He saw it coming while Clinton was signing
Posted By: our country away........nm on 2008-09-19
In Reply to: McCain saw Fannie/Freddie coming in 2005... - sam
xx
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Who's REALLY signing up for the military these days.
Military's Recruiting Troubles Extend to Affluent War Supporters
By Terry M. Neal
washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Monday, August 22, 2005; 8:00 AM
There was an eye-opening article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette a few days ago that explored the increasing difficulty the military is having recruiting young people to enlist. As has been well reported in many newspapers, including The Washington Post, the Army and Marines are having a particularly tough time meeting recruitment objectives, in part because of Americans' concern about the war in Iraq.
When you dig deeper into the reason for this phenomenon, it turns out that parents of potential soldiers and sailors are becoming one of the biggest obstacles facing military recruiters. Even top military officials acknowledge this and unveiled a new series of ads this spring targeted at influencers such as parents, teachers and coaches.
But the Post-Gazette raises another issue. There has been much talk about the relationship between race and ethnicity and military recruitment. But what about social and economic class? Are wealthier Americans, who are more likely to be Republicans and therefore more likely to support the war, stepping up to the plate and urging their children and others from their communities to enlist?
Unfortunately, there has been no definitive study on this subject. But it appears that the affluent are not encouraging their children and peers to join the war effort on the battlefield.
The writer of the Post-Gazette article, Jack Kelly, explored this question in his story that ran on Aug. 11. Kelly wrote of a Marine recruiter, Staff Sgt. Jason Rivera, who went to an affluent suburb outside of Pittsburgh to follow up with a young man who had expressed interest in enlisting. He pulled up to a house with American flags displayed in the yard. The mother came to the door in an American flag T-shirt and openly declared her support for the troops.
But she made it clear that her support only went so far.
Military service isn't for our son, she told Rivera. It isn't for our kind of people.
The Post-Gazette piece focused on parental disapproval of military recruitment efforts, and dealt only tangentially with the larger question of class. What we do know is that recruiting is down across the board and that both the Army and Marines have fallen significantly behind their recruiting goals.
This is what the Army's hired advertising company, Leo Burnett, had to say about the ads targeting influencers that it began running in April: Titled 'Dinner Conversation,' 'Two Things,' 'Good Training' and 'Listening' (Spanish-language ad), the commercials portray moments ranging from a son telling his mother he's found someone to pay for college, to a father praising his son who has just returned from Basic Training for the positive ways in which he's changed. They capture the questions, hopes and concerns parents have about a career serving the United States of America and include families from many different backgrounds.
I asked Army spokeswoman Maj. Elizabeth Robbins for further explanation on the intent of the ads.
Clearly it was to talk to influencers, she said. She said studies have shown that today's young people yearn to serve their country in one way or another. The problem is that today the people who influence their decisions are less likely than they were in past generations to recommend [military service].
Why?
In part because the economy is strong, said Robbins. In part because they are concerned about the war. And in part because fewer of them have a direct relationship with the military or have ever served.
So would it be logical to conclude that, if the strong economy is one of the reasons it is more difficult to recruit, the most affluent parents should be the most difficult to reach? After all, their children have more options, including college, than less affluent parents? And if that's true, isn't it somewhat ironic that the military is paying millions of dollars ultimately to influence the behavior of the parents who are among the most likely to be supportive of the war in Iraq?
I disagree with your premise, Robbins said, arguing that the military is represented strongly across the board by people of all income levels and faces challenges in recruiting at all income levels.
Referring to the Post-Gazette anecdote, she said, One woman saying stupid things does not a trend make.
Actually, I did have a premise, but it wasn't unshakable. But because neither the Army nor the Defense Department keeps detailed information about the household incomes of the people who join, it was not easy to prove or disprove.
So let's approach the issue this way: In the 2004 election, household income was a pretty decent indicator of how one might vote. Voters from households making more than $50,000 a year favored Bush 56 percent to 43 percent. Voters making $50,000 or less favored Kerry 55 to 44 percent. Median household income as of 2003 was $43,318, according to the U.S. Census.
The wealthier you become, apparently, the more likely you are to vote Republican. The GOP advantage grows more pronounced for people from households making more than $100,000. People from households with incomes exceeding that amount voted for Bush over Kerry by 58 percent to 41 percent. Those from households making less than $100,000 favored Kerry over Bush 51 to 49 percent. And nearly two-thirds of voters from households making more than $200,000 favored Bush over Kerry.
