Here's a topic for discussion
Posted By: Query on 2009-04-18
In Reply to:
Leaving criminal penalties out of the equation: Is it immoral to break the law?
What if you consider the law immoral (such as, for example, segregation)? What if you consider integration immoral? How much does individual conscience have to do with this? Easy to say someone else's conscience is in error, but they are saying the same about yours.
Some people try to short their taxes because the money goes to fund a war they do not believe in (there's usually one going on) or to fund abortions, or medical research they abhor, and now to bail out failed businesses and individual mortgages. I think everyone could find something that's funded by our tax money objectionable. How much are we morally required to render unto Caesar?
It's illegal to overstay a parking meter. Is it also immoral if you did it intentionally, simply because you've violated a law? How about sliding through a red light at 3 a.m. on a deserted country road when you could not possibly injure anyone?
If it's legal to raise rent past a tenant's ability to pay, is it also moral? What if this makes them homeless?
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McCain's cross in the dirt story he tells now -- history of:
how similar the McCain story is to that offered by Soviet dissident Alexander Solzhenitsen and then later popularized by Christian leaders Chuck Colson and Billy Graham. Sullivan also points out other suspicious changes:
The story changed from the guard using a sandal to the guard using a stick.
At Saddleback, McCain talked about a single guard being the protagonist. The same guard loosened his ropes and then later sketchd the cross in the dirt. In McCain's 1999 book, these were two different guards at two different prison camps.
McCain's first writings about his time in captivity didn't mention the story at all, so he's asked his readers for evidence of McCain offering that story prior to his 1999 book (when he was gearing up for a presidential run).
Several contributors to the comment thread on my first post have pointed to this rather stunning New York Times piece from 2000 in which McCain tells the story but about someone else!
Many years ago a scared American prisoner of war in Vietnam was tied in torture ropes by his tormentors and left alone in an empty room to suffer through the night. Later in the evening a guard he had never spoken to entered the room and silently loosened the ropes to relieve his suffering. Just before morning, that same guard came back and re-tightened the ropes before his less humanitarian comrades returned. He never said a word to the grateful prisoner, but some months later, on a Christmas morning, as the prisoner stood alone in the prison courtyard, the same good Samaritan walked up to him and stood next to him for a few moments. Then with his sandal, the guard drew a cross in the dirt. Both prisoner and guard both stood wordlessly there for a minute or two, venerating the cross, until the guard rubbed it out and walked away.
A little off topic...sm
TO ALL THE KIDS
WHO SURVIVED the
40's, 50's, 60's and 70's !!
First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they were pregnant.
They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes.
Then after that trauma, we were put to sleep on our tummies in baby cribs covered with bright colored lead-based paints.
We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we
rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking.
As infants & children, we would ride in cars with no car seats, booster seats, seat belts or air bags.
Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a special treat.
We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle.
We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and
NO ONE actually died from this.
We ate cupcakes, white bread and real butter and drank koolade made with sugar, but we weren't overweight because .
WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on.
No one was able to reach us all day.
And we were O.K.
We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down
the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.
We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 150 channels on cable, no video movies or DVD's, no surround-sound or CD's, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or chat rooms..........
WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!
We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no
lawsuits from these accidents.
We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.
We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays,
made up games with sticks and tennis balls and, although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang
the bell, or just walked in and talke! d to them!
Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!
The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of.
They actually sided with the law!
These generations have produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever!
The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned
HOW TO
DEAL WITH IT ALL!
If YOU are one of them . . . CONGRATULATIONS!
You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as
kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated so much of our lives
for our own good.
And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave (and lucky) their parents were.
Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it?!
what topic would you like us
to discuss? I'm open to discussion.
off topic but.
regarding that burial arrangement.. In much of Europe burial plots are "rented." You can only stay buried there as long as someone continues to pay the rent. It is a "duty" that gets handed down generation to generation. If there is no one paying your yearly rent, they dig you up and you go to the common area, which is oftentimes not even actually burial. Many cemetaries have a kind of holding area that is just full of the bones that remain from the people who were removed from the burial sites for non-payment.
