Home     Contact Us    
Main Board Job Seeker's Board Job Wanted Board Resume Bank Company Board Word Help Medquist New MTs Classifieds Offshore Concerns VR/Speech Recognition Tech Help Coding/Medical Billing
Gab Board Politics Comedy Stop Health Issues
ADVERTISEMENT




Serving Over 20,000 US Medical Transcriptionists

Not even worth the time - see message

Posted By: dee on 2008-11-26
In Reply to: Your DH sounds just about as loopey - as you do. nm

To respond to someone who knows nothing about how the stock market works.

Your just another liberal trying to cut down people that don't believe the way you do and somehow elevate yourself to the elite crowd. No thanks.

DH has made a career working in the stock market, researching, writing articles and providing companies with information on stocks, futures, etc. etc.

Loopey is all the glossy-eye O worshippers who wouldn't know the truth if it hit em in the face. They close their eyes and follow the voice of Farrahkan and others and don't question anything.




Complete Discussion Below: marks the location of current message within thread

The messages you are viewing are archived/old.
To view latest messages and participate in discussions, select the boards given in left menu


Other related messages found in our database

Maybe you are not worth the time
nm
Don't listen to him - he's so unimportant not worth my time
I used to listen to Rush all the time....every single day. Loved him when I was for the pubs, hated him when I was for the dems. I don't listen to him anymore whether I agree with some of his viewpoints or not because he is biased. He doesn't listen to reason and he spews that he is speaking truth. He treats all democrats with very little respect (which I think a lot of them deserve more than what he dishes out). Rush has never been for a person (candidate), always just the party. Even when he tries to pay someone a compliment he comes out looking like an uneducated imbicile and pig. I've learned over time that he and Sean Hannity fall into the same category - completely nauseating. So I don't listen to them and I'm completely happy.
A powerful message at a time we need it most
Click on the link below.  I encourage all faiths to see this message.  Thank you.
I don't know how I do my job ... so many typos on off time! Now vs not. No message
:)
Time to come back to reality - see message
First and most importantly you do not have your facts correct. Sarah Palin and John McCain never once started any assassination conspiracies. I believe if anyone it was Hillary Clinton as the whole country heard her say it on camera.

Can you not grasp the difference between talks of assassination and candidates getting up talking in their rallies bringing up issues about their oponents (both sides). M/P got up and spoke about Obama's shady background, his friendships with the people like Ayers (a known terrorist), ACORN, Rev. Wright, etc, etc, etc. This list goes on and on and on. They spoke about Obama's viewpoints on abortion and his voting record. And Obama/Biden did the same thing. Whatever the supporters think up in their own minds is nobody's fault and you will have a few nuts who will say terrible things. But face reality - it is on both sides. There is so much hatred being spewed against Palin and her family for no good reason. You take one part of her interview and claim she can't make sentences but you ignore the fact that when Obama speaks it is usually with um, er, uh, um, um, er, um, etc. Then he can't even speak without pre-written speeches and teleprompters.

What I'm trying to say is there are violent people on both sides. You're coming off as though everyone who is supporting Obama/Biden are peaceful people that all just want to get along and have a big group hug. OH PLEASE!!! What that video showed you is that there are violent people who were trying to attack and overturn Palin's motorcade. And if they were successful they would have dragged her out and beaten her to death. Remember Reginald Denny? There are violent people are on both sides.

Also, the so called "thousands and thousands at a Palin rally" is a bunch of hooey. Never heard on tape and secret service reported they never once heard anyone yell anything against Obama that the Obama supporters are claiming they did. You can't make up something that didn't happen. Well actually you are making up something that didn't happen but it doesn't make it true.

As for Obama supporters "responding in kind". Oh please....the Obama suporters spewed nothing but hatred and lies against the M/P camp, AND we saw that in Obama's attack ads. As for negative campaigning. Both did negative campaigning. The first we saw of it was Obama. Look at what he did to Hillary.

As for the entire media/press...they were too busy having a love fest with Obama they got away from reporting news and kept spewing out their opinions. Lets talk about the liberal TV and radio stations (I watch them all). The liberal stations never reported one negative thing about Obama or Biden. Not one thing!!!!! Yet they kept badgering and spewing their lies and hatred against M/P - hence Chris Matthews and Keith Olberman were held back from reporting the main political stories - MSNBC & CNN lost a lot of viewers because of their vicious lies and not reporting facts anymmore.

