About Face: Soldiers Call for Iraq Withdrawal
Posted By: Democrat on 2006-12-18
In Reply to:
For the first time since Vietnam, an organized, robust movement of active-duty US military personnel has publicly surfaced to oppose a war in which they are serving. Those involved plan to petition Congress to withdraw American troops from Iraq. (Note: A complete version of this report will appear Thursday in the print and online editions of The Nation.)
After appearing only seven weeks ago on the Internet, the Appeal for Redress, brainchild of 29-year-old Navy seaman Jonathan Hutto, has already been signed by nearly 1,000 US soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen, including dozens of officers--most of whom are on active duty. Not since 1969, when some 1,300 active-duty military personnel signed an open letter in the New York Times opposing the war in Vietnam, has there been such a dramatic barometer of rising military dissent.
Interviews with two dozen signers of the Appeal reveal a mix of motives for opposing the war: ideological, practical, strategic and moral. But all those interviewed agree that it is time to start withdrawing the troops. Coming from an all-volunteer military, the Appeal was called unprecedented by Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.
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Yet many soldiers also call the war immoral and
.
Soldiers flee to Canada to avoid Iraq duty
Soldiers flee to Canada to avoid Iraq duty
Duncan Campbell
Tuesday March 28, 2006
Guardian Hundreds of deserters from the US armed forces have crossed into Canada and are now seeking political refugee status there, arguing that violations of the rules of war in Iraq by the US entitle them to asylum.
A decision on a test case involving two US servicemen is due shortly and is being watched with interest by fellow servicemen on both sides of the border. At least 20 others have already applied for asylum and there are an estimated 400 in Canada out of more than 9,000 who have deserted since the conflict started in 2003.
Ryan Johnson, 22, from near Fresno in California, was due to be deployed with his unit to Iraq in January last year but crossed the Canadian border in June and is seeking asylum. I had spoken to many soldiers who had been in Iraq and who told me about innocent civilians being killed and about bombing civilian neighbourhoods, he told the Guardian.
It's been really great since I've been here. Generally, people have been really hospitable and understanding, although there have been a few who have been for the war. He is now unable to return to the US. I don't have a problem with that. I'm in Canada and that's that.
Mr Johnson said it was unclear exactly how many US soldiers were in Canada but he thought 400 was a realistic figure. He had been on speaking tours across the country as part of a war resisters' movement and had come across other servicemen living underground.
Jeffry House, a Toronto lawyer who represents many of the men, said that an increasing number were seeking asylum. There are a fair number without status and a fair number on student visas, he said, and under UN guidelines on refugee status they were entitled to seek asylum.
The first test cases involve Jeremy Hinzman, 26, who deserted from the 82 Airborne Division and Brandon Hughey from the 1st Cavalry Division. A decision on their applications is due within the next few weeks. If they are turned down the case will be taken to the federal appeal court and the Canadian supreme court, according to Mr House, a process that would last into next year at least.
All deserters, past and present, are placed on an FBI wanted list. Earlier this month, Allen Abney, 56, who deserted from the US marines 38 years ago during the Vietnam war, was arrested as he crossed into the US, a journey he had taken many times before without problem. He was held in a military jail in California for a few days, then discharged.
They have resuscitated long-dormant warrants, said Mr House. I know 15 people personally who have crossed 10 or more times without problems and then all of a sudden they are arresting people. It seems like it would be connected to Iraq.
Lee Zaslofsky, 61, the coordinator of the War Resisters' Support Campaign in Toronto, said that he was impressed by the young men who were seeking asylum. Some have been to Iraq and others have heard what goes on there, he said. Mainly, what they discuss is being asked to do things they consider repugnant. Most are quite patriotic ... Many say they feel tricked by the military.
During the Vietnam war between 50,000 and 60,000 Americans crossed the border to avoid serving.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1740986,00.html
this message is misleading - she is not for killing innocent soldiers and civilians in Iraq
You lumped killing innocent wildlife and killing soldiers and civilians in Iraq into the same line. She is not for killing innocent solderies and civilians in Iraq.
As distasteful as it is killing wildlife she is definitely not for the other. That is totally absurb.
Show me the proof where she said she is for killing innocent soldiers and civilians in Iraq.
You may hate her but making up totally false statement is outrageous and why once again I see the "political rape" of Sarah Palin. If you can show me proof I take back this last paragraph and eat my words, but I need proof. Saying something like that is like saying because Obama is a Muslim he is for killing all american if they don't convert to the muslim faith. Plain idiocracy.
How can she be ready to face our nation's problems when she won't even face any questions on h
she is just a big gimmick to get the women voters that were bitter about Hillary's loss.
She's supposed to be this tough pitbull but she won't campaign out on her own or is allowed to talk to the press ?!?! More like a chicken if you ask me than a pitbull.