Nothing to say on the topic?
Yawn.
I was the OP of that particular topic.
I do believe that I stated below that I am not one of the irresponsible people who got us in this mess. My husband and I pay our bills and our mortgage. I know the government won't pay off my mortgage. It was wishful thinking and playfulness. That is why I encouraged others to think about what they could buy if they didn't have their mortgage to pay each month. I'm sorry but you have taken it WAY out of context and blown it WAY out of proportion. I don't expect any one to pay my bills but me and I certainly don't want my money going to irresponsible people either.
Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if the government would reward responsible people for once instead of continually giving more money to crooked politicians and crooked rich people and constantly giving to irresponsible people. What do honest, hard-working Americans get in return for their hard work......we are asked to give more of our money to the government so they can spend it well on Pelosi's mice and other porky things in a stimulous package that will not work.
BTW, you assumed that I'm a pub. When it comes down to it....I'm a middle of the road kind of person. I agree some with one side and some with another. So don't stereotype me as a pub and call me a hypocrit. It was wishful thinking and playfulness and you turned it into this huge issue when it should not have been.
Try less caffeine and maybe some yoga for stress relief.
I am the OP of that topic.
I pay my bills. I pay my mortgage. I expect no one to pay my bills for me. I was suggesting the government paying off my mortgage for me in a playful manner. That is why I encouraged others to think of things they could buy if they didn't have to pay their mortgage every month. You assume that I am a pub obviously or you would not have attacked my playful topic and called me a hypocrit. Well, I am not a pub. I am a middle of the road kind of person who can see some points on both sides of the fence. So stop stereotyping me and please reduce your caffeine intake and learn to take a playful topic as that....just for fun. 
If that is all you got out of this discussion, please, do bow out.
As I see from your other posts you just tend to step in and make random irrational comments, I'm sorry I even replied to your post.
Note to gt......off topic
It's me - the one who's been posting under all the gt alias joke monikers. I just had to blow off steam after the conservative board debacle last night. Don't know why I get involved in it. My fall equinox resolution will be to inform, not condemn.
Thanks for tolerating my not-that-funny-ha-ha little joke.
Kind of off topic
Do any of you ever watch subtitle South Korean shows? Out here in CA, we have a channel that is for mainly Indian/Asian shows and I gotta tell ya, I have gotten to like the South Korean mini series..they last about 18 shows, twice a week..They are so good and have made me understand the Asian culture so much..I have a Japanese friend and I was astonished when I went to her home, you take your shoes off and sit on the floor for eating, sleep on the floor..all the things I thought were in the past..Plus, a big bonus, at least I think so, Asian guys are so cute. Hey, conservatives, if you are gonna attack me for this post, save it..okay? IMO, learning about others will keep us alive and not bombing each other.
I like Obama, but everything is a topic
There has always been scandal and there always will be because we're all human. I think Obama wants us to think he's "not involved" and does not promote it, which I'm sure he doesn't, but you can't think that he's not liking the negative attention casted towards that party rather than his. This has become something big (baby mama drama) in this country. It's everywhere. I think Maury Povich does a show every day on it doesn't he? Paternity testing and such... It's in our world and there's no turning our backs on it.
This should be the #1 topic on this board. sm
The Fed is responsible for this whole mess. They will also profit from it like they have been since 1913. The currency controllers have control over everything including the 2 puppets starring in the current horse and pony show.
Another good video to watch for those that do not understand our very corrupt system is Money as Debt. Here is the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
I'm with you and hope to keep a topic like this going. sm
America is sick, someone please call a doctor.
One way to make the topic go away
is to stop responding to it. Does it occur to you you're giving it a lot more power than it probably deserves to have?
O is not the article topic.
Or just trying to avoid it all together? Once you read it, you might be able to at least grasp the main idea.
I am used to the lame smears and all the pathos that surrounds those who hurl them. They don't work. Even the more intelligent among the pubs are beginning to see that, but I guess it takes longer for others to catch on.
You really can't stay on topic, can you?