As for saying Palin made a fool of herself. Well looks like you didn't even listen to anything she ever said. You probably only listened to what MSNBC or CNN reported about her. She has more experience as Governor than Obama has as a junior senator. And did more good things for her state and has around a 90% approval rating. And while she was doing this where was Obama? Sitting in a hate-filled sermons of Rev. Wright twice a month, having the terrorist Ayers jump start his political career. And hanging out with people like Rezco, Daley, and others. Truth is Palin was never given a fair chance by the media. Watching her interviewed by the people who wanted to see her fail was the worst journalism I have ever seen and those two (Couric and Gibson) should be fired. They have shown they have no journalistic qualities. Talk about getting a free ride - that's where they elevated Obama and Biden. Whenever Biden made a gaff (and BIG ones) they let him slide. They never gave Obama the tough questions. And they never reported on him saying there are 57 states. All that was conveniently pushed under the rug to try to be forgotten. So yes I found it very irresponsible that they treated Obama like he was king while they trashed Palin/McCain.

Like one poster said...if M/P won you would hear about assissination attempts coming from the Obama people. And still when I pull up article after article after article I am not seeing Palin supporting an assassination as you are trying to claim. I am however seeing Hillary's name come up time after time.

If you want to talk about behaving like a 5th grader look no further than the mirror. I am addressing issues and have been. I read all articles, listen to all TV/radio stations whether I agree or not. You're just repeating what I've already heard on the liberal stations and we all know they cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Maybe a bit of research would be a good thing. I've done it, but then again you have to have an open mind when reading articles.

Don't you get that ignoring facts shows how little you research, how biased one is hence none of your arguments are valid.

Creating conspiracy theories is not how America is going to be able to move forward...don't you get that?
Hey JTBB - I agree with you for once in a long time - see message
Too many posts to reply to so I'll reply here - I read the article. This is not a once in awhile family gathering, BBQ or picnic. This is weekly business meeting. Yes, that's right - business. Religion is a business. If you just had a few people every once in awhile coming to your house that would be one thing, but the article stated they have regular meetings in the home. I think the person who wrote the article did a little bit of "fibbing" with saying they were asked if they say "praise the lord" and if they pray. Could have happened, but I highly doubt it (again that's JMO). The concern the county has is that the home is being used as a business without a business permit. What they are doing is something that should be held in churches - which by the way ALL churches should be taxed seeing as they are all businesses.

I do agree very much with your assessment that these are the same people trying to take away the rights of the LGBT community. It does seem to be a one-way avenue. For the most part all the communities I have lived in the Christians want their rights, but they are also the first to want to remove the rights of other groups if they don't coincide with their beliefs.

If religious people want to have a small gathering in their home that's fine, but bringing a congregation of people into your home is a business, especially if it is on a regular basis.

People have bible meetings all the time in their own homes, but they don't have them on a regular basis and they don't have large groups making them stand out. They should keep their religious assemblies where it belongs - in the churches - and because its a business it should be taxed.

One other note is that the article mentioned what about tupperware parties or baseball games. Well those are not regular business meeetings going on.

I am sick of the hypocracy they have. I'm tired of hearing about "poor us, we can't pray, we can't do this, we can't do that, their trying to take away our rights". Yet everytime when I hear what is really going on I find the story has been exagerated to fit the "poor us" philosophy. Good example is this story. It started out with "poor us, we can pray in our own homes", when the truth comes out they are holding regular business meetings with their congregation meeting at their home residence. Two entirely different things.
take it for what it's worth.....
What exactly do you think the ACLU is going to do?
For what its worth....
Ann Coulter is an entertainer. The left has them too...Michael Moore...Al Franken...and every time she says something outrageous the left runs backwards, gives her a lot of press, and she rakes in the dough. So she keeps saying things, the left keeps running backwards, and she makes more money. Just like Michael Moore, just like AL Franken. I used to hear things on Air America that make Ann Coulter look like little Orphan Annie. But I never heard the left condemn them either. Probably because I have seen some of the left post here things like *a waste of air* talking about another human being, and then in the same breath have another liberal post all the wonderful things liberals are supposed to be like *live and let live.* In other words...some snipes at Republicans who dare to post here near about as hateful as Ann Coulter.

