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I would suspect that Peggy Johnson

Posted By: Marmann on 2008-11-12
In Reply to: I have to wonder at your statement... sm - m

is in for a RUDE awakening. 


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Peggy Joseph - in her words

"I won't have to work"


http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=L6ikOxi9yYk&feature=related


Gee - maybe we should all quit if Obama is just going to give us all a check for doing nothing.


I took that as Peggy feels the economy is going to

to finally not to worry about how she will put gas in her car and how she will pay her mortage.  I highly doubt Peggy is looking for a free ride.  She's looking for an answer. 


Again, this is all left up to interpretation of how you feel about Peggy's comment.  Typical pubs will bash Peggy because they think they'll have to pay Peggy's mortgage, which is wrong.


There are already programs in place, i.e., welfare, section 8 housing, etc.  Why does the government helping those in need surprise everyone at this point?  I'll tell you why because the republicans have managed to smear Obama's plan and that's all they've got.  The same old plans of Bush is what they have; that's it.  Oh, wait they Governor Palin; yeah she's intelligent enough to fix anything with her overspending and "fixing of the books." 


I don't think the good 'ole USA needs more "fixed books" to suit the suits.  I'm off my soapbox now I guess.


I can't believe how many people on here honestly believe that Barack Obama is going to just let people have free gas and free homes.  That's absurd.     That doesn't grow the economy. 


See the article I posted above by Peggy Noonan.

She talks about Bush's out of control spending, and she's no liberal!


Bush cut OIL COMPANY PROFITS?  Yeah... right!  Time of crisis or not, they don't care.  I'm no O'Reilly fan, but O'Reilly publicly challenged the oil companies on his show to just voluntarily take a small reduction in PROFITS during this time.  Ain't gonna happen.


For all the conservative posts on our board, I haven't seen ONE who can explain who is going to PAY for all Bush's spending.  I pity the poor person who is the next President and inherits Bush's huge MESS.  If (hopefully) it's a Democrat, you can bet the necons will be trashing him/her from the git-go, calling him/her atheist, drunk, and whatever other libel they invent between now and then.


I'm working as hard as I can because my daughter and her husband won't be able to afford to heat their home this coming winter.  There is no way I'm going to let my grandchildren, daughter and son-in-law freeze, and I'm going to try to help out as much as I can.


I've read where some of the most radical whacko evangelicals with a direct pipeline (no pun) to God blamed Katrina on lack of morals of people in New Orleans.  In the light of Rita, seems to me that God's actually targeting the people controlling the oil rigs.  Maybe God's warning that if we don't quit coveting and trying to steal oil from the Middle East's Gulf, God's going to send in a really BIG storm to destroy the oil rigs in America's Gulf.  Maybe it's God's way of telling Bush that Bush isn't listening to what God has been telling him, that we need to protect and take care of our own, and stop lying and murdering and killing for his own personal gain and that of his cronies.


Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I become very angry at the thought of my family freezing this winter (even though they work hard and are/were considered middle class).  Hopefully, I will be able to help so that doesn't happen, but what about all the other families with children out there?  What happened to conservative family values?  They obviously don't exist if a school choose to CLOSE to conserve fuel, and oil companies keep right on churning and collecting huge profits.


Just like you, I truly hope a revolution is churning.  Someone has to start caring about regular, hard-working, underinsured or uninsured people in this country.  These are the people who are the backbone of this country, the people who do the REAL work, while the fat cats (Bush's base) sit back and get fatter and fatter with Bush's blessings!


I took it as Peggy wants a handout and Obama is her savior..nm
//
Truman was decent, Johnson was not. sm
Johnson was not even liked by his own party.  In fact, there were many conspiracy theories amont the DEMOCRATS that he had something to do with Kennedy's death.  Kennedy, despite his personal life, was one of the best presidents we ever had.  Truman and Kennedy and even Johnson were real Democrats, not like those of today. 
*Whatever It Takes* by Peggy Noonan re: Bush's out of control spending

 


WSJ.com OpinionJournal



Warning: This is a L-O-N-G article, written by a conservative former speech writer for both President Reagan and Bush's daddy. The condensed version for the conservative trolls with admitted limited attention span:  Bush is a very UNconservative BIG SPENDER with no means or concern how all this will be repaid.  In other words, he represents the complete ANTITHESIS (opposite) of conservative values that you all claim to have.  I guess that's what happens when you elect a spoiled, rich kid who was born to privilege and never had to worry about paying for anything.