It might help you focus a bit better.
Forget the topic I did...LOL. nm
I was just going to post on this very topic -
Not only are these companies getting our tax money to cover their irresponsible and greedy butts, but they are not even paying in their taxes!
It really burns me up - if I owed that money they would be all over me - potentially a crime - my butt would be sitting in prison!!!
you are also competely off topic,
I never 'flashed' my IQ, I just 'mentioned' it once.
I only reacted to 'infantile and small-brained' comments.
Spare yourself your moral lectures, if you want to preach, do it in church.
What exactly is illogical, and where was the discussion?
There certainly *is* a feral element on the right that will attack anyone viciously if it serves their purposes - nothing is sacred to them - and they don't respect "logic" any more than they respect the mothers of deceased soliders. I've spent years talking to these people. It took me a long time to reluctantly come to the conclusion that you can't reason with them because they don't respect reason. You can't find common ground because they don't want to share any ground - they want it all. You can't speak to them in a sincere way because they will take that as a sign of weakness and attack you all the harder. You can't deal with them fairly and expect to be treated fairly in return - they will lie at the drop of a hat. Their intention is not to be tolerant of others but to crush any dissent and run smear campaigns against those who are not "like" them. Now that's just my experience with this specific element on the right. It's just my opinion but it's far from illogical to draw conclusions from many years of personal experience. If you are a progressive, may you have better luck than I in trying to find a human face amongst that particular element I'm referring to. If you are a Republican and you actually want to discuss something, it seems like there are plenty of people here including me who would be willing to discuss an issue without getting personal. But no matter who you are, don't expect me or anyone else who's had my experience with the ugly among the right to parse their words or try to be falsely sweet and forgiving toward a specific group of people who are just flat downright dangerous and despicable, and don't deserve to be kid-gloved.
I really enjoyed the discussion, as well.
It was nice to have a peaceful discussion with differing viewpoints. Peace to you, too.
Could you please take your discussion to your own board
PLEASE.
This is the liberal board, or at least that what it says. I don't understand why you guys have taken it over.
This discussion is about where Bush was and was not.
Ignored the most devastating natural disaster in recent US history.
I think they had a family discussion ...
and they decided as a family to go forward. And this would not be an issue had there are those judgmental among us who decided to make it one. In this day and time for the Dems here, of ALL People, to act all holier-than-thou and act like being pregnant not married still carries some kind of stigma just stinks to high heaven. These same people who have told us to go back to our churches and not push our morality on them. The hypocrisy is staggering. The very people they called judgmental are the ones surrounding this family to support them, not ostracizing them like they had announced their daughter was a pedophile or a serial killer.
I would put the judgment here much MORE in question than Sarah Palin's, and I think a lot of people out there in America whose lives this very thing has touched will do the same.
And I would say that regardless of what party affiliation she has too. If that was a Democrat running for VP and people wre bashing her in this way I would be yelling foul just as loud.
It just amazes me the depths some will sink to for political purposes. INcluding fileting a 17-year-old. Just because her mother made the announcement did not mean poeple were obligated to attack..that was a choice and it taking that choice says a lot about character...or the screaming lack thereof.
we are having a mature discussion
about politics and religion, please do not start posting useless dribble. Thank you.
a "mature" discussion about
seeing black men run through the house, black arms coming out from under the bed, and several people talking to Jesus in the flesh? Okay then. I will bow out.
Don't read too much into this discussion. It just happens...sm
to be the news of the day. I do find it amusing though that her clothes came from the stores that they did. NM has $3000 handbags, etc, very HIGH prices and she probably only got a few outfits for the RNC's $150,000. I am sure that she didn't choose to get her wardrobe from these stores. She was probably staying in a hotel and the repub bigwigs called the department stores and told them what to bring over and what size, charge it to us. They were molding her to what they wanted her to be in order to get votes. It backfired. I actually feel sorry for her now. I hope she gets to keep her new clothes. She will probably be glad to get back to Alaska and out of the lower 48.
No, actually I'm not begging for discussion..