All that being said...she is an entertainer. If the left would stop reacting like she was the devil incarnate every time she opened her mouth, she would go away, just Air America did. If conservatives had run screaming in the streets every time Air America said something controversial, they never would have folded. It is consumer driven, DW...and frankly, right now, the left is driving Ann Coulter more than the right is.
so how much am I worth?
s
Something worth
The "waterboarding" methods used by the Japanese differed significantly from those used by our intelligence operatives. The Japanese often pushed a tube into the prisoner's mouth so that the water would distend the stomach, causing real pain (which our version does not) and ultimately rupturing the stomach. They also had no physicians in attendance to see to the prisoner's safety, as we always did.

So, the fact that the two techniques happen to go by the same name does not make them moral equivalents either in their methods or the way they were conducted.

To paraphrase the dairy industry: Got facts?
What isn't worth fighting for...
Probably a lot of things are worth fighting for...like liberty, to protect our country, to protect our values and ideals.

Unfortunately though it's been a long time since any wars were really fought for those things. They tell us that's what it's all about and we try to buy it, but if we happen to look at the facts closely, we just find out a lot of wealthy people get richer and they use the blood of other people's children to do it. They make up enemies and pour on the propaganda to rile us up so we'll think it's noble to go and die, and make them rich. That's how it seems to me anyway, and history certainly tends to back up that conclusion.

I think the last time we were fighting for worthwhile things was when we wore animal skins and carried wooden spears.
Not even worth a reply -

Truly, someone like this is not worth the energy.
There is no logical thought behind their posts.  Calling me a racist is a silly immature infantile leftist ploy.  We know that.  I learned a long time ago to ignore posters such as this. 
hmmmmmmm - not worth it
xx
So maybe your net worth went up cuz you're
It's also not a viable option for most people.
Worth a Looksie

 


http://news.newsmax.com/?ZKI6Y1SaRsveVj2cAdYJtBQ1z3rkxJU1Z


Like my teacher used to say, if you have nothing worth
xx
Ya think they'll let her keep the $150,000 worth of
and accessories if the numbers don't take 'em over the top on Nov 4th?
and why was that worth reading?
I got nothing from that except that it is one more person who does not like Obama.

There was nothing in there that was not just one person's personal viewpoint - an obvious McCain supporter.
say something worth reading

You are BORING with your same rants day after day.  Especially when they were already discussed on last nights news.  I'm not wasting my time.  Have fun, I guess? 


Old news but worth remembering
Lets Not Forget: Bush Planned Iraq 'Regime Change' Before Becoming President




15 September 2002: A SECRET blueprint for US global domination reveals that President Bush and his cabinet were planning a premeditated attack on Iraq to secure 'regime change' even before he took power in January 2001.

The blueprint, uncovered by the Sunday Herald, for the creation of a 'global Pax Americana' was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), George W Bush's younger brother Jeb and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says: 'The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'

The PNAC document supports a 'blueprint for maintaining global US pre-eminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests'.

This 'American grand strategy' must be advanced for 'as far into the future as possible', the report says. It also calls for the US to 'fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' as a 'core mission'.

The report describes American armed forces abroad as 'the cavalry on the new American frontier'. The PNAC blueprint supports an earlier document written by Wolfowitz and Libby that said the US must 'discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to a larger regional or global role'.

The PNAC report also:

l refers to key allies such as the UK as 'the most effective and efficient means of exercising American global leadership';

l describes peace-keeping missions as 'demanding American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations';

l reveals worries in the administration that Europe could rival the USA;

l says 'even should Saddam pass from the scene' bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain permanently -- despite domestic opposition in the Gulf regimes to the stationing of US troops -- as 'Iran may well prove as large a threat to US interests as Iraq has';

l spotlights China for 'regime change' saying 'it is time to increase the presence of American forces in southeast Asia'. This, it says, may lead to 'American and allied power providing the spur to the process of democratisation in China';

l calls for the creation of 'US Space Forces', to dominate space, and the total control of cyberspace to prevent 'enemies' using the internet against the US;

l hints that, despite threatening war against Iraq for developing weapons of mass destruction, the US may consider developing biological weapons -- which the nation has banned -- in decades to come. It says: 'New methods of attack -- electronic, 'non-lethal', biological -- will be more widely available ... combat likely will take place in new dimensions, in space, cyberspace, and perhaps the world of microbes ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool';

l and pinpoints North Korea, Libya, Syria and Iran as dangerous regimes and says their existence justifies the creation of a 'world-wide command-and-control system'.