PEGGY NOONAN


'Whatever It Takes'
Is Bush's big spending a bridge to nowhere?

Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:01 a.m.

George W. Bush, after five years in the presidency, does not intend to get sucker-punched by the Democrats over race and poverty. That was the driving force behind his Katrina speech last week. He is not going to play the part of the cranky accountant--But where's the money going to come from?--while the Democrats, in the middle of a national tragedy, swan around saying Republicans don't care about black people, and They're always tightwads with the poor.


In his Katrina policy the president is telling Democrats, You can't possibly outspend me. Go ahead, try. By the time this is over Dennis Kucinich will be crying uncle, Bernie Sanders will be screaming about pork.

That's what's behind Mr. Bush's huge, comforting and boondogglish plan to spend $200 billion or $100 billion or whatever--whatever it takes--on Katrina's aftermath. And, I suppose, tomorrow's hurricane aftermath.


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George W. Bush is a big spender. He has never vetoed a spending bill. When Congress serves up a big slab of fat, crackling pork, Mr. Bush responds with one big question: Got any barbecue sauce? The great Bush spending spree is about an arguably shrewd but ultimately unhelpful reading of history, domestic politics, Iraq and, I believe, vanity.


This, I believe, is the administration's shrewd if unhelpful reading of history: In a 50-50 nation, people expect and accept high spending. They don't like partisan bickering, there's nothing to gain by arguing around the edges, and arguing around the edges of spending bills is all we get to do anymore. The administration believes there's nothing in it for the Republicans to run around whining about cost. We will spend a lot and the Democrats will spend a lot. But the White House is more competent and will not raise taxes, so they believe Republicans win on this one in the long term.

Domestic politics: The administration believes it is time for the Republican Party to prove to the minority groups of the United States, and to those under stress, that the Republicans are their party, and not the enemy. The Democrats talk a good game, but Republicans deliver, and we know the facts. A lot of American families are broken, single mothers bringing up kids without a father come to see the government as the guy who'll help. It's right to help and we don't lose by helping.

Iraq: Mr. Bush decided long ago--I suspect on Sept. 12, 2001--that he would allow no secondary or tertiary issue to get in the way of the national unity needed to forge the war on terror. So no fighting with Congress over who put the pork in the pan. Cook it, eat it, go on to face the world arm in arm.

As for vanity, the president's aides sometimes seem to see themselves as The New Conservatives, a brave band of brothers who care about the poor, unlike those nasty, crabbed, cheapskate conservatives of an older, less enlightened era.


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Republicans have grown alarmed at federal spending. It has come to a head not only because of Katrina but because of the huge pork-filled highway bill the president signed last month, which comes with its own poster child for bad behavior, the Bridge to Nowhere. The famous bridge in Alaska that costs $223 million and that connects one little place with two penguins and a bear with another little place with two bears and a penguin. The Bridge to Nowhere sounds, to conservative ears, like a metaphor for where endless careless spending leaves you. From the Bridge to the 21st Century to the Bridge to Nowhere: It doesn't feel like progress.


A lot of Bush supporters assumed the president would get serious about spending in his second term. With the highway bill he showed we misread his intentions.

The administration, in answering charges of profligate spending, has taken, interestingly, to slighting old conservative hero Ronald Reagan. This week it was the e-mail of a high White House aide informing us that Ronald Reagan spent tons of money bailing out the banks in the savings-and-loan scandal. This was startling information to Reaganites who remembered it was a fellow named George H.W. Bush who did that. Last month it was the president who blandly seemed to suggest that Reagan cut and ran after the attack on the Marine barracks in Lebanon.

Poor Reagan. If only he'd been strong he could have been a good president.

