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Outta Work and Outta Luck

Posted By: sm on 2009-02-22
In Reply to:



by: Peter Whoriskey, The Washington Post


photo
People wait to speak with staff about unemployment benefits.



    In record numbers, employers move to block unemployment payouts.

    It's hard enough to lose a job. But for a growing proportion of U.S. workers, the troubles really set in when they apply for unemployment benefits.

    More than a quarter of people applying for such claims have their rights to the benefit challenged as employers increasingly act to block payouts to former workers.

    The proportion of claims disputed by former employers and state agencies has reached record levels in recent years, according to the Labor Department numbers tallied by the Urban Institute.

    Under state and federal laws, employees who are fired for misbehavior or quit voluntarily are ineligible for unemployment compensation. When jobless claims are blocked, employers save money because their unemployment insurance rates are based on the amount of the benefits their workers collect.

    As unemployment rolls swell in the recession, many workers seem surprised to find their benefits challenged, their former bosses providing testimony against them. On one recent morning in what amounts to one of Maryland's unemployment courts, employees and employers squared off at conference tables to rehash reports of bad customer service, anger management and absenteeism.

    "I couldn't believe it," said Kenneth M. Brown, who lost his job as a hotel electrician in October.

    He began collecting benefits of $380 a week but then discovered that his former employer, the owners of the Gaylord National Resort and Convention Center, were appealing to block his unemployment benefits. The hotel alleged that he had been fired for being deceptive with a supervisor.

    "A big corporation like that.... It was hard enough to be terminated," he said. "But for them to try to take away the unemployment benefits - I just thought that was heartless."

    After a Post reporter turned up at the hearing, the hotel's representative withdrew the appeal and declined to comment. A hotel spokesperson later said the company does not comment on legal matters. Brown will continue to collect benefits, which he, his wife and three young children rely on to make monthly mortgage payments on their Upper Marlboro home.

    Unemployment compensation programs are administered by the states and funded by payroll taxes that employers pay. In 2007, employers put up about $31.5 billion in such taxes, and those taxes typically rise during and after recessions, as states seek to replenish the funds.

    With each successful claim raising a company's costs, many firms resist letting employees collect the benefit if they consider it undeserved.

    "In some of these cases, employers feel like there's some matter of principle involved," said Coleman Walsh, chief administrative law judge in Virginia, who has handled many such disputes. But, he said, "nowadays it appears their motivation has more to do with the impact on their unemployment insurance tax rate. Employers by and large are more aware of unemployment as a cost of business."

    The cost of unemployment insurance has created an industry of "third-party agents" - companies that specialize in helping employers deal with the unemployment insurance administration. These firms represent employers in disputes with former employees over jobless benefits.

    One of the largest is TALX, a St. Louis company active in the Washington area, which claims more than 8,000 clients.

    The company's Web site says that it removes "over $6 billion in unemployment claims liability annually."

    Joyce Dear, chief operations officer for tax management services at TALX, said firms such as hers help bring to light the issues surrounding an employee's departure.

    "You are limited to what is permissible," she said. "What an employer can do is provide the facts around a separation. The awarding of the benefits is in the hands of the state."

    Wayne Vroman, a researcher at the Urban Institute, has documented the rise of challenges to unemployment claims using the Labor Department data. He found that the proportion of claims challenged on the basis of misconduct has more than doubled, to 16 percent, since the late 1980s. Claims disputed on the grounds that the worker simply quit represent about 10 percent of the otherwise eligible applications.

    Even as more employers have alleged employee misconduct, their success rate has stayed relatively stable - they lose on such issues about two-thirds of the time.

    "What is clear is that employers have become more willing to contest claims from claimants," Vroman said of the data.

    Hearing officers and others in the industry said it isn't clear why the number of challenges to unemployment claims has grown. The labor force has changed over the years, with less of it devoted to manufacturing and more of it from the service sector.

    Some suggested the rise in disputed benefits stems from the fact that it is easier today for employers to track claims and try to block those they consider unwarranted.

