécurité Sociale. Indeed, nearly 90 percent of the French population possesses such coverage, making France home to a booming private health insurance market.


The French system strongly discourages the kind of experience rating that occurs in the United States, making it more difficult for insurers to deny coverage for preexisting conditions or to those who are not in good health. In fact, in France, the sicker you are, the more coverage, care, and treatment you get. Would American insurance companies cut a comparable deal?


Like all healthcare systems, the French confront ongoing problems. Today French reformers' number one priority is to move health insurance financing away from payroll and wage levies because they hamper employers' willingness to hire. Instead, France is turning toward broad taxes on earned and unearned income alike to pay for healthcare.


American advocates of mandates on employers to provide health insurance should take note. The link between employment and health security is a historical artifact whose disadvantages now far outweigh its advantages. Economists estimate that between 25 and 45 percent of the US labor force is now job-locked. That is, employees make career decisions based on their need to maintain affordable health coverage or avoid exclusion based on a preexisting condition.


Perhaps it's time for us to take a closer look at French ideas about healthcare reform. They could become an import far less "foreign" and "unfriendly" than many here might initially imagine.


Paul V. Dutton is associate professor of history at Northern Arizona University and author of "Differential Diagnoses: A Comparative History of Health Care Problems and Solutions in the United States and France," which will be published in September. "


Check this out....(sm)

It's an older article, but the facts remain the same.


France's model healthcare system





MANY advocates of a universal healthcare system in the United States look to Canada for their model. While the Canadian healthcare system has much to recommend it, there's another model that has been too long neglected. That is the healthcare system in France.


Although the French system faces many challenges, the World Health Organization rated it the best in the world in 2001 because of its universal coverage, responsive healthcare providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country's population. The United States ranked 37.


The French system is also not inexpensive. At $3,500 per capita it is one of the most costly in Europe, yet that is still far less than the $6,100 per person in the United States.


An understanding of how France came to its healthcare system would be instructive in any renewed debate in the United States.


That's because the French share Americans' distaste for restrictions on patient choice and they insist on autonomous private practitioners rather than a British-style national health service, which the French dismiss as "socialized medicine." Virtually all physicians in France participate in the nation's public health insurance, Sécurité Sociale.


Their freedoms of diagnosis and therapy are protected in ways that would make their managed-care-controlled US counterparts envious. However, the average American physician earns more than five times the average US wage while the average French physician makes only about two times the average earnings of his or her compatriots. But the lower income of French physicians is allayed by two factors. Practice liability is greatly diminished by a tort-averse legal system, and medical schools, although extremely competitive to enter, are tuition-free. Thus, French physicians enter their careers with little if any debt and pay much lower malpractice insurance premiums.


Nor do France's doctors face the high nonmedical personnel payroll expenses that burden American physicians. Sécurité Sociale has created a standardized and speedy system for physician billing and patient reimbursement using electronic funds.


It's not uncommon to visit a French medical office and see no nonmedical personnel. What a concept. No back office army of billing specialists who do daily battle with insurers' arcane and constantly changing rules of payment.


Moreover, in contrast to Canada and Britain, there are no waiting lists for elective procedures and patients need not seek pre-authorizations. In other words, like in the United States, "rationing" is not a word that leaves the lips of hopeful politicians. How might the French case inform the US debate over healthcare reform?


National health insurance in France stands upon two grand historical bargains -- the first with doctors and a second with insurers.


Doctors only agreed to participate in compulsory health insurance if the law protected a patient's choice of practitioner and guaranteed physicians' control over medical decision-making. Given their current frustrations, America's doctors might finally be convinced to throw their support behind universal health insurance if it protected their professional judgment and created a sane system of billing and reimbursement.


French legislators also overcame insurance industry resistance by permitting the nation's already existing insurers to administer its new healthcare funds. Private health insurers are also central to the system as supplemental insurers who cover patient expenses that are not paid for by Sécurité Sociale. Indeed, nearly 90 percent of the French population possesses such coverage, making France home to a booming private health insurance market.


The French system strongly discourages the kind of experience rating that occurs in the United States, making it more difficult for insurers to deny coverage for preexisting conditions or to those who are not in good health. In fact, in France, the sicker you are, the more coverage, care, and treatment you get. Would American insurance companies cut a comparable deal?


Like all healthcare systems, the French confront ongoing problems. Today French reformers' number one priority is to move health insurance financing away from payroll and wage levies because they hamper employers' willingness to hire. Instead, France is turning toward broad taxes on earned and unearned income alike to pay for healthcare.


American advocates of mandates on employers to provide health insurance should take note. The link between employment and health security is a historical artifact whose disadvantages now far outweigh its advantages. Economists estimate that between 25 and 45 percent of the US labor force is now job-locked. That is, employees make career decisions based on their need to maintain affordable health coverage or avoid exclusion based on a preexisting condition.


