It's ok....cheap shots like that reflect worse on poster than on me. (nm)

• So much for McCains saying he represents change...sm - oldtimer
  • The other side of the coin.... - sam
    • You are wrong. Karl Rove is working FOR the McCain campaign. - Heard it on Fox news
      • He is not on their payroll that I am aware of.... - sam
        • I read on CNN (yes, I do read liberal stuff too..hehe)...sm - ms
          • I read this too after hearing that he had...sm - oldtimer
  • not to mention all the - Sunday
    • Don't think you really want to go there..... - another oldtimer
    • Obama has lobbyists on his campaign as well... - sam
      • Tell us about the "deals". nm - ??
        • Here is some...you can research for more yourself...there is plenty - sam
          • You should rename yourself to Timex - me
            • I can think of more fitting names for something you - cant seem to scrape off your shoe.
              • There you go - another disgusting liberal remark - me
                • It's ok....cheap shots like that reflect worse on poster than on me. (nm) - sam
                  • Regardless, it's still there, stuck on our shoes... - nm
                    • Regardless...still reflecting. nm - sam
                      • Still scraping. - ......

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Especially Reagan, but nothing new. 

The Chickenhawk argument goes something like this: anyone who favors military action should not be taken seriously unless they themselves are willing to go and do the actual fighting. This particular piece of work is an anti-war crowd attempt to silence the debate by ruling that the other side is out of bounds for the duration. Like all ad hominem attacks, (argumentum ad hominem means “argument against the person”) it is an act of intellectual surrender. The person who employs an ad hominem attack is admitting they cannot win the debate on merit, and hope to chuck the entire thing out the window by attacking the messenger. This is a logical fallacy of the first order, because the messenger is not the message.

The messenger is not the message. That’s all you need to throw away the entire Chickenhawk response. But why stop there when this one is so much fun?

If you are ever see this charge again, you may want to reflect that person’s own logical reasoning in the following fashion: You may not talk about education unless you are willing to become a teacher. You may not discuss poverty unless you yourself are willing to go and form a homeless shelter. How dare you criticize Congress unless you are willing to go out and get elected yourself? Your opinion on a National Health Care System is negated out of hand since you are unwilling to get a medical degree and open a clinic. And as far as your opinions regarding the Democratic Underground or The Huffington Post are concerned, well, you can just keep them to yourself, mister, unless you can produce an advanced degree in Abnormal Psychology and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Using the internal reasoning behind the Chickenhawk argument means you cannot comment on, speak about or even hold an opinion on any subject that is not part of your paying day job. It is simple-minded and profoundly anti-democratic, which is why it so deeply appeals to those who sling it around the most.

But wait! There’s more!

If you accept the Chickenhawk argument – that only those actually willing to go and fight have a legitimate opinion on the subject of war – then that means that any decision to go to war must rest exclusively in the hands of the military. Is that what this person really wants? To abandon civilian control of the military? That’s the box they have trapped themselves in with this argument. Now to be perfectly honest, I think Robert Heinlein made a very compelling case for just this line of reasoning in Starship Troopers (the book, not the clueless projected travesty). Heinlein said that the only people who should be allowed to vote are those that have served in the military, since only they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of the state. I don’t agree with that. I think civilian control of the military has been one of the pillars of our nation’s success, and it has withstood the test of both World Wars and Civil ones. But that is the world you are stuck in when you toss that little Chickenhawk grenade.

Finally, if the only legitimate opinion on Iraq, say, is that held by the troops themselves, then they are overwhelmingly in favor of being there and finishing what they started. I recently received an e-mail from an Army major who is heading back for his fourth tour. The Chickenhawk argument, coming from an anti-war commentator, legitimizes only those voices that overwhelmingly contradict the anti-war argument.

Bill Whittle wrote that. He's a real live veteran and I happen to agree with him.

the philosophy of the website, only one soldier's opinion, and actually after looking at the bulk of the soldiers' comments on this website, it is not indicative of the general sentiment presented.  That is what I meant by out of context. 

I just have a problem with folks taking bits and pieces of a news story, quote, website and presenting a fragment of it as indicative of the overall sentiment.  But perhaps that was not your intention. 

SALT LAKE CITY - Utah is the only state that requires people to fill out an application and pay a fee before entering a bar.

But the shelf life of this law - enacted 40 years ago in a state where nearly two out of three residents are members of a religion that shuns drinking - appears to be dwindling.

In Utah, and across the country, governors and lawmakers faced with budget deficits are advocating loosening laws that restrict alcohol consumption in the hopes of boosting tax revenues.
- In Georgia, Connecticut, Indiana, Texas, Alabama and Minnesota, lawmakers are considering legislation this year that would end the ban on Sunday liquor sales. All but 15 states sell booze on Sundays.

- In Nebraska, a state lawmaker has proposed allowing beer to be consumed in state parks as a way to boost tourism.