Abiding with the moratorium....I think if we all worked face-to-face (sm)
We could all talk about our differences as friends. Some we would get along with and others not but we could talk about all of it respectfully with each other. Having the anonymity makes us all probably take things up a notch or two higher than we would in person, but I suspect we would all be making the same points, just in person. That said, with election day being tomorrow, I hope that all of us, no matter who is elected, will make the best of the situation and try to be kind to our fellow human beings regardless of race or religion.. Good night and Amen...lol 
as part of a phased withdrawal, discussed with and
There is a specified end sight as posted on O's website for those who are interested in fact over fiction. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/#phased-withdrawal
Excuse me. Clearly, the women, children, babies and elders in that video posed no immediate threat to US troops there. No need for pudit expert analysis on that one.
Obama actually does differ on McCain in his Afghanistan plan, especially when it comes to more precise targeting (like OBL, to name one instance) and measures that would protect and spare civilian populations from blanket bombing of entire villages to "flush out" a half dozen "known" Taliban.
Diplomacy has not been tried with Taliban or any other theocratic leadership in view of the "we don't negotiate with terrorist" W dogma...that is, of course, until recently when he decided to flip to the O side of diplomatic policy and explore the idea of establishing an American "Interests" Section in Tehran.
You cannot possibly pretend to know what sort of progress can be made under leadership guided by a president who has the kind of insight O has into Islamic cultures until those initiatives are explored. What is apparent from that video is that ANY and ALL efforts should be undertaken to succeed in disarming terrorist arsenals AND appeal and that measures should be undertaken to prevent the slaughter of women, children, babies and old men.
O has very clearly articulated his approach and policies on diplomacy on his website, which have been available since the day he launched his campaign. Show me the McCain plan for diplomacy. Don't just claim he "knows what he is doing" because he knows his way around a battlefield. Show me the plan. I will not address the rest of the post because it reflects all that tired out politics of fear warmongering rhetoric that 80% of the nation has clearly indicated it no longer buys into.
United Methodist Church Calls For Withdrawal ...sm
Sweet Victory: United Methodist Church Calls For Withdrawal
It's one thing when former high-ranking members of your own Administration come out against your war. It's another thing when two-thirds of the country calls the invasion and occupation a mistake. It's really something when your own church issues a statement urging you to pull out the troops now.
Last week, the United Methodist Church Board of Church and Society--the social action committee of the church that both President Bush and Vice President Cheney belong to--resoundingly passed a resolution calling for withdrawal with only two 'no' votes and one abstention.
As people of faith, we raise our voice in protest against the tragedy of the unjust war in Iraq, the statement read. Thousands of lives have been lost and hundreds of billions of dollars wasted in a war the United States initiated and should never have fought.... We grieve for all those whose lives have been lost or destroyed in this needless and avoidable tragedy. Military families have suffered undue hardship from prolonged troop rotations in Iraq and loss of loved ones. It is time to bring them home.
The board also issued a strong statement against torture, urging Congress to create an independent, bipartisan commission to investigate detention and interrogation practices at Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan.
It is my hope and prayer that our statement against the war in Iraq will be heard loud and clear by our fellow United Methodists, President Bush and Vice President Cheney, said Jim Winkler, General Secretary of the UMC's Board of Church and Society. Conservative and liberal board members worked together to craft a strong statement calling for the troops to come home and for those responsible for leading us into this disastrous war to be held accountable.
With its bold stands against the Administration, the UMC is fulfilling the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who called for the church to be not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion but a thermostat that transformed the mores of society.
Bush has asserted that he entered Iraq on a direct order from God. Now, he has a direct order from his own church to leave. Is he listening?
I agree that a phased withdrawal would be a good thing...
after we have given the surge every opportunity to work and have given the Iraqis every opportunity to step up and take over security of their own country. We cannot afford to leave too quickly and allow AL Qaeda to take it over and use it as a base from which to attack us and I have no doubt they would do just that. As to Iran...I cannot see us invading Iran like we invaded Iraq, for a multitude of reasons. I believe the term surgical strikes would take on a whole new meaning if that became necessary. Honestly, I think if Ahmadinejad persists in this nuclear thing we will not have to do anything, because I believe Israel will handle it. I don't think Israel will stand by and let him get nukes. It would be suicide to do so...because if he attacked, that would be his first target, I would be willing to bet the farm. What I am really afraid of is he will put weapons grade nuc material in the hands of Al Qaeda for a dirty bomb to attack us with. That is why I don't want to abandon Iraq to become a base for such things. However, if the Iraqi govt does not step up...I would agree that we cannot stay there for life everlasting at the strength we are now. As you say, that does impair our safety at home. I think we need to concentrate on controlling our borders better.
On that note, I did see a somewhat encouraging report on illegals. Seems that more and more of them are moving on up to Canada because...get this...it is easier to get on programs if you are illegal and Canada pays more...LOL. Well more power to them I guess. Let Canada deal with them. I bet if we started a sweep to round up illegal aliens they would run north in droves. Which is okay too. Not great for Canada but better for us.
Be well, DW!
And that statement is ridiculous, Iran and Iraq enemies, remember the Iran-Iraq war? Iraq would jus
nm
Bush didn't destroy Iraq. He helped to liberate Iraq.
m
Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner. LOL....
GP, I like your sense of humor.
You call it hysteria, some call it concern for the
nm
Another way to use soldiers
Out of respect for your request, Democrat, I will call myself Starcat.