I am simply pointing out diversity. I've seen numerous posts on here from christians, and I really don't feel a need to debate their religion every time I see it. In fact, I respect other's opinions and beliefs, especially when they are willing to express them.....something you should try.
haven't been following this discussion at all BUT
isn't that calling the kettle black? I only clicked on this message cause it was the latest posted one... and after reading it i go... um excuse me... did you EVER given the current administration a break? for ANYTHING? And i dont want to hear they did this and this and this and this. that's fine, people were against them from the beginning too. This happens on BOTH sides, why doesn't everyone agree that there are hypocrites on each side!!! that is hypocritical in itself when you ALWAYS point fingers at the other side! Differing opinions is one thing, but to say that the RIGHT cant give this government a break? Well that's because they OPPOSE what it is they stand for! just like the left opposes what the right stands for!!!!
You call that discussion?
By definition, a discussion is give and take. An informed opinion on a complex issue takes more than a snarky one-liner on a subject line. It's really easy to define an opinion with which you disagree as "endless babble."
Besides, message boards are lousy places to have a true discussion about anything.
I thought the discussion was
for employees to have their health benefits taxed as income.
As noted in a discussion below about this...(sm)
I don't care what his views are or what he is. What I do care about his what he teaches kids. Sending them to his conservative website for homework in my opinion is way out of line.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the language used by the poster above, which is what I was talking about before you tried to change the subject, as usual.
Why is this discussion over - Ive been away for awhile and,
So why is this topic now closed?
Can you manage to squeeze in one more topic? ....
.
Voting....I posted on that topic before...sm
A blue voter in a red state and vice versa, their vote does not count with the electoral college. That's why I support going to the popular vote.
I, for one, am glad this topic was brought up
You NEVER hear about this on the news. For most people, hearing about how much children are suffering would take the fire out of their battle cry real fast. I agree that a bullet shot by a 15 year old kills just as readily as one fired by an adult. But how do you blame a child for acting out in the only way it knows how? These kids do not know any other way. You cannot, however, go to these kids and tell them that the way they know is WRONG, you have to show the child there are other ways to do things and let THEM decide. Again, shoving ideals and religions down their throats will only make the situation worse.
It is unbelievably important that we leave these kids with the a better impression of America. They are the future of the Middle East and if there is ever going to be peace, those kids are the key.
Totally off topic...please read....sm
I don't know much about Suzanne Somers, but I have to admire someone who took her own health into her own hands when she was battling her breast cancer.
She has this new book out, and she talks about diet soda, the chemicals in it, killing off neurons in your brain.
Please be careful if you or anyone else drinks a lot of this. I stopped it years ago, although I won't give up my coffee...lol.....
I really think microwaves can't be good for you either, as they change the cells of your food, which in turn, change your blood cells for several hours after....
Anyhoo, here's a site on her new book, that discusses it briefly. Just FYI.
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item33808/Breakthrough-Eight-Steps-To-Wellness.html
And I do apologize if I insulted you or anyone this morning. I really didn't intend to, although it was given right back to me as if I did....lol....some days...oy vey....
Anyway...please read if you want.....I'd love a cheeto, though, haven't had those in years.......and boy they were good, weren't they (messy too!)
Let's keep topic politics and keep religion out of it.
nm
P.S. I'm "done with da dish" when it comes to this topic.
Go find someone else to play with.
Did you have a comment on topic? If so, please make it.
HINT: I am not the topic.
So much for logical discussion between right and left.
/
I see. I saw in a discussion about Bruce on Netscape.nm
z
Bashing and discussion are two different things. sm
Evidently the moderator agrees, as she hasn't paid a visit to the boards.
Question regarding the abortion discussion below??
This question is mainly for anti abortion advocates. What would you do in a situation where you were found to be pregnant, but it was found to be an ectopic pregnancy? Would you terminate the pregnancy, or carry it to conclusion, whatever that conclusion may be? Thanks for any replies.
Discussion from Gab Board re Pres.