Those making more than $100,000 made up only 18 percent of the electorate, which explains why Bush won by a narrow 2.5 percentage points in the general election.
This raises all sorts of complicated socioeconomic questions, such as whether the rich expect others to fight their wars for them. Or, asked another way, are they more likely to support the war in Iraq because their families are less likely to carry part of the burden?
Certainly, there are no absolutes here. Many of the wealthy are Democrats, some of whom support the war. Some of whom oppose it. Many of the poor and working class are Republicans, and support the GOP on Iraq.
By looking at long-term trends, it seems logical that some of those most likely to support Bush and his Iraq policy are also those least likely to encourage their children to go into the military at wartime. And it raises questions, such as, if you are among those most likely to support the war, shouldn't you be among those most likely to encourage your child to serve in the military? Shouldn't your socioeconomic group be the most receptive to the recruiters' call? And would there be a recruitment problem at all if the affluent put their money where their mouth is?
Several social scientists have studied the question of economics and class in military enlistment. Many of these studies don't look at the officer ranks, which might tend to counter some of the class argument. But officers, of course, make up a relatively small portion of the military.
Among the more recent studies was one done last year by Robert Cushing, a retired professor of sociology at the University of Texas at Austin. He tracked those who died in Iraq by geography and found that whites from small, mostly poor, rural areas made up a disproportionately large percentage of the casualties in Iraq.
I talked to two other academicians who have studied the issue. Their conclusions, though reached prior to the war in Iraq, were helpful because of their understanding of the historical implications of the class question.
David R. Segal, director of the Center for Research on Military Organizations at the University of Maryland, said contrary to conventional wisdom both the poorest and the wealthiest people are underrepresented at the bottom of the military ranks, for completely different reasons. This trend held for both from the conscription years of Vietnam through at least the late 1990s.
Poorer people, he said, are likely to be kept out of the military by a range of factors, including higher likelihood of having a criminal record or academic deficiencies or health problems.
Back during Vietnam, the top [economic class] had access for means of staying out of the military, said Segal. The National Guard was known to be a well-to-do white man's club back then. People knew if you if joined the guard you weren't going to go to Vietnam. That included people like Dan Quayle and our current commander in chief. If you were rich, you might have found it easier to get a doctor to certify you as having a condition that precluded you from service. You could get a medical deferment with braces on your teeth, so you would go get braces -- something that was very expensive back then. The wealthy had more access to educational and occupational deferments.
Today's affluent merely see themselves as having more options and are not as enticed by financial incentives, such as money for college, Segal said.
The Army was able to provide socioeconomic data only for the 2002 fiscal year. Its numbers confirm Segal's findings that service members in the highest and lowest income brackets are underrepresented, but because those numbers chronicle enlistments in the year immediately following the 2001 terrorist attacks, it's difficult to ascertain whether this was a normal recruiting year.
Segal and Jerald G. Bachman, a research professor at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, have studied the correlation between a parental education levels and likelihood for their offspring to enlist.
Examining data from early to mid-1990s, they created five categories, with one being the lowest level. Perhaps not surprisingly, they found the children of the most-educated parents -- those with post-graduate degrees -- were the least likely to join the military. The children of parents with high school diplomas were three times more likely to enlist.
One of the interesting phenomenon of today's politics is that, in general, Republicans tend to be more educated on average than Democrats, with a larger percentage either holding a bachelor's degree or having attended some college. But Democrats represent a larger portion of the super-educated -- that is, those holding graduate degrees. So Democrats are made up of the least and the most educated, with Republicans congregated largely near, but not at, the top.
So how did those near the top of the educational tree do in Segal's and Bachman's study? They were half as likely as those in group two to enlist. And because there are far more people who have been to college or have bachelor's degrees than there are people who have post-graduate degrees, the former group has far more political influence, just in sheer numbers.
While there have been changes in racial and ethnic enlistment trends, with the number of black recruits dropping precipitously since the Iraq war, Segal and Bachman said they've seen nothing to indicate significant changes in the class -- of which education levels is a prime indicator -- trends in the military.
Journalists can get themselves in trouble by drawing simplistic conclusions based on less-than-exhaustive research, and we won't do so here. But we can at least raise the question of whether the rich are more likely to support the war because their loved ones are less likely to die in it.
Comments can be sent to Terry Neal at commentsforneal@washingtonpost.com.
© 2005 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive
Obama had no trouble signing 5 executive orders
if he is so opposed to bombing Pakistan, why did he give the order to do so? US drones bombing Pakistan. He is now in charge.....Bush can't call those shots.