It seems to me the last sentence sums it up very well, but Bush doesn't have the guts for that, does he? Just canned questions and canned answers.
Bush Teleconference With Soldiers Staged
By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press WriterThu Oct 13, 4:35 PM ET
It was billed as a conversation with U.S. troops, but the questions President Bush asked on a teleconference call Thursday were choreographed to match his goals for the war in Iraq and Saturday's vote on a new Iraqi constitution.
This is an important time, Allison Barber, deputy assistant defense secretary, said, coaching the soldiers before Bush arrived. The president is looking forward to having just a conversation with you.
Barber said the president was interested in three topics: the overall security situation in Iraq, security preparations for the weekend vote and efforts to train Iraqi troops.
As she spoke in Washington, a live shot of 10 soldiers from the Army's 42nd Infantry Division and one Iraqi soldier was beamed into the Eisenhower Executive Office Building from Tikrit — the birthplace of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
I'm going to ask somebody to grab those two water bottles against the wall and move them out of the camera shot for me, Barber said.
A brief rehearsal ensued.
OK, so let's just walk through this, Barber said. Captain Kennedy, you answer the first question and you hand the mike to whom?
Captain Smith, Kennedy said.
Captain. Smith? You take the mike and you hand it to whom? she asked.
Captain Kennedy, the soldier replied.
And so it went.
If the question comes up about partnering — how often do we train with the Iraqi military — who does he go to? Barber asked.
That's going to go to Captain Pratt, one of the soldiers said.
And then if we're going to talk a little bit about the folks in Tikrit — the hometown — and how they're handling the political process, who are we going to give that to? she asked.
Before he took questions, Bush thanked the soldiers for serving and reassured them that the U.S. would not pull out of Iraq until the mission was complete.
So long as I'm the president, we're never going to back down, we're never going to give in, we'll never accept anything less than total victory, Bush said.
The president told them twice that the American people were behind them.
You've got tremendous support here at home, Bush said.
Less than 40 percent in an AP-Ipsos poll taken in October said they approved of the way Bush was handling Iraq. Just over half of the public now say the Iraq war was a mistake.
White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Thursday's event was coordinated with the Defense Department but that the troops were expressing their own thoughts. With satellite feeds, coordination often is needed to overcome technological challenges, such as delays, he said.
I think all they were doing was talking to the troops and letting them know what to expect, he said, adding that the president wanted to talk with troops on the ground who have firsthand knowledge about the situation.
The soldiers all gave Bush an upbeat view of the situation.
The president also got praise from the Iraqi soldier who was part of the chat.
Thank you very much for everything, he gushed. I like you.
On preparations for the vote, 1st Lt. Gregg Murphy of Tennessee said: Sir, we are prepared to do whatever it takes to make this thing a success. ... Back in January, when we were preparing for that election, we had to lead the way. We set up the coordination, we made the plan. We're really happy to see, during the preparation for this one, sir, they're doing everything.
On the training of Iraqi security forces, Master Sgt. Corine Lombardo from Scotia, N.Y., said to Bush: I can tell you over the past 10 months, we've seen a tremendous increase in the capabilities and the confidences of our Iraqi security force partners. ... Over the next month, we anticipate seeing at least one-third of those Iraqi forces conducting independent operations.
Lombardo told the president that she was in New York City on Nov. 11, 2001, when Bush attended an event recognizing soldiers for their recovery and rescue efforts at Ground Zero. She said the troops began the fight against terrorism in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and were proud to continue it in Iraq.
I thought you looked familiar, Bush said, and then joked: I probably look familiar to you, too.
Paul Rieckhoff, director of the New York-based Operation Truth, an advocacy group for U.S. veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, denounced the event as a carefully scripted publicity stunt. Five of the 10 U.S. troops involved were officers, he said.
If he wants the real opinions of the troops, he can't do it in a nationally televised teleconference, Rieckhoff said. He needs to be talking to the boots on the ground and that's not a bunch of captains.
Copyright © 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
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Soldiers are no different than anyone else....
in that there are those who disagree with this administration and the war. However, the overwhelming majority of the military respect the commander in chief and they believe in their mission. But, if you only watch CNN and liberal media, you will not hear from those soldiers. For every article from a liberal source you find that Bush did not listen to leaders, I can find one from a conservative source to counter. We will have to agree to disagree. I do not find this administration stubborn...I find this administration trying to stick to its guns so to speak, doing what is best in the long run for this country as far as countering terrorism. I know you do not understand nor want to understand the danger; however, I do. Every time Reid or Pelosi do something stupid, the liberal media lauds them as heroes and you can go right to the Arab news outlets and see how they pick it up and run with it. Al Qaeda must be lovin life right now. And that makes me SICK.