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP, father of the House of Commons and one of the leading rebel voices against war with Iraq, said: 'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war.

'This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world. I am appalled that a British Labour Prime Minister should have got into bed with a crew which has this moral standing.'


©2002 smg sunday newspapers ltd


Many Say War Not Worth It; Cheney: 'So?'
Did you see Cheney on the ABC News tonight? You should have seen his smirky grin when he told her "so." He doesn't care what the country thinks about the war.

"On the security front, I think there's a general consensus that we've made major progress, that the surge has worked. That's been a major success," Cheney told ABC News' Martha Raddatz.

When asked about how that jibes with recent polls that show about two-thirds of Americans say the fight in Iraq is not worth it, Cheney replied, "So?"

"You don't care what the American people think?" Raddatz asked the vice president.

Yeah - that would be worth watching.

It is worth mentioning that the author
of this article is a a conservative Republican and contributing Editor of Red State, a conservative blog. Since we are always hearing after this or that article about that paper or station being liberal, I think it should be be noted that this is clearly republican and biased on that account.
Anyone who takes Fox tabloid seriously is not worth it and
Fox is a one sided propaganda hateful tabloid. It's quite clear to the intelligent people of this world. Think about it for a minute. Sheesh. They lie. lie lie lie and Hannity is the worst one.
Looks like it was a point worth missing.
you decide to let us in on what that elusive point might be.
Not true and not worth commenting on.
Please do some research before you post things that are not true. Just do a Google search and you will find the truth.

Another fishy story from someone who took the Republican bait hook, line, and sinker!
Dollars you have in your pocket won't be worth anything.....
As value decreases now, world is found on shaky ground, too, so my thought is that they are probably going to come up with a currency that will be used by all countries involved (from research I've done) and the dollars you have in your bank account, savings account (?) and pocket won't be worth a red minted cent!
Government Spending: Is It Worth $62,000 to You?.....sm


Government Spending: Is It Worth $62,000 to You?

By John R. Lott, Jr.
Author, “Freedomnomics”/Senior Research Scientist, University of Maryland

The stimulus bill had to be passed quickly. President Obama warned that not passing it would result in disaster. He warned that any delay was “inexcusable.” The 1,071 page stimulus bill had to be voted on quickly — so quickly this last week that the House and the Senate couldn’t even provide politicians the 48 hours they were supposed to have to read it.

The legislation was not put up on the Web until 11 PM on February 12 and the House passed it just 12 hours later. The Senate started voting on it only hours after that. Politician after politician admitted or complained that it was physically impossible to read the bill. As it was, the copies available on the Web for voters had all sorts of hand markings on it that sometimes made it difficult to figure out exactly what the bill proposed.

Just to let this sink in — the amount of money that the government is committing to spend this year is equivalent to the average taxpayer just writing the government a check today for $62,200.

Despite all this pressure, Obama seems rather laid back after the bill was passed — he doesn’t plan the signing ceremony until Tuesday. As the New York Post noted, after passage, Obama “promptly took off for a three-day holiday getaway.” Possibly, Obama’s vacation was well deserved, but why couldn’t Congress have held debate and voted over the weekend or on Monday to allow extra time to read the bill?

It was not just the House and Senate rules that were set aside to get this vote through quickly. Promises were broken also. During the presidential campaign, Obama promised voters at least 5 days to study legislation. Obama’s presidential campaign Web site claimed that any earmark should have a written justification as well as “72 hours before they can be approved by the full Senate.” Of course, the whole spending bill is at odds with Obama’s promise to cut “net” government spending.

But the Democrats had help ramming this through. Three Republican Senators — Arlen Specter, Olympia Snow, and Susan Collins — could have voted for more time for debate. It was only with all three of their votes that the Democrats were able to reach the exact 60 votes they needed Friday to pass the bill. If any one of these three senators had asked for more time to read the bill and allow others to analyze it, they would have gotten it.

Not only did the final “stimulus” bill have major changes from what had been voted on previously by the House and Senate, but the amount of money involved is staggering. With 90 million tax filers who actually pay taxes, the $787 billion means the average taxpayer will pay over $8,700.