Like I said, as long as Dems are in control, they suddenly have no problem with bombing ANYONE......just goes to show you what they will be doing to this country........just bend over and take it like a good little girl
New bill to clear way for Congree to sue Bush for signing statements.sm
http://www.fox21.com/Global/story.asp?S=5191362&nav=2KPp
Where is this coming from? sm
When you same something this inflammatory, this hateful, this destructive, and this untrue, you need to give a source other than your personal opinion.
No, I don't get where you are coming from.....
Did a gay/lesbian person EVER push their lifestyle on you? If so, they were simply classless people. I have never had that happen with couples (2 separate people tried to hit on me, same sex, but, they erroneously thought I was of the same ilk). What people do in their bedroom is their own business. I was raised in a small town, my family was well acquainted with several gay couples. One of the ladies was a very powerful deputy sheriff who commanded respect and who also owned half the town. She was one of the most intelligent, fascinating people I have ever met. I was raised to look at it as a non-issue. It didn't change who those people were. We loved them no matter what.
this coming from the
person who told another poster to "shut up" recently. War, economy, health care. We are dealing with horrific problems here.
Where are you coming from?
The post that Zville put up had only 2 responses besides yourself. How that has anything to do with "rabid Republicans" and the rest of your post is out of line. No one but you mentioned the different parties.
What is coming......sm
No need to check this out on Snopes because it won't be there. This actually happened to a friend's friend and my friend told me about it.
I ordered a pizza and when the delivery guy comes to the door I see he is an older guy. With a heavy accent he pointed to my yard sign and said "That is right, no Obama, yes McCain." I nodded in approval and said "Thats right!" and he went on to say "I lived 37 years under a communist government, and what is coming, is communism."
Now, if that don't scare ya straight, I don't know what will.
Coming to the top with you...
I just didn't want this message to get lost below.
This post is nothing but an opinion by an unidentified author from an obscure website. This website is run by a guy named Jeff Rense. He also does a radio talk show about UFO sightings. Nice research there partner!
no one is coming
since you are making a racist remark against whites, you need to know I am black and I too have a gun and ammo. You think only white people have that? And I too am a conservative and I suppose you would consider me right wing, if you want to give it a name. I am a God fearing person whom you call hyper-religious. I am against abortion and believe we have the right to bear arms.
Need to reassess your own views first.
The coming
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/7901
where is this coming from - seriously? nm
x
Isn't that coming anyway?
Government is getting more and more control over things. If they take control of everything.....what makes you think they won't tell us how to live, where to live, what we can buy, etc.
How would you like somebody coming
into your house and taking it away from you? Not every people accepts this, because it is wrong.
You don't even know who I am, I only started coming here.
x
Indictments coming down
One to ffive indictments coming down. Those involved have already been told. Indictments are sealed until tomorrow.
And the funnies keep on coming.
I hope for your sake that laws are never changed to require a voter to have a double-digit IQ. 
Exactly! Coming together as Americans...
and out from under all "labels" is where the answer lies. No one truly believes in Democracy anymore. In days gone by, yes, there would be grousing going up to election, a little grousing after election, then we were all friends again until the next election cycle. All this polarization is ridiculous, and disliking someone strictly on their political stance, and saying silly things like "I have known people like you all my life" and focusing that frustration on one person they don't even know...how silly is that?? I suppose because they can't confront those people in "real life" they come here to unload on strangers. It is truly my way or the highway, and it is that way on BOTH sides. Would it not be wonderful to be Americans first and liberals or conservatives or polka-dotted SECOND?
Keep 'em coming.
I’m going to take a page out of your book again and simply jump over this latest denial/dodge of yours...just like you did with the context post. Blame game bluster scores no points here. The ignorance seems to be unending, but at least you could try to know your own party platform. Think you can handle that?
Bottom line. This is so simple, even you can get it. Dems would impose the R-words (regulatiions and restrictions) on the transnationals....back in the day, we called it monopoly busting. Pubs give them the keys to the candy store, the greed of the wealthy being what it is and all. Gotta keep those CEOs perks coming.
We can all see how well that has worked for us. One does not have to look too far to see just how inept the party has been over the past 8 years in all things economic. Huge surplus transformed to deepest deficit of all times, virtually overnight, gas/food, bank foreclosures, housing crisis, rising unemployment, wage stagnation, inflation/recession. Bush’s latest brilliant explanation for all this is that “Wall Street got drunk. It has a hangover. Don’t know how long it will take them to sober up.” This would be the extent of his experience? Scarey. Maybe he has been reading McCain's joke book. The candidate tells us that the economy “is not his strong suit.” Disarmingly honest, but none to comforting. Speaks for itself.