Before that, Mr. Mehlman was knocking previous generations of Republican leaders who just weren't as progressive as George W. Bush on race relations. I'm sure the administration would think to criticize the leadership of Bill Clinton if they weren't so busy having jolly mind-melds with him on Katrina relief. Mr. Clinton, on the other hand, is using his new closeness with the administration to add an edge of authority to his slams on Bush. That's a pol who knows how to do it.

At any rate, Republican officials start diminishing Ronald Reagan, it is a bad sign about where they are psychologically. In the White House of George H.W. Bush they called the Reagan administration the pre-Bush era. See where it got them.

Sometimes I think the Bush White House needs to be told: It's good to be a revolutionary. But do you guys really need to be opening up endless new fronts? Do you need--metaphor switch--seven or eight big pots boiling on the stove all at the same time? You think the kitchen and the house might get a little too hot that way?

The Republican (as opposed to conservative) default position when faced with criticism of the Bush administration is: But Kerry would have been worse! The Democrats are worse! All too true. The Democrats right now remind me of what the veteran political strategist David Garth told me about politicians. He was a veteran of many campaigns and many campaigners. I asked him if most or many of the politicians he'd worked with had serious and defining political beliefs. David thought for a moment and then said, Most of them started with philosophy. But they wound up with hunger. That's how the Democrats seem to me these days: unorganized people who don't know what they stand for but want to win, because winning's pleasurable and profitable.

But saying The Bush administration is a lot better than having Democrats in there is not an answer to criticism, it's a way to squelch it. Which is another Bridge to Nowhere.


hspace=0


Mr. Bush started spending after 9/11. Again, anything to avoid a second level fight that distracts from the primary fight, the war on terror. That is, Mr. Bush had his reasons. They were not foolish. At the time they seemed smart. But four years later it is hard for a conservative not to protest. Some big mistakes have been made.


First and foremost Mr. Bush has abandoned all rhetorical ground. He never even speaks of high spending. He doesn't argue against it, and he doesn't make the moral case against it. When forced to spend, Reagan didn't like it, and he said so. He also tried to cut. Mr. Bush seems to like it and doesn't try to cut. He doesn't warn that endless high spending can leave a nation tapped out and future generations hemmed in. In abandoning this ground Bush has abandoned a great deal--including a primary argument of conservatism and a primary reason for voting Republican. And who will fill this rhetorical vacuum? Hillary Clinton. She knows an opening when she sees one, and knows her base won't believe her when she decries waste.

Second, Mr. Bush seems not to be noticing that once government spending reaches a new high level it is very hard to get it down, even a little, ever. So a decision to raise spending now is in effect a decision to raise spending forever.

Third, Mr. Bush seems not to be operating as if he knows the difficulties--the impossibility, really--of spending wisely from the federal level. Here is a secret we all should know: It is really not possible for a big federal government based in Washington to spend completely wisely, constructively and helpfully, and with a sense of personal responsibility. What is possible is to write the check. After that? In New Jersey they took federal Homeland Security funds and bought garbage trucks. FEMA was a hack-stack.

The one time a Homeland Security Department official spoke to me about that crucial new agency's efforts, she talked mostly about a memoir she was writing about a selfless HS official who tries to balance the demands of motherhood against the needs of a great nation. When she finally asked for advice on homeland security, I told her that her department's Web page is nothing but an advertisement for how great the department is, and since some people might actually turn to the site for help if their city is nuked it might be nice to offer survival hints. She took notes and nodded. It alarmed me that they needed to be told the obvious. But it didn't surprise me.

Of the $100 billion that may be spent on New Orleans, let's be serious. We love Louisiana and feel for Louisiana, but we all know what Louisiana is, a very human state with rather particular flaws. As Huey Long once said, Some day Louisiana will have honest government, and they won't like it. We all know this, yes? Louisiana has many traditions, and one is a rich and unvaried culture of corruption. How much of the $100 billion coming its way is going to fall off the table? Half? OK, let's not get carried away. More than half.

Town spending tends to be more effective than county spending. County spending tends--tends--to be more efficacious than state spending. State spending tends to be more constructive than federal spending. This is how life works. The area closest to where the buck came from is most likely to be more careful with the buck. This is part of the reason conservatives are so disturbed by the gushing federal spigot.