As to the half staff, talk about stubborness...I do not know and still do not understand why you cling to that as some kind of evidence that Bush doesn't care about the soldiers or people in Iraq, because he ordered a half staff for the VA Tech victims. And why you would say just because we have always done it that way... sheesh. Hanging onto this just screams at me that it is your problem with Bush personally and nothing else. I cannot see how you can find fault with the half staff and criticize the man for showing up at Va Tech. And..frankly...he cannot control what the governor said, but that being said...I do not understand the reaction of the left to it. But then I do not understand the reaction of the left to much of anything. I do not understand how you profess compassion for the Iraqi civilians yet want to cut and run and leave them to the terrorist thugs. That makes absolutely no sense to me. A President showing compassion for those kids at VA Tech, and you don't like that...what kind of sense does that make? The President shows compassion meeting with families of fallen soldiers, and if you look at him you can tell the toll this has all taken on him personally...if you took the time to look...not that you give a darn. I would like to say I understand you, but I don't. I used to think I did, but you have changed. It kinda reminds me of the at commercial I once saw that said: *You will be assimilated. Sadly, I believe you have been.
Who are these many soldiers?
I would be interested in knowing. I did not say you or anyone was Anti American...do not put words in my mouth. You used the word patriotic, I used it back to you. I said it was not illegal...and it is not. Congress voted for it. It is not illegal. If a soldier said it was immoral it is his right, like it is your right. However, when you talk about pulling funding when we have troops in battle, yes, I think that is unpatriotic, and if a soldier said we should pull funding, yes, I would say he was unpatriotic too. I have never heard a soldier say so. I have certainly never heard "many" soldiers call the war immoral either.
For the soldiers
As a tribute to our soldiers I felt a strong need to post this. As a prior US Army soldier I was proud of my country when I served and I am proud of all our soldiers in today's Army, and proud of anyone who decides (past, present, and future), that they love our country so much and the freedoms it offers us to give their time to the military. This is no small step. Your whole life changes in the blink of an eye (or however long it takes you to sign your name) and you will never be the same again or look at things the same as you did before.
The election recently has brought this to mind. I can remember the times my mom sending me an absentee ballot to vote and when I turned it in to my First Sergeant he looked at it and said Soldiers do not have the right to vote. You are a soldier in the Army and you will serve your country. We were "An Army of One" and our individual viewpoints do not matter. (When I joined J. Carter was president and this was the next election when Carter/Regan were running). So I threw my ballot in the garbage and followed my First Sergeant's order as a soldier is trained to do.
I have been reading that 68% of our veterans support J. McCain and only 23% support B. Obama. There is a post below that has an article that is focusing on only those 23%. In any organization you are going to have disgruntled employees, but if you were trying to judge a company would you base your decision on the few disgruntled or what the company employees have to say as a whole about their company.
Here are what some of the veterans are saying about their choices (link will follow below to the actual article) - This is how many in the military feels.
Most military will not vote for Obama, with every rule there is an exception but I personally know that the majority of the military will never vote for someone like him!
Because he is too inexperienced, and unfit to be the commander in chief of the Military!
His stance on foreign policy terrifies me!
He preaches change, but never says what that change will entail, but if you look at his record you can deduce that the change he talks about is a dumbed down version socialism, which sounds nice on paper but never works!
I’d much rather have a Commander in Chief who’s been in the military and one who knows what war is like, and McCain has 2 sons who are both in the Marine Corps and have fought in Iraq…
I’m sick of people telling me that they need to pull the troops out, when I am trying as hard as I can to rehabilitate and get back out there to finish the job! pulling us out would undo everything that we’ve worked for, everything that I sweat and bled for out there, everything that some very dear friends have died for! And by pulling us out you’d be saying that what we did didn’t amount to anything, and those lives lost were in vein.
There is a responsible way of pulling the troops out and there is an irresponsible way. If we just got pulled out of there then there would be a vacuum effect that would turn Iraq into more of a terrorist breeding ground than it ever was before, more so than even Afghanistan. And that would undo everything that we worked so hard to accomplish!!! I have been for this war from the very beginning, and even after facing death, being shot, and having all the surgeries I’ve had since I’ve been home I believe in the cause now more than ever. But even if you opposed the war to begin with we can’t abandon those people now it would be selfish, reckless, and utterly irresponsible to do so and would actually make things much worse for us in the long run.
I’m not the biggest McCain supporter there are many issues I don’t agree with him on but he at least understands all of this, he understands what we are going through over there, he understands combat, and he understands what is at stake in this war that the American people have seemingly abandoned and forgotten, not only our future but the future of an entire nation of people is at risk if we give in and pull out!
Some people don’t think it’s our responsibility to fight for other countries and stabilize their governments but as I’ve said before in previous blogs “It’s a good thing France didn’t have that attitude during our revolution, otherwise we never would have won our own Independence!!!”
Obama is not a competent Commander in Chief! You tell me what exactly he stands for???????? CHANGE? what the he!! is he gonna change? HOPE? what kind of hope? are you kidding me? he never says what the he!! he’s talking about, he just throws out what people want to hear but never provides a solution!!! Most people I talk to that say they’re gonna vote for him can’t even answer those questions, but they’re gonna vote for him because someone they know and respect says they are gonna vote for him! Why don’t you at least look into it yourself and make an educated decision! I can at least respect that! But that doesn’t seem to be the case in most people I’ve come across.
http://twana.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/veterans-against-obama/
One other note is that we need a person like McCain who will be workign towards winning the war and bring our troops home as the hero's they are. Not Obama's idea of pulling them all out irresponsibly and then they'll end up like the soldier's after the Vietnam War. They'll be called everything you can thing of (invader's, murderers, etc.). They'll be treated the same exact way the soldier's were treated from the Vietnam War.