Touched on this in the economics paragraph in the context post, but you chose to ignore that...or, in your own words, maybe that was the one you were not paying attention to, I forget. In fact, no response from you, Sam, speaks volumes and sheds a whole lot more light on the subject than anything you might actually come out and try to say. Go figure.
Ok, I understand where you are coming from...
we just agree to disagree on this. Politicians say slanderous things about each other all the time...it is the nature of the beast. And the presidential election year is when all these kinds of books come out, with innuendo and stuff from "unnamed sources" on both sides.
But bottom line, all the things I know about Obama and the company he keeps and the things he has done in his political life are much more concerning to me than whether or not John McCain called his wife a vulgar name. With only these two choices, mine will have to be McCain.
I am not sure your statement of "he is a mean and nasty person all around" is a fair characterization either. He and his wife have been involved with many charitable efforts, mostly to do with children. Have you read about their adopted daughter?
That being said, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and to state it, as am I. :) Have a good evening.
I have been coming to this board off and on
for a while now, usually just stay quiet because I don't agree with half of what either side says and I really don't like all the bashing part of politics. Some of the things said here and other places are quite disgusting, the bickering I can handle and actually enjoy reading, but when it gets to that base level it is just disturbing to me. But, here is my question. And, I'll preface it by saying that I am a Republican but am finding myself more of an independent after the last 8 years.
For all the people spouting off the virtues of Sarah Palin, I have not heard one comment in her defense or an excuse for her about her part in that whole radio morning show. You know the one, where the radio DJ was making fun, being cruel really, about a the President of the Senate in Alaska that he, nor SP like. You know the part when he called her fat and SP just laughed, when he called this woman a BI*CH and she just laughed, when he called this woman a cancer and she just laughed (BTW, this woman actually had cancer and they knew that). Sure, she later said she was "caught off guard" by his comment. Whatever. Wouldn't a decent human being have just said, Stop. I'm not going to take part in this. Any number of things. If she was so caught off guard by that, what is she going to do as VP. And, how does she end the whole conversation. When the DJ makes a comment about visiting Palin, she says "I'd be honored to have you."
This is probably my #1 problem with her. She seems to have a total lack of compassion. She enjoyed bashing Obama during her speech the other night, and I was disgusted to see that the audience seemed to enjoy it too. I have worked within my community and I am proud of that, as should Obama be. I didn't hear a whole lot in her speech about what she plans to do, or what her actual stand on issues are. I didn't hear much of them from McCain either.
I dare say that if these 2 keep letting her evade the tough questions, well any questions at all, I might be crossing lines this year. Yes, it seems that the media, or certain media, are unnecessarily attacking her but I hope that doesn't become an excuse for them to have her not answer questions.
I used to be pro-Obama, but so much keeps coming out (sm)
To be honest, I am not really thrilled about either of our choices, however, Obama scares me more...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7145283472276068711&ei=5DTUSIvKFoPo-AGg7omyAg&q=Look%2C+I+got+two+daughters+%E2%80%94+9+years+old+and+6+years+old%2C%22+he+said.+%22I+am+going+to+teach+them+first+about+values+and+morals%2C+but+if+they+make+a+mistake&vt=lf&hl=en
Okay. Whatever. You just do not get where I am coming from. Forget it.
I DO NOT LIKE EITHER CANDIDATE. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. Thank you. Blast Obama, Blast McCain. The ECONOMY is the problem right now. But nobody seems to care about that. Just constant bashing, and scare tactics. Done with the whole thing. Bye.
where are the cuts coming from?
who is losing out ESPECIALLY when he has all these plans for additional government programs?
It's coming along great!
I just have myself involved in so much that I don't have enough time as I would like to devote to it. I'm going to start teaching classes at a local Teen Ranch. They have acreage and will be able to raise their own gourds, make gourd art and sell it to raise money. Here's a link to their website http://www.arkansasteenchallenge.org/ Well, that's the website anyway, I can never get the link thing to work.