Perhaps it's time for us to take a closer look at French ideas about healthcare reform. They could become an import far less "foreign" and "unfriendly" than many here might initially imagine.


Paul V. Dutton is associate professor of history at Northern Arizona University and author of "Differential Diagnoses: A Comparative History of Health Care Problems and Solutions in the United States and France," which will be published in September. "


Check this out....(sm)

Watch this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4EWB0Wc4wQ


Then watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHHH3VBjSws&feature=related


And then watch this video: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29506332#29506332


 


Check this out.............. sm

Since when does the POTUS bow to a foreign potentate?  This man really has no clue............... Or does he?  Be sure to read the article as well. 






 


You might want to check again.
It might have been JTBB and me that you saw.
tnx will have to check those out.
Pretty hooked right now on 590klbj.com out of austin 5:30 a.m. to 10, one man always the voice of reason standing between the retired ex-cop and the I would swear has a gray ponytail liberal, but I notice even in the last couple of years he coming over to the dark side more and more. Ed and Sgt. Sam can flat get into it sometimes. I am actually listening to radio much more than TV, like hearing what the guy on the street has to say and you just don't get much of that on TV.
check article above
Well, we might just get an investigation into the Downing Street Memos after all and then when it is proven that Bush contrived this war and lied for this war, you can post here that yes Bush is a liar.  I refer you to the above post about the Downing Street Memos above.  Interesting article.  States finally a republican is wanting an investigation into the Downing Street Memos, as so far it has only been democrats asking for an investigation.
You may want to check your sources.

Actually this may be more accurate:


Katrina Victims Welcomed in Massachusetts


Massachusetts to take about 2,500 refugees from hurricane” – The Associated Press


“Massachusetts will take in about 2,500 Hurricane Katrina refugees in coming days, sheltering them on Cape Cod for up to two months and likely resettling some permanently in the Bay State, Gov. Mitt Romney said Sunday.


Romney said federal emergency officials told him Sunday to prepare for the evacuees, who will arrive in two to three days, and will be temporarily housed at Camp Edwards on Otis Air National Guard Base on Cape Cod.


Otis has many amenities to accommodate the large numbers, including beds, a school, medical facilities, a gymnasium and a movie theater, he said.”


Check out this site
http://www.filmstripinternational.com/index.php?asshole
Reality check
You just cannot stay off this board can you?  Don't you get it?  We don't want to debate with you.  We are just as set in our beliefs as you are in yours.  No one here is interested in anything you have to say, so please, get a life or at least stay on your own board.
For Reality Check. sm
I think my post did sound a little hateful.  I am sure you are a very nice person.  You see, this is a country divided, and I am certain I am not the only one on this board, to feel that GWB has had a lot to do with that.  Like I said, I am sure you are a nice person.  However, this is a country divided, nothing will make me change my mind about this administration.  I fear for either party that gets in next time, if it is a democrat, they cannot hardly get ahead because of the blunders made by the current administration.  In a nutshell, I sincerely feel like this country has never been more divided, and perhaps that is why the moderators decided to split the two boards to begin with.  Post all you want, you will get no more nasty responses for me.  I however will feel at liberty to post jokes when I feel like it.  I lurk on the conservative board, but do not post.  There are many right-winged jokes and cartoons over there and I do not post my opinion - because that is their board.
Good one! Check this out
http://mkanejeeves.com/?p=213

A cell of miscreants in Frostbite Falls, Minnesota at the college Whattsamatta U., led by two shadowy figures nicknamed *Moose and Squirrel.* LOL

Anything to get those poll numbers out of the toilet...oh, right,I forgot, they don't pay attention to those.
They don't have a blank check
They are a U.S. ally and we support them. Lebanon is not an ally and a blatantly terrorist state. Of course we're going to side with Israel, but no we are not giving them a blank check thus the push of a cease fire.
You've got to check this out
if you haven't already. Go, Paul! http://-paulhipp-.cf.hufingtonpost.com/SUBIRAQIAN%30HOMESICK%20BLUES%204.htm or http://www.myspace.com/paulhipp for other great videos.
Check my posts
I am a pro-choicer and I believe I am allowed to post where ever I please, as long as I am respectful.
And while they are at it they should check out Obama's...
minister and mentor's views on Jews...and Jessie Jackson's views on Jews (hymietown) and Obama's mentor's hero (Louis Farrakhan) views on Jews...("Hitler was a great man" is one of his more memorable quotes). The fact that his middle name is Hussein is the LEAST of my concerns about Barack Obama.
Check your sources
Get your facts straight. Obama was sworn in using a bible. It was another congressman, Keith Ellison, who was sworn in using the Koran.
You can also check out NPR on the radio....
conservative they ARE NOT.