    "Automation has contributed to the ease with which protests from the employer can be filed," said Doug Holmes, president of UWC Strategy, a group that claims large and small employers among its members and represents their interests in unemployment matters.

    Others speculated that changes in the law have made it easier for employers to block unemployment claims.

    Rick McHugh, a staff attorney for the National Employment Law Project who began handling such cases in the 1970s, said court rulings have slowly enlarged the definition of employee misconduct, making it easier for employers to say they rightfully fired a worker.

    "The courts are just not showing as much sympathy for employees who get fired," he said. "There's a higher standard of behavior that is expected of employees."

    For example, back in 1941, the Wisconsin Supreme Court considered the case of a cab driver who'd had three accidents in two weeks and also shorted the company on a 40 cent fare, turning in only 25 cents.

    The court ruled that the driver was entitled to unemployment benefits because unintentionally careless or shoddy work did not constitute misconduct. It's unlikely, McHugh said, that the case would be determined the same way today.

    In many states, hearings are held daily on unemployment claims. The outcome most often turns on whether the former employee was guilty of misconduct.

    With employees and employers as adversaries, it's often difficult to determine the facts of a case, and just as difficult at times to separate misconduct from incompetence, which is not a reason to withhold the benefits.

    During a day of hearings this week in Wheaton, human resources personnel sat across tables from former employees, and the discussion often turned to written warnings, company handbooks and who-told-what-to-whom.

    A former assistant manager at RI Ra, an Irish Bar in Bethesda, fended off complaints that, among other things, he'd failed to greet guests at the door and one time poured a beer for himself after hours.

    A Verizon technician was charged with, in company terms, "detour and frolic."

    And a former salesman at Ethan Allen complained that there was no way he could have made his $35,000 sales quota - and that's why he quit.

    "It's almost like a daily soap opera - but it's real life," veteran hearing examiner Scott Karp said. "In this economic climate, the threshold for what employers consider minimum acceptable behavior has changed. They decide they're not going to put up with it anymore, so they start documenting the employee's behavior and often enough, the issue winds up here."




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I am gone, outta here. Like I said, I offered to leave before and was asked to stay. SM
Since you have become the board monitor, I am out of here.  And I don't care what you believe.  A poster who no longer comes here was wished to die and burn in hell.  Lots of other people saw it.  In fact, I commented on it and I believe Suzie and maybe vs did.  Not sure.  Anyway, it happened. Outta here.....whoosh::::::::::::::::::::::::
Grasping the straw outta that hippity-hop nose!
It's a freakin' joke! I guess religion went on a fire sale so now it's going to be hip-hop! What a pile!
I'm sorry for your bad luck, but...
I don't think the minorities in Georgia have it better than the white people.

I have a good friend who is black and he has not worked in 3 years due to an injury on the job. He is getting by on $173 a week from Workman's Compensation. He cannot get food stamps.

I have another friend who is repeatedly passed over for promotions for white folks to get the jobs even though he has been on the job now for over 8 years and then has to help train the new-hire white boys to take the job he was passed over for.

I am white and I got a scholarship to college just fine when I decided I wanted to return to school this year.

I think you are just a racist!
LOL! Good Luck!

 In case you are the same *Teddy* who posted on the Conservative Board in the last week or two, you should know that the same *friendly* group of people you encountered there the other day also accused you of being me. 


At any rate, welcome to the Liberal Board. 


With a little luck, maybe her plane will
and will CRASH, instead. That way the election could focus on the issues once again.
as I said, good luck with that...SP is same old...
this is the same old culture war, and the republicans have played women like we are stupid. as far as approval rating, people are afraid to go against Sara in Alaska because they have seen her wrath. she gets people fired etc etc.

like I said, SP is same old. I have seen too many women like her and all they do is control and manipulate to their own needs and desires.

Christians are supposed to be meek, not calling for war already. I especially find distasteful people who use their religions to gain power.