By itself, adding $8,700 to the average tax bill should get everyone’s attention. But that is on top of everything else that we are spending this year. With the stimulus bill, the $700 billion financial bailout (half spent by Bush and half by Obama), and the bailout for the auto companies, this year’s deficit is already at about$1.7 trillion — almost $19,000 per taxpayer. With more possible bailouts for the auto industry and others, that total might rise further.

But the stimulus won’t just raise government expenditures for the next two years. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that from 2010 to 2019 government expenditures for just 20 provisions will increase by almost $2.4 trillion. Assuming a 4.5 percent interest rate, that is the equivalent of about $1.9 trillion today. Adding that to the previous total brings the total to about $40,000 owed per taxpayer.

But that is not all the money that taxpayers are going to be on the hook for. Last week, the Obama administration promised another $2 trillion for the financial bailout. The decisions that we are making just this year are adding up to $5.6 trillion — $62,200 per taxpayer. Just to let this sink in — the amount of money that the government is committing to spend this year is equivalent to the average taxpayer just writing the government a check today for $62,200.

Each one of these expenditures are getting pushed through quickly, but it is all adding up. People have to weigh this against benefits such as the $400 per person tax credit that those who make less than $75,000 per year are going to get under the stimulus.

And that is not the end of the costs that we will face this year. From even more health care reforms to environmental regulation and global warming to even more money for autos and other companies, the bills are going to get bigger. Some costs will temporarily be hidden through borrowing, but others will mean higher immediate taxes and higher product prices.

But the average taxpayer faces a simple question: are they getting $62,200 worth of benefits from all these government expenditures this year? If so, they are going to be poorer. My guess is that most of us are going to be a lot poorer.


John R. Lott, Jr. is the author of “Freedomnomics” and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland.

Funny! The only one with a positive net worth is the bum. :) nm
x
It is long, but worth the watch....
those who are curious should look online for members of the Bilderberg group. What is so amazingly funny about it is that the left used to call it a secret shadowy group and that Cheney and Bush and some other of the right were members and they were the biggg baddd (sorry big bad, no slam on you, seriously) and now that Obama is in and has filled the government with members of the group, well hey...maybe they aren't so bad afterall. Good grief!! Amazing.
She's not worth a debate IMHO...BTDT..nm

One snippet of a sermon does not mean a whole 20 years worth
What I heard was awful, but that does not mean the church was like that for 20 years. I saw an interview with a lady who went to the same church and she said a lot of times the church spoke of love. It was not always hatred. By my next statement you are going to think I'm an "Obama lover" but really I am not. He's no where by means perfect, but I actually do believe he was not in service that day and did not hear that particular service. I believe if that church was spewing hatred Sunday after Sunday after Sunday for 20 years there would be more of the sermons on video tape, but there is only one service. And even at that it's not the whole service, it's one segment of the service. I also find it a little odd that this incident (sermon) happened after he started running for office. I also find it a little odd that one of Hillary's supporters was involved with Jeremiah Wright (involved meaning scheduling his tours, meetings, etc). Don't you think that this could have been a plant by her campaign to have this guy go in (who is actually supporting her), say a bunch of hateful statements, and oh by the way just happened to be videotaped that day, and only that portion of the sermon. Now wouldn't you think that Hillary's campaign would use that against Obama. Kind of have to think about that one. Also think it's quite odd that when it didn't backfire more than what Hillary & Bill thought it would, they started going on an all out rampage against him. I believe Rev. Wright was planted and it backfired on them. What I would have liked to hear was from other church members talking about what their church was about for the past 20 years, not just one segment of one sermon.
I'm glad the article was viewed for what its worth
After I posted I was prepared to get flamed. I used to support Obama until I started reading and learning more about his polices. I could care less about the "Wright" thing or what his wife said. I want to know hard facts. What does he want to lead our country, what are his plans for the economy "back to life". His "tax" plan. What I'm hearing is that everytime he talks he's saying something different, and I'm beginning to not trust that. I also just read that he is now saying he doesn't plan to bring our troops home right away. He'll keep them there another 5 years. So, my trust in him is going downhill very fast. Also I think we all know that both candidates are "run" by others higher than them (bankers, lawyers, the richest of the richest, etc). Each group has their own agenda. Something that is disturbing to me (and I'd have to do a lot of research to find this article again), but I read an article that said the same people who are "running" Obama are the same people who are running Bush. When you do a search on the people who are funding Obama's campaign they are the same people who back Bush and what he does.