Tues. and Wed.morning this week I did a field trip for the local 4th and 5th grade classes (212 of them) at the Cane Hill College Building and spoke to them about the history of the college (it was the first college west of the Mississipi and is said to have fostered the public education system in Arkansas.) It was turned into a public school around the turn of the century. I was apprehensive about speaking to these kids but guess I did okay, one of the students said she wished she could go to school just 1 day like the kids did who attended school there. A teacher quickly picked up on that idea and we're making plans to take one class at a time and give them such a day. The last class was in the 1950s so the kids will dress in period clothing (no pants and they will divide up in groups and the teacher will teach 3 "grade" levels to simulate how it was done when it was a school. Long story about the reasons but I will take my huge cauldron pot and make stew over a wood fire and they will have soup, peanut butter and SYRUP sandwiches, dessert and milk for lunch. Of course parent volunteers will be there helping me.
Sorry about so much personal information but I get really excited about things I believe in and that also includes our government and it's serious need for change.
i have no doubt He is coming
than we think.
This coming from the very person
who didn't know what sm and NM meant and thought every person using sm was the same person.
At least I'm not blinded by the promise of change from a man who has no experience running anything but his mouth.
The End of the World Is Coming!
As long as the folks get a rise out of ya, they will continue to post it.
GP - I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from
I just don't understand it. I don't want to argue I want to understand why you feel this way. Forget who supports who. I don't care if you support the same person as me or not. I don't care how many days until election. It could be 100 or it could be 1. If you hear Obama's voice and he says very clearly and even democrats on TV are saying "tell me he didn't say that". But his own voice (and he does not deny he said it) that he will bankrupt any investor in coal power plants, and then in his own voice he said that he will make energy prices skyrocket, why don't you believe it.
Again, I could care less about how many days there are til the election. It's Obama's voice saying this and I'd really like to know why you don't believe it. My MIL is like this and I can't have a conversation with her because when I ask her today why she doesn't believe it she told me because Bush is the antichrist and Obama would never say anything like that because he is the savior of our country. I asked her what she meant and she said everyone is trying to demonize Obama and those weren't his words. So I couldn't get a straight answer from her. So maybe you can explain if you hear Obama saying this why you don't believe it.
Where do you think all this money is coming from?
Are you naive enough to think they just print it? TAXES. Too many "social programs" means more TAXES, not only from the rich but from everyone.
Yes, I think there is a depression coming if it isn't already here. sm
I live in Michigan, on the west side of the state, but nonetheless in Michigan. We are so tied up in the auto industry that if the Big 3 crash and burn, Michigan may well just cease to exist. We have had 3 auto parts plants close down, Steelcase and Herman Miller are cutting jobs, because people are not hiring, so why make all that office furniture. There is nothing incoming to help take up the slack. Then, I heard on the news this morning that the city of Detroit has now appealed to the feds for help to bail it out. Detroit IS big 3 auto country. If Detroit tanks, so goes the rest of the state. Kwame Kilpatrick fallout not withstanding.
I like to think that as long as people get sick, I will have a job because I do acute care. And we all know that there are people who use the ED as a PCP. Hopefully my doctor in AZ can help me out, but he is a specialist, so who knows.
My 403(b) has lost half of what it used to be, and then I hear that they have suspended the sales of MRE's. But I think that is just over-excitable hype.
However....I have a feeling that the "Great Depression" 2008 style is coming. I don't think the "End Times" is coming, but something has to give or the United States of America will become another third world country.
And where this funding coming from?
xx
Funny coming from YOU
calling the kettle black!
I Told You It Was Coming
http://forum.mtstars.com/misc/v/11/52289.html
This has been long coming even before
Bushy took over. Bush didn't help by any means but he wasn't the only greedy SOB who contributed to this mess. Our government as a whole is pretty darn greedy and they keep sticking it to the American people and we let them. So what will we say when unemployment continues to rise under Obama's regime? What will we say when his stimulus packages stimulates absolutely nothing? What will we say when the jobs Obama might create are only temporary jobs? What will we say when at the end of his first term things are worse than they are now and the deficit has doubled if not more? What will you say when government has control of everything?
Bush is no longer in office. We now have to hold Obama's feet to the fire. I'm tired of putting blind faith in my president. Obama is not going to turn our country around. In fact, I believe he will finish the job of running it into the ground. Then what? Are you finally going to blame Obama for all the spending he has done in the first couple months of his presidency? When government totally takes over everything, are you going to stop and realize that all of these government programs Obama wants to institute are the cause? No....you will still be whining about 8 years under Bush.
Stop this pub vs dem thing. They all suck!!!!! no group is better. They are all liars and all out for themselves. Stand up to government and make them work for us like they are supposed to.