I pray for our troops every day, and will pray until the election is over the the right person (McCain), will win this election.
Do you actually know any soldiers?
Are you honestly suggesting that the soldiers who are on the front lines are less informed than you are?
You think you 'have more opportunity to see the big picture and the real motives behind it' than the men and women putting their lives on the line.
Lady, please get a grip.
Maybe go volunteer at a VA Hospital. Then perhaps you will stop preaching your uninformed views from your keyboard.
I am sure that our soldiers would sm
rather shoot these terrorists too. They can't, they have to do what they have to do to get information out of them.
I can think a whole lot worse I would do to them that would get the information out of them a whole lot faster. Think I will save that though.
Sounds like you want to create a military force of a bunch of "mamby pambies" who do nothing but make sure the terrorists/prisoners are so comfy in their little beds. Good grief should we sing them to sleep to?
What do you think they do to Americans when they capture them? A whole lot more than we ever do to them. Come down to reality will ya?
Yes, our soldiers deserved better.
I think these are fallen soldiers...nm
soldiers votes
you know, on the news last evening, in a very mild manner, it was mentioned that maybe only 30% of the overseas military's votes will be counted this election, due to mail problems, time constraints, etc. OUTRAGEOUS!!! To boot, this also happened 4 yr ago, and still no one has fixed it (tho 1 senator is allegedly trying). Where are all the hanging chad type screaming complaints, the concern for the (hate this word now): disenfranchised???? IMO this would not be a hard problem to fix, so why is it still broke? A soldier's vote should be most definitely counted, WITHOUT FAIL. Grrrrrr. not to mention, that in Ohio, reported also last night, the homeless can now list their park benches as their addresses, and vote. Mind you, you cannot collect help in the form of welfare/food stamps etc without a solid normal address, but you can vote. nevermind that the homeless are likely uninformed. (don't feed or house them, just give them a ballot and tell them who to vote for...) all the while, our military's votes are casually tossed aside, with an "oh well..." i am still fuming the next day.
Tell that to the soldiers there who have heard
##
And you know this, how? Talk to the soldiers
We have several in our town who have been stationed down there and they will certainly tell you it scares the he!! out of them to see Obama is shutting Gitmo down. They personally have heard those incarcerated bragging about what has been done and laughing at the U.S. til the next attack when they heard Obama is closing it down.
Yea, why don't ya just feel sorry for all those poor guys down there, right up until the next attack!
Winter Soldiers
Short script on article of our war on terror - a sad commentary on what is really going on and how our soldiers are responding to it.......
http://www.truthout.org/031709A
Winter Soldiers Speak Out in Europe
Tuesday 17 March 2009
by: Maya Schenwar, t r u t h o u t | Report
![US]( "US") Pennsylvania before the Winter Solider hearings last March." src=http://www.truthout.org/files/images/A1_031709A.jpg>US veterans march from Philadelphia to Valley Forge before the Winter Solider hearings last March. (Photo: Susie Husted)
Last March, a group of soldiers and veterans gathered in Washington, DC, to recount their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. They spent three days testifying, confessing and mourning. They revealed atrocities never before spoken of - the brutal murders of civilians, the destruction of homes and villages, the rape and sexual assault of both civilians and US military women - and displayed photos and video footage to back up their claims. The event was titled "Winter Soldier," harkening back to the 1971 Winter Soldier Investigation, in which veterans gathered in Detroit to give testimony about war crimes they had committed or witnessed in Vietnam. Both Winter Soldiers zeroed in on the US military policy's devastating effects, straight from the mouths of those charged with carrying out that policy.
Full article excerpt can be found at: http://www.truthout.org/031709A
i wish we could be face to face
man lady you are something you know that? did you get on here to stir the pot or something? i am a woman that can conceive and I will tell you that I think you are a horrible person for thinking it is okay to get rid of your baby. There, I said it. that is MY opinion. Gonna try to get me banned now? Go ahead. Cry about it why dontcha?
Here it is, right in your face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's from the documentary "Media Malpractice - How Obama Got Elected"
Ever heard of YouTube? Or the internet? Amazing that you're the only one in America who hasn't seen the footage.
Go to www.howobamagotelected.com if you're interested in seeing the truth (which I doubt).
And here's an quote from the Zogby poll that inspired the film.
"UTICA, New York -- Just 2% of voters who supported Barack Obama on Election Day aced the post election test which gauged their knowledge of statements and scandals associated with the presidential tickets during the campaign, a new Zogby International poll shows.
Only 54% of Obama voters were able to answer at least half or more of the questions correctly.
The telephone survey of 512 Obama voters nationwide was conducted Nov. 13-15, 2008, and carries a margin of error of +/- 4.4 percentage points.
