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The Iraqi war has further destabilized the middle east. It has....sm

Posted By: Democrat on 2006-07-19
In Reply to: That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. None. nm - MT

But obviously you don't think so so tell us how it has helepd to stabilize the region?


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These are the 16 countries in the Middle East...s/m
Countries in the Middle East, they are all Arab
States, except Israel and Iran.

Bahrain

Gaza Strip

Iran

Iraq

Israel

Jordan

Kuwait

Lebanon

Oman

Qatar

Saudi Arabia

Syria

United Arab Emirates

West Bank

Yemen




I followed the news about the Middle East.

Good that the pro-western coalition won. This for everybody involved. What I read is that Hezbullah was not very eager to win the election, too much responsibility. What Hezbullah wants is to keep the veto right.

We will see who wins in Iran.
Freedom agenda in the Middle East?

Did Bush campaign promising a freedom agenda in the Middle East?  I must have missed that during the debates.  In fact, he specifically said he was against nation building when he debated Gore, although in all fairness, he didn't say he was against nation wrecking.


I guess he doesn't understand that the decider created more suiciders than he got rid of.


I can't wait to see how his base spins the long awaited truth from Bush's own lips that there were no WMDs and that Iraq had no ties to 9/11.


May God help us all.


No, if those who do not push for peace in the Middle East sm
establishing a democracy and fighting terrorists there rather than here, if those people are wrong, we will all suffer.  It is certainly much broader than that.  As far as why we don't just get in and kick butt and get out, well, there was a time when we would have.  Now, there are too many liberal watchdogs who on one hand say they support the troops and with the other cut their Achillles tendon.  Forced to fight a PC war, we can never win this.  That's my take on it.
Wow, your ignorance about the Middle East is frightening. sm
But not surprising.
Obama's "buddies" in the middle east....sm
Are a figment of your imagination. You must be watching too much "Hannity's America." I watched Hannity's show about Obama last night, (even though I think Hannity's a doofus, to put it mildly) and I found myself thinking two main things:

1. There was not a shred of objectivity in the whole thing. Not that I expected there would be, but something so cleary biased makes be discount the whole thing. It was all innuendo and insinuation. It was pitiful, but if people get nothing but a steady diet of that kind of garbage, no wonder they think as they do. Garbage in, garbage out.

2. Maybe you're not aware of it if you're a Repub, but all of this "quesionable relationship" BS was dealt with months ago, during the Dem primaries. Don't you think that if there was anything to it, Hillary Clinton would've been able to bring Obama down with it? Didn't happen. There's just no "there" there.

And I am not personally offended by your Muslim comment, as I am not Muslim. I was simply pointing out that it was offensive, and racist. I think unfortunately that comments like yours are a sign of things to come, as McCain signals that it's okay. I find it sickening that's he's willing to take things into the gutter in this way, and the damage it will cause our country in his desperation to win.
Obama's middle east tour...(sm)

Has anyone else noticed what's going on in the middle east with elections?  I don't think I would credit all this to just Obama's speech in Cairo, but my guess is that his example (and ours by electing him) has been noticed around the world.


The "pro-Western coalition" won in Lebanon, beating out Hezbollah.


"The leader of the largest bloc in the pro-Western coalition, Saad Hariri, said early Monday in a televised speech that he extends his hand to the losing side "to work together and seriously for the sake of Lebanon." He urged supporters to celebrate without provoking opponents."  (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/07/lebanon-election-results-_n_212359.html)


And how about Iran?  Check this out.  This looks familiar.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/31210578#31210578


Maybe there's something to be said for extending a hand of peace instead of pointing a rifle. 


Paulson requested Asia and Middle East
And suggested that maybe it was up to them now to have a lower savings rate and a higher consumption rate.

I think he is putting them on notice that any further losses they will have to take and will not be covered by the government. I also think he is putting the US companies on notice that if they are borrowing from Asia and the middle east and issue credit default swaps they will have to cover them from now on.

Actually, this sounds like an "intervention" show where the parent is lecturing the drug dealer to stay away from their kid, the credit addict.
Obama sends more troops to the middle east
Obama sends 17,000 more troops to Afghanistan.