Money is power. More money for the federal government and used by the federal government is more power for the federal government. Is this good? Is this what energy in the executive is--Here's a check? Are the philosophical differences between the two major parties coming down, in terms of spending, to Who's your daddy? He's not your daddy, I'm your daddy. Do we want this? Do our kids? Is it safe? Is it, in its own way, a national security issue?


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At a conservative gathering this summer the talk turned to high spending. An intelligent young journalist observed that we shouldn't be surprised at Mr. Bush's spending, he ran from the beginning as a compassionate conservative. The journalist noted that he'd never liked that phrase, that most conservatives he knew had disliked it, and I agreed. But conservatives understood Mr. Bush's thinking: they knew he was trying to signal to those voters who did not assume that conservatism held within it sympathy and regard for human beings, in fact springs from that sympathy and regard.


But conservatives also understood compassionate conservatism to be a form of the philosophy that is serious about the higher effectiveness of faith-based approaches to healing poverty--you spend prudently not to maintain the status quo, and not to avoid criticism, but to actually make things better. It meant an active and engaged interest in poverty and its pathologies. It meant a new way of doing old business.

I never understood compassionate conservatism to mean, and I don't know anyone who understood it to mean, a return to the pork-laden legislation of the 1970s. We did not understand it to mean never vetoing a spending bill. We did not understand it to mean a historic level of spending. We did not understand it to be a step back toward old ways that were bad ways.

I for one feel we need to go back to conservatism 101. We can start with a quote from Gerald Ford, if he isn't too much of a crabbed and reactionary old Republican to quote. He said, A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.

The administration knows that Republicans are becoming alarmed. Its attitude is: We're having some trouble with part of the base but--smile--we can weather that.

Well, they probably can, short term.

Long term, they've had bad history with weather. It can change.


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Here are some questions for conservative and Republicans. In answering them, they will be defining their future party.


If we are going to spend like the romantics and operators of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society;

If we are going to thereby change the very meaning and nature of conservatism;

If we are going to increase spending and the debt every year;

If we are going to become a movement that supports big government and a party whose unspoken motto is Whatever it takes;

If all these things, shouldn't we perhaps at least discuss it? Shouldn't we be talking about it? Shouldn't our senators, congressmen and governors who wish to lead in the future come forward to take a stand?

And shouldn't the Bush administration seriously address these questions, share more of their thinking, assumptions and philosophy?

It is possible that political history will show, in time, that those who worried about spending in 2005 were dinosaurs. If we are, we are. But we shouldn't become extinct without a roar.

Ms. Noonan is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal and author of John Paul the Great: Remembering a Spiritual Father, forthcoming in November from Penguin, which you can preorder from the OpinionJournal bookstore. Her column appears Thursdays.

Copyright © 2005 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



 


I suspect
you probably are not familiar with workers' movements and do not keep up with their news....not typically available on mainstream media, talk radio, newspapers and the like. There are grass roots movements within smaller local unions that work tirelessly on behalf of their members. I do not accept your stereotype of unions. They have done much more good than harm for workers in this country.
I suspect that it is the
homosexuals who are getting "poked with pointy sticks." That's why they stay so cranky. -Poke-
This is suspect....(sm)

Note the communication blackouts.....


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31334054


Truman and Johnson both had sharp minds.

They may not have been polished but they could think on their own and put an entire sentence together all on their own. Truman, I believe, said **The buck stops here.*** Being a war time president, he took full responsibility for what was going on on his watch for which he was much admired, here and abroad. Johnson gave us civil rights. I did not much like Johnson personally but I admired what he did. He said **I have just given the south to the Republicans** when he signed civil rights into law, but, he had the courage of his convictions and did the right thing, control or no control, votes or no votes. I cannot say the same about the current administration. To them the buck stops anywhere but with them and they would do ANYTHING  to keep their party in control, sacrifice a few seats here and there in order to do the right thing, not in this lifetime, not if it means losing control.


Interesting you should mention 2 Democrats as unpolished but (I assume) decent presidents.