Obama voters did not fare nearly as well overall when asked to answer questions about statements or stories associated with Obama or Biden --
83% failed to correctly answer that Obama had won his first election by getting all of his opponents removed from the ballot.
88% did not correctly associate Obama with his statement that his energy policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry.
Nearly three quarters (72%) of Obama voters did not correctly identify Biden as the candidate who had to quit a previous campaign for President because he was found to have plagiarized a speech.
In addition to questions regarding statements and scandals associated with the campaigns, the survey also included a question asking which political party controlled both houses of Congress leading up to the election -- 57% of Obama voters were unable to correctly answer that it was Democrats."
Ignorance elected Obama. You're a prime example.
Well, on the face of it....
a "national security force" and Obama's statement about it does sound "Hitler-ish." Hitler's national security force was Gestapo. You really think we need a national security force in the US? We have the National Guard...ahhhh but the National Guard is in control of the individual states and that would not serve the same purpose as a "national security force" operating under the President...does it? Basically a military strength and trained force that functions as a police force gets around posse comitatus. That little statement of Barry's didn't give you the least bit of pause?
Yeah, and also I wonder how these soldiers would feel...sm
about the party who CLAIMS to support them but disrespect their families when they speak out. After all, did they not fight so freedoms like, freedom of speech, would be guaranteed?
I understand that families speaking out are not protected from retort but it is hypocritical to accuse liberals of not supporting the troops when you are the ones blasting fallen soldier's families. What do they just *support* conservative soldiers with conservative families???
I'm just sayin'
Murder charges for 3 U.S. soldiers..sm
I have mixed feelings about this y'all. There is no doubt in my mind that mental issues are involved given the situation. However, they could have just been following orders. Or, worse just murdered the Iraqis on their own volition and threatened a fellow soldier.
Definitely worth the investigation, which sends the message that we (the US) does not tolerate this type behavior from our soldiers.
---------------------------------
Murder charges for 3 U.S. soldiers
They are accused of killing 3 Iraqis
Julian E. Barnes, Los Angeles Times
Tuesday, June 20, 2006
(06-20) 04:00 PDT Washington -- Three U.S. soldiers have been charged with the premeditated murder of three Iraqi detainees as well as with threatening the life of a fellow soldier who they feared would challenge their accounts of the deaths, military officials said Monday.
The three Americans were identified as staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard, Spc. William B. Hunsaker and Pfc. Corey R. Clagett, all members of the 3rd Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division. They were charged with shooting the detainees May 9 during a military operation near Thar Thar Canal in Salahuddin province north of Baghdad.
A murder conviction in the military carries the possibility of the death penalty. The accused soldiers are being held in Kuwait, a Pentagon official said. No personal information was available Monday about the soldiers.
The latest charges come as the military is conducting a separate investigation of the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha in November. Military investigators are examining possible murder charges against a group of Marines for those deaths. In addition, seven other marines and a Navy corpsman are being held in the brig at Camp Pendleton (San Diego County) in connection with the death of an Iraqi man in another town, Hamandiya. Since the start of the Iraq war, the military has brought criminal charges against at least 20 other service members in deaths of Iraqis.
Military officials first mentioned the Salahuddin investigation in a brief news release June 16. But details of how the three soldiers shot the men, near the Muthana Chemical Complex, have remained sketchy. The military has not said why the three Iraqis were being detained.
In addition to murder, the soldiers were charged with conspiracy and with threatening another soldier. Military officials said the accused initially reported they shot the detainees while they were trying to flee.
But that account was contradicted by a junior soldier who saw the shooting. Defense Department charge sheets released Monday identify the object of the threats as Bradley Mason, an Army private first class. The legal papers do not specify whether Mason is the soldier who witnessed the killings.
The accused soldiers are charged with threatening to kill Mason on May 29, as the group was traveling from its own operating base to Camp Speicher, near Tikrit, where the Criminal Investigation Division has an office.
You better not say anything, or I swear I will kill you, Girouard allegedly told Mason, according to charge sheets.
Girouard is accused of threatening to kill Mason six different times in the weeks after the detainees died. Hunsaker is accused of threatening Mason four times, and Clagett twice.
They face a hearing to determine if there is enough evidence for a court-martial. The first proceeding, known as an Article 32 hearing, is likely several weeks away, a military officer said.
The military has not executed anyone since April 1961, but nine people are on death row, including a sergeant in the 101st Airborne who killed two officers and wounded 14 soldiers in Kuwait in March 2003.
These are fallen soldiers not WTC victims
And the why is pretty clear. By the way, this was addressed to Liberals who definitely understand and appreciate the ***why***
Young soldiers I know personally and on TV. Many
many of them felt very differently when they first went to war. After coming back they seem to come back with a very different view. Most of the soldiers I know think the war needs to end. I don't think most Americans think we should stop funding the war until the soldiers come home, and that's just it, many of us want them to come home! I watched a documentary on Showtime called Semper Fi, and it was a really moving account of a proud Marine's time in Iraq. I would definitely recommend watching it if you want to hear a first-hand account of how one patriotic soldier was disillusioned by the war and how he was given false information over and over again by his higher-ups. I don't claim to know the solution, and I know none of the candidates on either side have the perfect solution either, but I just feel that we are not making the progress we should be making, kids' mothers and fathers are dying every day in Iraq, and it makes me incredibly sad. Simple as that. I don't think we have any right to be there. I do believe we had a right to go to Afganistan, but not Iraq. That's just my feeling, and I really don't feel like getting into a huge debate about the war. I just want it to end.