"First... I don't claim him. I think he's a tyrant to put it nicely and I think he is a warmonging hillbilly (and that's sad for the hillbillies because they are decent folk he gives a bad name). I told everyone not to vote for him last time... I tried to warn them. I didn't want him and he hasn't done anything to help me our my friends and family in the slightest, except make us look ridiculous on the international stage (which I can say because I live in Europe at the moment and I know how foolish they think us right now). Second, good for you. Maybe you should vote for McCain so that the pain (errr I mean pleasure) never ends. I bet the people that he's been against and not fought for (i.e., Katrina victims, Iowa flood victims, homosexuals, people with diseases that stem cell reasearch could help, innocent people in far off lands that lost family members and friends who were innocent victims) I bet they all share your same sentiments.. right? You can have him.. I bet right about now he's half price on the discount rack anyways! Third... you should be grateful she put "creatrue." Its probably how Bush spells and says it, so its a true representation. Fourth... I think the last time I checked it was a free country with free speech and allowed for people to have their own opinions. I have better names to call him than childish ones... but I won't use them since your so easily offended... are you his personal emotional filter? I doubt he cares what the American people call him... he's certainly proven he doesn't care what they think or how they feel... so why should we care about him? Thanks back atcha. I can have whatever opinion I want of the president and I can tell you, I am more the majority than you are."
Moving over here per Mod request.......
Of course you can have your opinion about President Bush. I was just saying that the names are uncalled for. Are you staying in Europe forever or are you planning on coming back to the U.S.? Just curious.
President Bush isn't perfect and there have been many mistakes, I do agree. I did vote for him and agree with the vast majority of his conservative views. I do plan on voting for John McCain in November. But, if Obama is our next president, as much as I disagree with his views, I wouldn't call him names; but that's just me I guess.
I do not envy anyone who is willing to take on the gigantic role of running the country. I would not want the job in a million years. I have respect for ANYONE, republican or democrat, who is ready and willing to take on this great responsibility.
I still would like to know what a creatrue is and President Bush is NOT retarded.
This discussion kind of reminds me of the ...sm
election of 1960, Nixon/Kennedy. Everyone was saying Nixon is a God. He has the most experience. No way John Kennedy is qualified to be president. Then came the first debate, and the rest is history. No teleprompter needed for either JFK or Obama. Their vision for America was/is enough to light the world.
yeah, so what, you aren't following the whole discussion
nm
Not trying to start a religious discussion here, but
being on its knees is exactly what this country needs. 
So there has to be a discussion of posts for it to be relevant?
what a stupid, anonymous comment
You really don't want to start this discussion, Sparky
x
Our public education system, somewhat off topic.
I have heard so much about our education system and I'm sure some of it is true. However, I would like to relay a recent experience I had......
Living in a small community that is loaded with history, I and a couple of other "older" ladies hosted the local 4th and 5th grades on a field trip regarding the history of a couple of landmarks.......anyone interested can visit my website http://www.ozarkmountainmemories.com and read about them.
I was to do the historical presentation on the Cane Hill College Building. My good friend was to do the presentation on the Old Mill. Before I knew that there were 212 students plus teachers and parents, I opened my big mouth and said I would make cookies and Kool-Aid for the kid's field trip. I ended up having a lot of help there!!!
Both my friend and I were very apprehensive about this field trip. Well, I want to tell you that those were the best behaved kids I have seen in a long time. This field trip was to prepare them to write an essay for the Arkansas Historical Society. They were attentive and, asked very pertinent and intelligent questions.
One of the teachers called me yesterday and said that she was going to bring me some of the essays the kids had written. She read one to me and it started out with "You may think the Cane Hill College is just a 2-story brick building...." and the student proceeded to write what I would consider a very excellent essay. I will post some of these on my website when I have them in hand.
I might also say that there were a good many parents present for the field trip. I came away from that field trip with a whole different perspective on the local school, which is reputed to be one of the worst school districts in the state with the highest teen pregnancy rate. I think if these 4th and 5th graders continue through high school with teachers such as I met and parents who are involved in their education, each and every one of them will be just A-okay.
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