- Other states, including Utah, are considering allowing the sale of liquor on Election Day.

Drinkers shouldn't break out the bubbly just yet: Two dozen states, including California, Massachusetts, Oklahoma and Virginia, are looking to help their budgets by raising alcohol taxes.

Alcohol taxes are a popular budgetary crutch for lawmakers because liquor sales tend to hold up relatively well, compared with other revenue streams, during hard times, said Steve Schmidt, vice president of the Alexandria, Va. based National Alcohol Beverage Control Association.

In 2008, revenue reported by liquor suppliers rose 2.8 percent from the previous year to $18.7 billion, according to the Distilled Spirits Council of the United States. That's slower than the 6 percent average annual growth rate since 2000.

The council's president, Peter Cressy, calls liquor "recession resilient" not recession proof - a point that industry officials make when cautioning lawmakers about raising taxes.

Earlier this month, distillers in Kentucky poured bottles of bourbon on the statehouse steps there to protest a proposed tax increase.

In Pittsburgh, a 10 percent tax placed on alcohol last year inspired an animated satire, resulted in some bars printing signs saying the tax's architect was not welcome and one restaurateur challenging Allegheny County Executive Dan Onorato to a charity boxing match.

Ben Jenkins, a spokesman for the Distilled Spirits Council, said states would be better off if they simply made alcohol more accessible to meet consumer demand. States that lift the ban on Sunday sales see a 5 percent to 8 percent annual sales increase, he said.

"Dozens of states consider alcohol taxes and every year most of them fail because the legislators become educated as to the effects a tax increase on alcohol would have on the hospitality industry," he said. "Since 2001, we've seen 245 major tax proposals and 227 of them have failed."

Those opposed to reforming Utah's liquor laws cite concerns about overconsumption and drunk driving. But religion also plays a key role.

About 60 percent of the state's residents are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which tells its members not to drink alcohol. An even greater percentage of lawmakers - 80 percent to 90 percent - are Mormon, though some of them are open to changing the law for the sake of the state's economy.

The state's private club system as it's currently known, was created in 1969 after voters - encouraged by the church - killed a proposal to allow the sale of liquor by the drink in restaurants.

But for Utah's $6 billion-a-year tourism industry, liquor laws are a major issue, too. They say it hurts their efforts to compete with neighboring states like Colorado for the lucrative convention and ski market.

If there was ever a question if Utah has an image problem because of its quirky liquor laws, business travelers like Marty Cano can answer it.

"Originally, I thought alcohol was illegal here," the Austin, Texas IT consultant said one recent night after downing a few pints of beer at the Poplar Street Pub, a few blocks away from the downtown Mormon temple.

Utah's bar industry has come up with a compromise to the hassle of making patrons fill out forms. Its leaders have proposed scanning driver's licenses before customers enter a club to verify nobody under 21 enters. Some lawmakers would like information about who goes into a bar stored on the scanners so police could use it.

There are other ways in which Utah's liquor laws are getting stronger. Last year, it became the only state to ban the sale of flavored malt beverages from grocery and convenience stores.

Other states, meanwhile, are trying to eliminate much less onerous hassles associated with buying alcohol.

In Colorado and Kansas, grocery stores are fighting for the right to sell full-strength beer. Most of the opposition in those states isn't coming from morality groups, but instead from liquor stores who like having a corner on the market.

A similar effort is occurring in Tennessee, where lawmakers are considering allowing the sale of wine in supermarkets.

In Alabama, a proposal to raise the amount of alcohol allowed in beer from 6 percent alcohol by volume to 13.9 percent is being considered, although some church groups fear it would result in people getting drunker quicker.

Dave Morris, owner of Salt Lake City's Piper Down, an Irish-themed pub, said keeping a database of who enters a bar would be "a public relations nightmare" but he says he's willing to accept scanning IDs if it helps tourism officials lure more visitors to the state, and put more money into the pockets of his customers.

"If they have more money, they can come out more often," he said. "It will all trickle down."

---

Coulter once again calls for the execution of NY Times journalists for treason. 

Can someone send  Ann a message that we need to try Bush and his boss Cheney for their crimes first, then we will work on the media. 

http://mediamatters.org/items/200607140015

torture techniques.

The only **cheap methods* come from angry ignorant neocons who try to bully and threaten others on a computer message board because their team lost. Get over it and yourself already and seek some help for your anger and superiority issues. Too bad you don't support your country but fortunately the majority of people do.

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/rep-john-boehner-admits-torture-was-use

CHEAP TOMATOES?

This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or Independent

From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens , Huntington Park , etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK )

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America . (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much he*l with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements ?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it . Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 an d that refuses to assimilate , and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about " political Correctness " that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth , a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are, or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare . All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense .

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people!

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'

THIS HAS GOT TO BE PASSED ALONG TO AS MANY AS POSSIBLE OR WE WILL ALL GO DOWN THE DRAIN BECAUSE A FEW DON'T CARE.