Very sad. Our soldiers are giving their lives....sm
and they are coming home severly injured to less than adequate medical care after excellent care in the field, no psychological counseling, no support for their families, deplorable living conditions, and on and on. I believe this war is wrong but support the troops 100%. Disgraceful!
I fully support our soldiers -
As I have said before, I have a son who just graduated basic training last week, I was a soldier's wife for 20 years (one who served in the Gulf War during our marriage and is currently in Iraq now), and my father served in the Korean war, but I still think that the Iraq war is pointless and we do not need to be there. I don't think we should ever have been there, but definitely should be home now.
Even the Iraqi people don't want us to get out and come home and let them handle their own country.
Hating the war does not mean hating the soldiers - it means wanting the ones that are left to be home and alive and in one piece!
We have brought home 2 soldiers
recently to our town, unfortunately, it was too late for them.
On face value, no exploitation. But
nm
And you better be glad that someone is willing to get in their face....
because that is all they understand, and that is why we have not had another attack in this country. It is precisely THIS kind of thinking that we DO NOT need in the white house. Diplomacy is fine...and many times it works. But your enemies have to know that if hit, you will hit back hard. I have no faith that Barack Obama would act decisively (like Clinton with Khobar Towers, the first world trade center bombing, the COle, and on and on and on). I don't want things like that happening again. I want them sitting back on their heels like they are now. John McCain will keep them there and he won't be having tea with Ahmadinejad without rules. It just shows that Barack Obama has no clue what he is dealing with. No clue.
Yes, that is very true....but now he has to face everyone...
not just Democrats. Personally, the association with Wright did not put me off Obama. What put me off was the Marxist tones of the theology taught in that church, Obama's teaching of Alinsky's techniques, and already trying to implement Marxist principles. I admit, that is alarming to me. I can't hold Obama personally responsible for what his pastor said and never did...I can hold him responsible for his actions. As can we all with ANY candidate...be it McCain, Palin, Obama, or Biden.
It is not a slap in the face.... sm
take it however you like, that is my personal opinion. We have a lot of great women leaders and yes a lot of women have fought for our rights as women, but that has nothing to do with a women running this country. Again, my personal opinion and why should I go and be a man because that is how I feel. Different people with different opinions, part of what makes the world go round. I feel the way I feel and I am not ashamed of it.
You really just proved the exact reason I stated women are not ready to lead this country. You reacted with emotions stating I should be ashamed and I am a disgrace, you were GUIDED by your EMOTIONS/FEELINGS. Goodnight!!
...where they don't have to face the truth.
xx
That face was priceless!!!
nm
let's face it, none of those people
buy their clothes from wal-mart and it would not take much to rack up 150,000, especially when identical suits were bought in 2 or 3 sizes just to make sure one would fit. I don't think we got all the truth of that one; without a definite source being named, I am suspicious.
Ok, let's try another face on this whole thing.....
SO IT IS OKAY TO KILL BABIES BUT NOT TORTURE TERRORISTS?
Somewhere we have gotten our priorities wrong. We should be more worried about the unborn than a bunch of terrorists who could give a fat rat's backside about anybody but themselves.
Waiting to get blown up...from a soldiers mouth..sm
BAGHDAD, July 26 Army Staff Sgt. Jose Sixtos considered the simple question about morale for more than an hour. But not until his convoy of armored Humvees had finally rumbled back into the Baghdad military base, and the soldiers emptied the ammunition from their machine guns, and passed off the bomb-detecting robot to another patrol, did he turn around in his seat and give his answer.
Think of what you hate most about your job. Then think of doing what you hate most for five straight hours, every single day, sometimes twice a day, in 120-degree heat, he said. Then ask how morale is.
Frustrated? You have no idea, he said.
As President Bush plans to deploy more troops in Baghdad, U.S. soldiers who have been patrolling the capital for months describe a deadly and infuriating mission in which the enemy is elusive and success hard to find. Each day, convoys of Humvees and Bradley Fighting Vehicles leave Forward Operating Base Falcon in southern Baghdad with the goal of stopping violence between warring Iraqi religious sects, training the Iraqi army and police to take over the duty, and reporting back on the availability of basic services for Iraqi civilians.
But some soldiers in the 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment, 1st Armored Division -- interviewed over four days on base and on patrols -- say they have grown increasingly disillusioned about their ability to quell the violence and their reason for fighting. The battalion of more than 750 people arrived in Baghdad from Kuwait in March, and since then, six soldiers have been killed and 21 wounded.