...oh and it is okay to call Obama right out a wolf in sheep's clothing, but not say anything negative about she who would hide behind being a woman -

who wrote this post, a man? when did women get so aggressive and want to be men so much, anyway.

you think you are 'doing it all' - yeah, all and half the quality.

you praise this woman because she can give birth? How does she manage her family, lets her daughter get pregnant, and perhaps worse?

yeah, you do it all all-right, and everything is half-#@!?. What a role model! Let go back to work 3 days after having a baby, let our daughters be sexually abused by men while we run around pretending we are so important...
good luck
with my conversion. Not a lot of Jews converting today, especially to evangelical beliefs. But you keep trying, lol.
Be very, very careful with what you wish for. I wish you luck with all your
I doubt very much anyone with any true intelligence will truly like the way we are about to go, should Obama win the white house
Good luck with that, then, if you truly believe him....sm
I never said I agreed with what's been happening on the wall street agenda, however, as usual, the democrats are rewriting the bill they signed, and it now looks nothing like it did when it passed, even though that was the wrong thing to do.

Now, we have to give a helping hand to everyone under the sun.

If that's not socialism, and marxism is right behind, especially when he shuts the media up for asking questions, look out.

You're getting more than they're telling you about, and I guarantee you, you will not be all warm and cuddly, when all that comes down to pass.


But again, believe as you want to believe. Perhaps you are voting your emotions, along with the masses, after all.


Good luck with that.
x
They'd have more luck unloading these if
they'd include a pinup of a terrorist kitty or 2.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s22/darju/kitty.jpg

http://www.dcmodding.com/main/images/stories/sniper_kitty.jpg

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/Kosher.Kitty.jpg



Good luck with all that hate. sm
And that is what it is just pure hatred.  No Democrat I know would go near where you are.  That isn't fighting.  It's not even smearing.  It's no class gutterball and it has no benefit whatsoever to anyone. 
Good luck, LVMT
All jobs take a while to get used to.  I'm sure you'll do very well in a very short time.  Hope you come back soon.
Good luck with your daughter! sm
I have kids are older than yours and while there has not been a pregnancy, there have been other issues we have worked through that floored me and shocked me, but we got through them.

I have several friends whom are excellent parents, involved, church going, teach values ...could not ask for more.

guess what???

Their kids drink, try drugs, have sex and yes, indeed, some have gotten pregnant. I am not saying ALL teenagers do, because that is not true, BUT many, many do.

IMHO, embracing it and loving your child when something like this happens is called unconditional love. It does NOT mean that you condone it or approve. But what is done, is done.

p.s. (joke)
just how do her parents "allow it?"

I wish the best of luck to our incoming president...sm
President Barack Obama.


I want to take the high road, and give him the chance he deserves, without all the pettiness and prejudice I see displayed against our current, outgoing president.



I wish the best to you all on this board, as well, both left and right, and all in between.


I wish the best for our country, and that includes President Obama.


I wish him well, and hope he is guided well on his path and his choices for our country.





Twice as old, nope, just good luck
Gosh, you sure are touchy when it cones to the fact you apparently have made some poor judgements and now stuck with a home you cannot sell. My homes come from money I have received from family, stocks, investments- I have been blessed because I do not make bad investments like others. With your last statement I can just imagine your sticking out your tongue, like a child does and saying nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.
Heartening story. Good luck to you. But
the problem is with the system.  There are abusers and it is mismanaged.  Not everyone is an abuser, obviously, but being from a small town I can't tell you how many people I know that accept welfare and then to see what they spend it on is ridiculous.  There has got to be some accountablilty there and make sure those that truly need the program get it and those that have the ability to, to get off their behinds and get a job or training to get a job.
Yeah, and rub your luck rabbit foot...sm
While you're at it! It'll do JUST much good. Silly people. Let go of your ancient superstitions and move into reality with the rest of us.
Good luck trying to convince O lovers they;re
aa
Au contraire. I've had really good luck
most recent example would be my 18-year marriage to a rough, tough tom cat 14 years my junior.
No such luck, GP. All that fake congrats this morning
was just a bunch of hooey to lull us into a belief that they actually meant it.  If fact, it has really escalated through the day.  I'm thinking maybe they all just need to get ****!!
thanks again Babe! Good luck voting for McSame/Falin...SM
ROFLMAO
That could work, PK.