I'm glad the article I posted was met with people who appreciate the information and not flame me for posting something that doesn't praise Obama.
A picture is worth a thousand words! (nm)
:)
NCAAP, NYTimes, NBC, etc. (worth watching)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-rrdbHo0s
Not inherently worth of respect at all....my issue still is that (sm)
with Wright a select group is chosen to be hated. Most people I know, and I am a Christian, do not follow the teachings of these radical evangelists. However, while they may be noxious and extreme, they are still not race-specific. Add to that the fact that while these ministers/evangelists may "endorse" McCain, he still did ot sit in their church pews for 20 years listening to them spout hatred.
Is General Motors Worth Saving?

Then came October. Sales plummeted an astounding 45% over the same period last year, a result of a slowing economy and a dearth of financing for would-be car buyers. Total U.S. car and light-truck sales this year could come in at 13.5 million, 2.6 million fewer than last year. "That's in nobody's business plan," says Kimberly Rodriguez, an automotive specialist with Grant Thornton. "The best planning in the world cannot survive that fluctuation." It's now clear that GM can't survive as an ongoing entity without massive federal assistance. The company is burning through more than $2 billion each month. It has $16 billion left. As if they were aboard a dirigible losing altitude, GM's bosses have been frantically throwing all manner of stuff overboard — retiree health-care benefits, people, assets, new car design — to conserve $5 billion. That will get it through the year. (See pictures of the 50 worst cars of all time.)


But 2009 is the year of reckoning for GM and the rest of the domestic auto industry, if not the economy as a whole. The GM crisis is raising once again the issue of how far the government should go in rescuing banks, insurance companies, mortgage holders, credit-card issuers and now carmakers. GM has no doubts about it. "Immediate federal funding is essential in order for the U.S. automotive industry to weather this downturn," GM president Fritz Henderson admitted to investors during a conference call in which GM announced a third-quarter loss of $2.5 billion.


No one is more aware of that need than Barack Obama, who carried Michigan by a huge margin. The President-elect is committed to helping the Detroit Three, and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is leading a rescue party that plans to get a bailout bill in front of President Bush before Thanksgiving. So far, the President has offered only to speed through Congress an already approved $25 billion loan to help Detroit create new fuel-efficient models. But GM needs an additional $10 billion simply to pay its bills next year and $15 billion more to close plants, compensate redundant workers and dump some of its lesser-performing brands.


The issue boils down to a historic proposition: Is what's good for GM still good for the country?


"If GM were to go into a free-fall bankruptcy and didn't pay its trade debts, then the entire domestic auto industry shuts down," says Rodriguez. The system — the domestic auto plants and their interconnected group of suppliers — is far bigger than GM. It includes 54 North American manufacturing plants and at least 4,000 so-called Tier 1 suppliers — firms that feed parts and subassemblies directly to those plants. That includes mom-and-pop outfits but also a dozen or so large companies such as Lear, Johnson Controls and GM's former captive Delphi. Beyond those are thousands of the suppliers' suppliers.


Although the Detroit Three directly employed about 240,000 people last year, according to the industry-allied Center for Automotive Research (CAR) in Ann Arbor, Mich., the multiplier effect is large, which is typical in manufacturing. Throw in the partsmakers and other suppliers, and you have an additional 974,000 jobs. Together, says CAR, these 1.2 million workers spend enough to keep 1.7 million more people employed. That gets you to 2.9 million jobs tied to the Detroit Three, and even if you discount the figures because of CAR's allegiance, it's a big number. Shut down Detroit, and the national unemployment rate heads toward 10% in a hurry. (See Pictures of the Week.)


Even if just one of the Detroit Three — and GM is the most likely, as Ford is in better shape and Chrysler is much smaller — spiraled into a free-fall bankruptcy, the systemic effects, at least initially, would be huge. The whole industry would not be able to build cars in the U.S., because of the lack of parts. "Unlike the airlines or steel, when you look at the automobile industry and the fact that the whole supplier base is connected — to Ford, Chrysler, Toyota — it will have a ripple effect on the entire industry," says Nicole Y. Lamb-Hale, a bankruptcy expert at the Detroit office of Foley & Lardner, a law firm that represents some GM suppliers.