It sucks. Honestly, it just feels like we're driving around waiting to get blown up. That's the most honest answer I could give you, said Spec. Tim Ivey, 28, of San Antonio, a muscular former backup fullback for Baylor University. You lose a couple friends and it gets hard.
No one wants to be here, you know, no one is truly enthused about what we do, said Sgt. Christopher Dugger, the squad leader. We were excited, but then it just wears on you -- there's only so much you can take. Like me, personally, I want to fight in a war like World War II. I want to fight an enemy. And this, out here, he said, motioning around the scorched sand-and-gravel base, the rows of Humvees and barracks, toward the trash-strewn streets of Baghdad outside, there is no enemy, it's a faceless enemy. He's out there, but he's hiding.
We're trained as an Army to fight and destroy the enemy and then take over, added Dugger, 26, of
Reno, Nev. But I don't think we're trained enough to push along a country, and that's what we're actually doing out here.
It's frustrating, but we are definitely a help to these people, he said. I'm out here with the guys that I know so well, and I couldn't picture myself being anywhere else.
'Never-Ending Battle'
After a five-hour patrol on Saturday through southern Baghdad neighborhoods, soldiers from the 1st Platoon sat on wooden benches in an enclosed porch outside their barracks. Faces flushed and dirty from the grit and a beating sun, they smoked cigarettes and tossed them at a rusted can that said Butts.
The commanders in Baghdad and the Pentagon are looking at the big picture all the time, but for us, we don't see no big picture, it's just always another bomb out here, said Spec. Joshua Steffey, 24, of Asheville, N.C. The company's commanding officer, Capt. Douglas A. DiCenzo of Plymouth, N.H., and his gunner, Spec. Robert E. Blair of Ocala, Fla., were killed by a roadside bomb in May.
Steffey said he wished somebody would explain to us, 'Hey, this is what we're working for.' With a stream of expletives, he said he could not care less if Iraq's free or if they're a democracy.
I mean, if you compare the casualty count from this war to, say, World War II, you know obviously it doesn't even compare, Fulcher said. But World War II, the big picture was clear -- you know you're fighting because somebody was trying to take over the world, basically. This is like, what did we invade here for?
How did it become, 'Well, now we have to rebuild this place from the ground up'? Fulcher asked.
He kept talking. They say we're here and we've given them freedom, but really what is that? You know, what is freedom? You've got kids here who can't go to school. You've got people here who don't have jobs anymore. You've got people here who don't have power, he said. You know, so yeah, they've got freedom now, but when they didn't have freedom, everybody had a job.
Steffey got up to leave the porch and go to bed.
You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing, he said. We're far too deep in this now....
Yeah!! Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming...
Got to get down to it - get rid of the current regime!!!!
And where do these "fresh" soldiers exist? Appalachia?
You seem to forget some of our troops have served 5 tours.......Army personnel are committing suicide at an alarming rate.....there is no draft....the whole premise for the war on Iraq was based on deceit.....can't you dig up some other reason to hate Obama? Your arguments are becoming less and less convincing...even though they have been transparent BS from the get go, IMHO.
Here's something to wipe the smile off your face. sm
She is an extremist as far as being pro-life. 
Did you see the look on George & Laura's face?sm
You know George bounced off the walls when he got home. There is only one look I found more hilarious, and that was the look on Mike Myer's face when Kanye West made the famous statement George Bush does not care about black people.
It sounds good on the face....
but I don't see American physicians taking a 3x cut in their income. It boggles the mind to think what the initial cost of that billing system they are talking about would be. And the big thing that concerns me is the "broad taxes on earned and unearned income." Like I have said over and over...if they can find the money without taking more than 35% off the top of my wages, I am all for it. However, I am not willing to go to 50-55%. I don't know many who are.
I guess you don't like to face the facts
There is a link that I included. His half brother and he were raised as muslims. If your a Christian that's a big deal, if your not religious at all its no big deal (or maybe it is).
You are the one who needs to get with the program. You don't want to face the facts about Obama and his background and what he believes in, stands for, or has voted for/against. Your hatred for one candidate blinds you to what the other candidate is really about.
Sorry but this is not "crock" and it was not refuted, just the democrats tried to cover it up. So you need to "get with the program" and stop believe all hogwash you are being fed by the liberal media.
There is a link. There is picture. And there is proof - his own brother! What part of this don't you understand.
Face it, this is a political issue.....NM
.
Bush tries to save some face --
It looks like our wonderful govt is thinking about another stimulus -- remember those tax rebates we got back in the spring of this year? It was $600 an individual and $1200 a couple. The govt doesn't want to do quite the same kind of stimulus as last time because -- get this -- 80% of the Americans who received it used it to either pay down debt or bolster savings. Here's what they want the new stimulus to do:
•The extension of unemployment benefits and possibly food stamps from 39 to 52 weeks.
•A boost in infrastructure spending, despite the problems of getting the money to work quickly.
•Some relief for state and local governments facing tighter budgets because of lower tax receipts and rising Medicaid costs.
God forbid we give something to the middle class -- let's extend the food stamps and boost the "infrastructure spending" -- what is that anyway? I'm guessing it's a way to line the pockets of the suits even more. When is it going to end?
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