It IS important that our president can express himself well. We as a nation look more and more weakened because our leader does not read and  cannot produce a complete sentence to save his soul; and he was elected to be OUR president and the leader of the free world. What does that say about all of us. The more situations deteriorate the more inarticulate he becomes.  America has always been the mediator in the Middle East but this time, the Italians and the French OMG showed up first.  Norway and Greece were the first on the scene to move Americans out of Lebanon. When asked if they were surprised that the first to show up were not Americans, the Americans in Lebanon said ***NO, I mean, look at Katrina. We thought we would be here a long long time.***  I know that many on the right don't care what the world thinks of us but I do and I think it is always best to have allies. This administration just burns bridges. Scary Scary Stuff.


 


How many funerals did Johnson and Clinton attend.
Answer me that.  It is inappropriate because it seems you will use any tragedy to further your sad and disturbing hate for this president. I get that by reading these boards. 
somehow I suspect there is more to that story. nm
xx
Nope, how about Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkien? nm

Levi Johnson is not a political figure - take it to the gab board
He is not a political figure and neither is Bristol.

When you don't get your own way or can't argue with anything, you claim others are whining. Typical and embarrassing on your part. You have nothing to argue with to my other post so you say I'm whining????? I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

This topic is not about Sarah Palin or what she is doing in her job as Governor. It has nothing to do with the state of Alaska, and last I knew she and McCain lost, so you can't be whining about what they are doing on the campaign trail.

Oh here's a news flash for you since you don't know this yet. The elections are over. They ended on 11/04/08. Obama/Biden won and McCain/Palin lost - just so you'll know.

Let me repeat once again...

Levi Johnson...not in politics or a political figure...

Bristol Palin...not in politics or a political figure.

Please take the juvenile remarks about how happy you are that people are suffering to the gab board, and leave this board for valid political discussions. Actually I think you might have more fun on funsites.com/ki-teen or facebook. They have the age group there for this kind of discussion.

Get a grip!
I suspect it is just stress and fatigue. nm
.
Pretty weak - Johnson was a product of Texas politics,
....just like Bush, Rove, Delay, and a slew of other Suite F-8 Texans now strangling our democracy. Kennedy didn't like him, and Johnson went into fits of rage over his brother, Robert Kennedy, who he never referred to as anything but that son of a b****. Johnson was financed throughout his unstoppable career by Brown & Root (today KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton). Politically he was a far closer match to the current Republicans both in ideology and political technique (woo them with money, destroy them if they won't cooperate with the agenda, and remember to feed that war machine at every opportunity).

Johnson was a Democrat because 60 years ago that was the Texan standard. But, he paved the way for the current breed of southern Republicans to take control. It's no surprise that Johnson leapt right into Viet Nam or collaborated with people who wished to deceive and manipulate the American people - that is what these people do. Kennedy was the true Democrat - but that just wouldn't do for either Johnson or the rest of his political soulmates who are, of course, Republicans.
And I suspect half of it will end when you return to school --
as you claim you will be doing soon (I hope).
I suspect "Joe" is pretty happy
with the outcome of his 15-minutes of fame.  Probably won't have to worry about buying that "plumbing business" now. LOL
So tell me - what political office does Levi Johnson and Bristol Palin hold -sm
Answer: None. What contract did they sign? Answer: None. If they did sign a contract like you said they did, I'd like to see the paper with their signatures on it. This post has nothing to do with the job that Gov. Palin is doing. It has nothing to do with what she is doing in her office, politics, or for the people of Alaska. It is not talking about issues that affect our lives on a daily basis (like skyrocketing taxes, unemployment, people losing homes, etc). This post is about as juvenile as they come. Again you need to take this to the gab board or a website that speaks of such juvenile issues.

Last I knew Sarah Palin was not exploiting anything right now. She has gone back to Alaska and is no longer running for VP for an election that has ended. And if you want to talk about exploiting children lets talk about Biden and that grandson he grabbed up and held onto everytime a camera came into site. It was like watching George with Kuato attached to his chest from the movie Total Recall. Now that there is a crat prop if I ever saw one.

If you hate Palin so much then fine. At least have the decency to pick on her for something she did. Levi Johnson and Bristol Palin do not hold any political office and they did not sign any contracts so that they could be bashed and harrassed the rest of their lives.