A carefully planned, prepackaged bankruptcy would still be troublesome, she says. Throwing 479,000 GM retirees onto the rolls of the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., for instance, could overwhelm it. And GM's agreement to fund the United Auto Workers' voluntary employee beneficiary association (VEBA) — thus getting a $50 billion unfunded liability off its books — might then be in jeopardy, as would the union's health benefits. The VEBA has already saved GM nearly $5 billion in the past quarter, and still greater benefits lie ahead.


A bailout won't spare GM or its workers pain. Assuming the government bridges GM to the future — or provides debtor-in-possession financing in a bankruptcy — there is still a ton of restructuring to do. The company operates 21 plants in North America and has three more that are scheduled to close. But Grant Thornton's Rodriguez says that still leaves five to go to match demand. "They still need to take structural steps: reduce suppliers, reduce the number of plants, reduce the cost structure and get rid of excessive debt." Most analysts say GM has to dump underperforming brands too.


Shutting down plants and cutting labor are costly — it's one of the ironies of the auto business. Deutsche Bank estimates that GM would have to spend $12 billion to chop labor costs and compensate dealers who lose their franchises. That would lower GM's North American operating costs from the current $31 billion to $25 billion annually, says Deutsche Bank. (See pictures of the global financial crisis.)


None of this can happen without the cooperation of the UAW, which is probably feeling better knowing that Obama is on his way to Washington. Although it hasn't shown its hand, the UAW may try to mitigate job losses in the U.S. by pushing GM and Ford to build fewer vehicles in Mexico, according to Sean McAlinden, chief economist at CAR. Obama might be sympathetic to that argument; he said during the campaign that NAFTA needed to be re-examined. The carrot for GM is that any new workers it hires in the U.S. will make $13 to $14 an hour and collect limited benefits rather than work for $29 an hour and get full benefits — the old UAW wage.


There's also a legitimate question as to who would do the restructuring. GM CEO Rick Wagoner has made the case that his crew is best placed to run the turnaround since it knows where the cost buttons are. But critics like Jim Schrager at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business say the wrong people are in charge: "I think you would only put money in GM if you had a complete change in the board and the current management. They are diligent. They worked very hard, but it just hasn't worked." In Schrager's view, GM is a strategic failure. It can manufacture high-quality cars, but it neither makes the right kind nor markets them effectively. He'd bust the company up into three independent firms: Chevy, Buick-Pontiac-GMC and Cadillac-Saab-Saturn.


If that's ultimately where Detroit ends up, is it worth the price to get there? Put another way, does GM deserve to be bailed out or left at the mercy of the market and almost certain death? "The University of Chicago training in me says the market should prevail," says Schrager. "But the Chrysler bailout was a success, and, gosh, I'd love to save it." That sentiment is not shared by everyone, and it goes to the heart of the central economic debate facing the country — between hard-nosed capitalists, who believe the market should decide, and public-policy types who view the economy as something far more organic than a balance sheet. But ultimately, whether GM is dead or alive, the taxpayers are on the hook for billions, for everything from lost tax revenues to higher unemployment costs to taking over GM's pension obligations. The decision that Washington has to make is whether we pay for GM's survival or for its funeral.


— With reporting by Joseph R. Szczesny / Detroit


What land in Texas is even worth 'grabbing'?
nm
This is long but worth the read, about Obama senior...

foreign policy advisor....


http://www.rense.com/general80/obb.htm


Not worth wasting perfectly good words on.
xx
That's exactly right! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. - nm
x
AWWW....you weren't supposed to tell anyone!! Can't keep a secret worth a dang!!

Yep, but it was straight time. No time and a half
DHL is GERMAN OWNED.  And, company was located on Snotsdale, I mean Scottsdale, AZ which means.  Labor laws in Arizona suck.  Right to work state.  Basically a company can do whatever they want to do with you and if you do not like it, then quit and find another job.
see message
I think the behavior you describe is pretty common for ignorant folks.  Just because they voted for him, they feel they have to uphold every stupid decision he makes. 
Thank you - please see message
I'm glad you felt comfortable responding to my post. I didn't realize how heated things had gotten but could tell from what remains on the conservative board that it had gotten pretty ugly, and I thought the tax issue was a fairly safe issue to broach to provide a cooling period while discussing an issue that pretty much everyone agrees on - a need for tax reform.