but hey where do you work now
exMQMT? if you do not mind that is.  Thanks! 
Sam, please let me know where you work.
I am an excellent MT who would love to have enough free time to post messages on this board all day long, but the companies I work for require me to spend most of my day transcribing. I would love to find a company who would allow me the freedom that you have to spend hour-after-hour posting to my little heart's desire. Please point me in the right direction, as I would love to be as free as you are to repeatedly force my opinions on everyone who reads the MTStars board. You can e-mail me if you would like to keep this confidential. I want to be just like you!!!!!
no thanks, does not work for me.
I will never agree with you no matter what you say or do on this board -

As far as taxing rich democrats, I remember President Clinton objecting to not being taxed and coming forward that he was against that from the beginning.

{You really think it is fair for those who have been successful to redistribute their money to other people? Be punished for success? I do not get that mindset}

- hey you are trying to convince someone who is older than 50 that I do not deserve anything for my hard work for some 30+ years, not going to happen.

I am from the days when employers had to pay you what you were worth, health insurance, full benefits, etc etc. You will never ever convince me I am better off just by repeating it over and over.

Sorry, not interested in any how, any way or, any time for rich corps to have the right to make me work twice as hard for less, so they can send the majority of work overseas to avoid paying people decent wages or by contributing anything except by their own will to anything in this country at their own discretion. If I am forced to pay taxes, they should be also.

trickle down theory, what has trickled down to the middle class but hardship, suffering, back to slave labor and poor working conditions...

Sending work overseas and all the side-effects from that directly affects me and my family and our quality of life.

Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice - not.
I have done all the work.....all you have to do
xx
Not quite sure how that will work
but I think he meant that they would look at the value of a house and renegotiate the mortgage based on the new value of the house since values have gone down.  That way people aren't upside down with owing more than their home is worth.  He isn't just going to buy up and pay for these mortgages. 
I know who most will have to work for
The government.....sadly enough. That is socialism for ya!!!!!
And those that do not work get all of BOTH of
@@
Won't ever work

It's not the law-abiding hunter gun owners that you have to worry about.  The bad guys will always find a way to get a gun, just like drugs.  It doesn't matter what kind of law there is in place.  Those laws just punish the rest of us. 


 


I don't know how this should work......nm
Then the whole responsibility would be with the people.
okay .. i have to get to work
you want to research it

the one I am talking about was posted the day after the election

and it was changed on saturday or sunday ...

the site I saw the images posted has archived that and I am not sure how to retreive it.

believe me or not, it is your choice.

and this "change" is just another reason I remain skeptical about the future administration.

peace out ..

work on your

excessive focus on what "they" think and do.  Spend more time on what you think and do.  Works everytime.


 


What I work on...
Working 2 full-time jobs 90+ hours a week, excessive focus on paying my own bills and staying afloat. Not much time for much else but sleep. Truth is truth, the reality is what it is, you know.
do you work in the

overused cliches department proliferation section?


 


If they don't work....(sm)
then they obviously need help making them work.  Hence....funding.
You are probably right. SOME MT work may
nm
and, obviously, you don't work!
x
So you don't work?
Must not. And you think the KKK is gone? lol - sure you're black, uh-huh. whatever. Now I'm supposed to kiss your @$$? yeah, right.
Even those who work sometimes have
to get gov't assistance. Not all are lazy good for nothings as you depict, many are the elderly or the disabled. Who cares what they buy to eat.
I use to work for SS and if you are sm
an adult who has never paid in or do not have enough working credits you cannot draw SS disability. You can draw what is called SSI which is a social security supplement paid through your state to folks who don't qualify for SS or don't get enough.

Kids who get SS like Octomoms kids are getting SSI unless its a situation where a parent who was working died, then there are death benefits for minor children.