I take that as a compliment coming from you!
;-)
It is coming true................
 Everything that was said about Obama and what he would try to do is happening....... Now his administration is labeling conservatives as "extremist" and just before the tea parties because he knows the citizens are ****!! AND you hide and watch...... I guarantee you he is now telling all first responders to watch out for those people exercising their 1st amendment rights of showing their disdain for the government robbing them blind of their hard earned money. This should frighten everyone.....even those that think Obama is such a wonderful thing!
This criminal administration is on their way to trying to shut up ANYONE that speaks out against any of their policies while at the same time letting crooks like ACORN break laws left and right and all their crooks wall free, not to mention deciding who will or WILL NOT run PRIVATE business. THEY HAVE NO RIGHT IN PRIVATE BUSINESSES..........that is illegal!!!! What about this do people not get???!!!!!!
YOUR government is trying to shut up anyone who does not agree with them and these tea parties are very telling about how UNHAPPY and downright ANGRY this country is with his administration right now!!! And believe me, he couldn't care less! For all those that couldn't care less about what he is doing to your country, wailt until you can't FIND your paycheck, let alone pay a bill with it. Show me where all that money is you thought you were going to get!? I mean the working class, not the freeloading losers!!! You don't see a bigger check do you? With the cap and trade going full force, you will be lucky to even keep your utilities on....
AND the Obama administration has now spoke of "investigating" anyone THEY think doesn't agree with them, calling themn "extremists"! Those of us who saw this coming tried to tell you he WOULD do this but all the O lovers said no, that's not what he means.......... BULL, that's exactly what he is about to do. Someone needs to remind all the O lovers this is their country and your government can't LEGALLY investigate you or shut you up just because you don't like their policies and speak out!!!
WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!! Stop thinking none of this affects you......... it affects ALL of you!!!
And this surprises you coming
from a man who is making millions of money off of global warming when it is still highly denounced by some scientists? LOL! Gore is a joke...a big FAT joke who preaches about global warming and then gets in his private jet and flies off into the skies.
Keep coming back to this however...
Though I don't agree with the murder of this man and I certainly don't agree with him murdering unborn babies by the thousands, I can't help but wonder how much "suffering" his wife or children went through for decades knowing her husband murdered babies while they "suffered" violent deaths, all the while reaping the benefits of his profession with her lifestyle. A lot of questions come to my mind about "suffering" in this case....
The ultimate hypocrisy coming from you! nm
This crises was coming way before Bush
While I'm sick of it too the oil situation has been coming to a head for a long time. A good part of it is due to the fact that the environmentalists have blocked the building of new refineries and have blocked drilling in the desolate wasteland of ANWR which is projected to have billions of barrels of oil. The sole responsibility of our current gas prices is not due to the war but due to multiple factors which have not been addressed over the last several years, and the blatant blocking tactics of environmentalists.
And the witty comebacks just keep on coming....sm
unfortunately.
They're coming home to
Again, were coming from different points of view
You are right, we could argue until we're blue in the face. No man, except for Jesus Christ, has ever been perfect, and that's the point. Man is his own downfall everytime. That's because of sin. Christians, Jews, pagans, Hindus, Muslims etc. etc. all have the same problem, and it's sin. Until we leave the Earthly realm man is never free of it, but Jesus paid the price for it. Yes, I believe the Word of God is inerrant. I feel you have to believe it all or not at all. It's either right or wrong. I don't expect you to see it the same way, but I can assure you I haven't drank the Kool-Aid. I have read many, many different historical and Christian writings. I highly recommend the book The Case for Christ about a atheist who took a year to research Christianity before making a decision whether or not to accept it. Also, another good book is I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist (from your writings it doesn't sound like you're an Atheist though) Ultimately though it comes down to a leap of Faith. The definition of faith is believing in something I cannot see. It's hard for me not to look at nature without seeing God's hand all over it, and as the Bible says, The Heavens declare His Glory.
I have enjoyed our debate, but I am moving on...
Well you had to know the threats were coming next from this bunch..nm
Bush says terrorists are coming again. sm
Well, he should know. 
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Bush_says_terrorists_are_coming_again_0915.html
I wonder if they're coming before the election or after. (NT)
;-)
The crazies are coming out of the woodwork.
Some nut has taken 2 Hillary volunteers hostage in her office in New Hampshire.
The only "hatred" was coming from Rev. Wright,
nm
I understand where you're coming from and
xx
This coming from the same person who buried us
nm
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