You said it "if you are looking for a more intelligent read, I suggest you start reading comic books". So you even admit that your posts are less intelligent than comic books.

I would suggest you and others that want to continue this juvenile discussion there are still issues of Archie and Veronica and Veronica and Betty comic books out there you could read too.

As for non-political issues (i.e. Levi Johnson and Bristol Palin's personal lives) take it to the gab board or a teenager website where you could discuss til your hearts content. Leave this board for political discussions.

And give it a rest. We are sick of non-political issues on this board.
Former Head of Star Wars: Cheney Main 9/11 Suspect
Former Head Of Star Wars Program Says Cheney Main 9/11 Suspect
Official version of events a conspiracy theory, says drills were cover for attacks

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones/Prison Planet.com | April 4 2006

The former head of the Star Wars missile defense program under Presidents Ford and Carter has gone public to say that the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory and his main suspect for the architect of the attack is Vice President Dick Cheney.

Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman worked secretly for the US government on the Star Wars project and was the first to coin the very term in a 1977 secret memo. After Bowman realized that the program was only ever intended to be used as an aggressive and not defensive tool, as part of a plan to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviets, he left the program and campaigned against it.

In an interview with The Alex Jones Show aired nationally on the GCN Radio Network, Bowman (pictured below) stated that at the bare minimum if Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were involved in 9/11 then the government stood down and allowed the attacks to happen. He said it is plausible that the entire chain of military command were unaware of what was taking place and were used as tools by the people pulling the strings behind the attack.



Bowman outlined how the drills on the morning of 9/11 that simulated planes crashing into buildings on the east coast were used as a cover to dupe unwitting air defense personnel into not responding quickly enough to stop the attack.

The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact kind of thing that was happening so confused the people in the FAA and NORAD....that they didn't they didn't know what was real and what was part of the exercise, said Bowman

I think the people who planned and carried out those exercises, they're the ones that should be the object of investigation.

Asked if he could name a prime suspect who was the likely architect behind the attacks, Bowman stated, If I had to narrow it down to one person....I think my prime suspect would be Dick Cheney.

Bowman said that privately his military fighter pilot peers and colleagues did not disagree with his sentiments about the real story behind 9/11.

Bowman agreed that the US was in danger of slipping into a dictatorship and stated, I think there's been nothing closer to fascism than what we've seen lately from this government.

Bowman slammed the Patriot Act as having, Done more to destroy the rights of Americans than all of our enemies combined.



Bowman trashed the 9/11 Commission as a politically motivated cover-up with abounding conflicts of interest, charging, The 9/11 Commission omitted anything that might be the least bit suspicious or embarrassing or in any way detract from the official conspiracy so it was a total whitewash.

There needs to be a true investigation, not the kind of sham investigations we have had with the 9/11 omission and all the rest of that junk, said Bowman.

Asked if the perpetrators of 9/11 were preparing to stage another false-flag attack to reinvigorate their agenda Bowman agreed that, I can see that and I hope they can't pull it off, I hope they are prevented from pulling it off but I know darn good and well they'd like to have another one.

A mainstay of the attack pieces against Charlie Sheen have been that he is not credible enough to speak on the topic of 9/11. These charges are ridiculed by the fact that Sheen is an expert on 9/11 who spends hours a day meticulously researching the topic, something that the attack dogs have failed to do, aiming their comments solely at Sheen's personal life and ignoring his invitation to challenge him on the facts.

In addition, from the very start we have put forth eminently credible individuals only for them to be ignored by the establishment media. Physics Professors, former White House advisors and CIA analysts, the father of Reaganomics, German Defense Ministers and Bush's former Secretary of the Treasury, have all gone public on 9/11 but have been uniformly ignored by the majority of the establishment press.

Will Robert Bowman also be blackballed as the mainstream continue to misrepresent the 9/11 truth movement as an occupation of the fringe minority?

Bowman is currently running for Congress in Florida's 15th District.

---------------------------------

http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...mainsuspect.htm

I suspect the "sore spot" lies beneath the bonnet......nm
x