IF there is no SS for you when you retire it is not because of what people who are drawing it now are getting it is becasue our government has robbed the SS fund. Your SS benefits are based on what you have made in your lifetime. If the fund is still there and the government doesn't take it all, you will get exactly the amount you are suppose to get based on what you have made in your life time.

As far as these lawyers advertising to get benefits for folks who are depressed, alcoholic, whatever.......these people, again, cannot get regular SS disability benefits if they have not worked and paid in. These commercials don't tell you that. The attorneys can fight for SSI (the supplement) for their clients but not disability SS if not worked and paid in.

As far as someone with depression drawing benefits, there are many folks out there who suffer from debilitating depression who do deserve these benefits and are totally disabled. I do know the type you are talking about though, the deadbeats who draw benefits and then do everything else under the sun. I have seen it also. Then I have seen people with strokes and totally disabled who have to fight like dogs to get what they are entitled to. Its ridiculous. I just wanted to clear up the different funds that money come from.

Bottom line is for the regular SS disability benefit, if you have not worked and paid into it, you cannot draw it. You may be able to draw from SSI through your state but that is basically welfare and you have to qualify financially for that unlike social security disability.
I use to work for SS and if you are sm
an adult who has never paid in or do not have enough working credits you cannot draw SS disability. You can draw what is called SSI which is a social security supplement paid through your state to folks who don't qualify for SS or don't get enough.

Kids who get SS like Octomoms kids are getting SSI unless its a situation where a parent who was working died, then there are death benefits for minor children.

IF there is no SS for you when you retire it is not because of what people who are drawing it now are getting it is becasue our government has robbed the SS fund. Your SS benefits are based on what you have made in your lifetime. If the fund is still there and the government doesn't take it all, you will get exactly the amount you are suppose to get based on what you have made in your life time.

As far as these lawyers advertising to get benefits for folks who are depressed, alcoholic, whatever.......these people, again, cannot get regular SS disability benefits if they have not worked and paid in. These commercials don't tell you that. The attorneys can fight for SSI (the supplement) for their clients but not disability SS if not worked and paid in.

As far as someone with depression drawing benefits, there are many folks out there who suffer from debilitating depression who do deserve these benefits and are totally disabled. I do know the type you are talking about though, the deadbeats who draw benefits and then do everything else under the sun. I have seen it also. Then I have seen people with strokes and totally disabled who have to fight like dogs to get what they are entitled to. Its ridiculous. I just wanted to clear up the different funds that money come from.

Bottom line is for the regular SS disability benefit, if you have not worked and paid into it, you cannot draw it. You may be able to draw from SSI through your state but that is basically welfare and you have to qualify financially for that unlike social security disability.

Also if the government stops borrowing from SS and wasting it, you will get exactly what you worked and paid into. you can determine that by looking at your SS statement you get every year.
What works for you may not work
If you are a good Christian, good for you; be a shining example of your faith. But if in the process of being a good Christian you trample MY rights and/or faith, well, sorry, that isn't good. THAT is why I believe in the separation of church and state. We are all different and have different levels of development, spiritual and otherwise. God is the ONLY and ultimate judge; I believe we all come before Him to account for our lives. My relationship with God is between Him and me...no one else. I don't think it is the job of my fellow humans to judge me and and tell me, *My religion/faith is better than yours* I don't care how much YOU believe it.
I can't get the video to work...sm
But I read an interview on the web where he talks about the clash of civilizations. Will read more on what he has to say. I will agree this has gotten far bigger than politics - far.

For the record, I don't hate Bush I just don't think he is the best choice for president.
Thank you very much for such a good work
Congratulations on a great web site. I am a new computer user and finding you was like coming home. Continued success.
Hopefully the link will work
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TCR-ABC-Path.mov




Works for me. But it will never work for you and we all know it. nm
nm
Link did not work, here it is sm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhh89RVs3ps&mode=related&search=
Oh well, I guess it's not going to work....
You can find the same piece on the 2nd page of the MQ board (11/15) under "Christmas off???...What luck!!!!  it seems to work there just fine. 
That ought to work well for you, at least for tonight.
nm