Note, though, that it was one post on one topic and the first I have submitted in some time. Most of the threads on the board begin with an issue/article posted by Nan or AG.

However, regardless of who contributes most to the conservative forum, I must agree with Brunson and thank him/her for recognizing that the conservative forum is the conservative forum. I realize that tempers have flared there and things got out of hand, but the conservative posters have given no worse than they received. It seems to me that, at any time, liberal posters tired of dealing with Nan and AG (and MT, as well) on the conservative board could have done as Nan and AG did - remained on the forum dedicated to their point of view.

Thank you for your welcome to this forum - you have been very congenial, and I have enjoyed the discussion today. Frankly, I cannot see myself fitting into this liberal forum - as I said, my views on most issues tend to be pretty conservative. I don't see much point in hanging around the conservative forum if there isn't anybody there, so it looks like I'll probably just be peeking in now and again to see if/when discussion resumes. If I reply again on this forum, I will certainly try to do so with as much respect and kindness as you have shown me today, even though my opinions will probably differ.
Hey.....see my message!

I live in a rural area, have three dogs and do weight training also!!!


Actually it is said by the experts that if you are inexperienced with a gun you're better off not having one.  It's kind of complex, but check out the info if you're interested. 


I used to have military mace (actually from when I lived in a big city) - not sure if it's available to the public - probably easier to use than a gun and just as effective.  Otherwise, not sure who we're supposed to be afraid of here.....I generally am not afraid of intruders and I don't have any weapons in my house other than my dogs and my mouth!!!


See Message.
Maybe if you were more tolerant and didn't pose such a rude message, someone would be interested in debating with you.  I think it's just human nature to not want to associate with people who approach others in such a nasty confrontational way.  If you were nicer to others, others would be nicer to you.
See message.

I can't wait to see what Fitzgerald's investigation unfolds.


Libby and Rove both were sources for the leak of Plame's occupation.


This was after Joe Wilson made public that Bush's claim that Saddam Hussein was purchasing uranium to make nukes was FALSE.  The administration KNEW it was false, yet Bush used this fake threat of nukes in his State of the Union address to scare the heebie-jeebies out of the American public so they would support this bogus war.


That's how Bushies handle people who cross them.  Don't DARE tell the truth or expose the administration for what it truly is.  If you do, they'll not only put the life of a CIA agent in danger, but every single person she worked with around the globe pertaining to WMD.  Why isn't this treason?  It's the Bush way of doing things, and Karl Rove is an expert and accomplished thug.


I hope this goes beyond Rove and Libby and goes straight to Bush and Cheney.  This is definitely an illegal war, brought on totally false premises, and Bush and Cheney should be personally held accountable for all the deaths (American and Iraqi) that have resulted from their lies.


It's truly sad when the only man on earth who can make Saddam look not so bad is GEORGE W. BUSH.  I'm very ashamed of my government.


See message.

I'm writing to my Congressman and Senator and see if this is true, express my objection and see if they can BOUNCE the *blank check* they gave him regarding Iraq and require Congressional approval for air strikes.


The article you posted included the following: 


After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the former official said, he was told that Bush felt that “God put me here” to deal with the war on terror. The President’s belief was fortified by the Republican sweep in the 2002 congressional elections; Bush saw the victory as a purposeful message from God that “he’s the man,” the former official said. Publicly, Bush depicted his reëlection as a referendum on the war; privately, he spoke of it as another manifestation of divine purpose.


Someone needs to tell Bush that God thinks Bush is too engulfed in his own ego to fully understand God's REAL message to him, and that's why God gave us POLLS.


See message.

I don't believe religious symbols of ANY kind belong in schools (unless they're religious schools) or government buildings.  If Walmart or Target wish to be inclusive to all religious beliefs, more power to them.  Private businesses should be free to do as they wish.  If they want to limit it to the religious Christmas and exclude the secular *Christmas,* some people might not want to shop in that kind of *exclusive* shop.  You can bet their profit margin is the bottom line for them.


For every religion out there, there are buildings:  churches, mosques, temples, etc. where like-minded people gather to worship.  Trying to control the very WORDS people say isn't going to work unless and until you guys figure out a way to implant a chip in every American that will force them to speak, think, believe and worship just like you do.  Maybe some of us think you'd do that if you had the ability, and maybe THAT'S the underlying thing that people are fighting.