Obama's campaign speech: "As President of the United States I will start withdrawing troops from the middle east within 60 days of taking office".

Why am I surprised?

Everytime he speaks all I can hear is that Thompson Twin song "Lies"

Lies, lies, lies, yeah
Lies, lies, lies, yeah
Lies, lies, lies, yeah
I absolutely disagree that we as Americans cannot have an opinion about the Middle East. sm
You may be one of the few Jews who never liked Sharon.  He was one of their biggest war heroes of all time and everyone loved him, that being in the past tense.  The significance of the Gaza strip and its buffer of safety for the Israelis is not a minor point.  It is huge.  When the Jews left the Gaza strip, they leveled it.  It will not be rebuilt because, of course, Hamas did not want to live on the land, they simply wanted to take it away from the Jews.  Do we see footage of them frantically rebuilding the Gaza strip?  I haven't seen any, have you?  Hamas are gathering their arsenal.  They will march toward Jerusalem.  As a Jew, I don't understand your blase thinking on this in any way, nor do I understand your disregard for Biblical prophecy that all of this portends. 
As long as US keeps sticking it's nose into Middle East politics
their puppet of destabilization, these unfortunate incidents will continue unabated. The oil belongs to them. It's our problem, not theirs.
Israel's "occupation" of their land is the most godly thing in the middle east.

Israel needs the help of no one.  They will always prevail because they are backed by God -- the one true God.  All those who come against the people of Israel will suffer loss.  It is not out of fear that Israel arms itself, it is out of a deep understanding of their past, present, and future revealed to them by God.  Israel is loved by God and hated by their muslim neighbors because of that fact. 


There is no Palestine.  As I said before, the palestinians are squatters.  Claiming a land that never belong to them and never will be promised to them.  Their name is not on the lease! 


Oh yes, closer attention to their oil assets in the Middle East.....remember those invisible weapons
nm
Bush won't meet with border officials despite evidence of Middle East infiltration through Mexico


Article Launched: 6/16/2006 12:00 AM


Bush declines to meet with border officials


Sara A. Carter, Staff Writer


San Bernardino County Sun


President Bush has refused to meet with border law-enforcement officials from Texas for a second time. His response to their request came in the form of a letter Monday, angering both lawmakers and sheriffs.


In fact, some Republican members of the House, upset by what they call the administration's seeming lack of concern for border security, are preparing to hold investigative hearings in San Diego and Laredo, Texas, early next month.


Members of the House Subcommittee on International Terrorism and Nonproliferation hope to expose serious security flaws that could potentially lead to terrorist attacks in the country, said Rep. Ted Poe, R-Texas, who is a member of the panel and has pushed for the hearings.


The next terrorist is not going to come in through (Transportation Security Administration) screening at Kennedy airport, Poe said. We already have information that people from the Middle East have come through the border from Mexico. They assimilate in Mexico learning to speak Spanish and adopt customs and then they cross the border into the United States.


Poe requested the meeting for members of the Southwestern Sheriffs' Border Coalition a group that includes all 26 border-county sheriffs from California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas. The sheriffs wanted to speak to the president about the increasing dangers in their communities and along the border.


The president is the busiest man in the world but he needs to take the time to talk to the border sheriffs and learn what's happening in the real world from them, Poe said. We can't understand why he refuses to meet with them.


In May, all of the Republican House members from Texas traveled to Washington to meet the president regarding border security. Bush did not meet with them, however, and former White House spokesman Scott McClellan was sent in his stead.


Poe said the White House letter dated Monday showed the disconnect between the administration and the American people who want the border secured.


The president would appreciate the opportunity to visit with border sheriffs, said the White House letter written by La Rhonda M. Houston, deputy director of the Office of Appointments and Scheduling. Regrettably, it will not be possible for us to arrange such a meeting. I know that you understand with the tremendous demands of the president's time, he must often miss special opportunities, as is the case this time.


Rick Glancey, spokesman for the sheriffs coalition, said its members are angry and disappointed in the president's response. Glancey said Bush's recent tour of the border with Border Patrol spokesmen did not reflect the reality of what locals live with every day.


It's a slap in the face to the hardworking men and women on the front lines of rural America who every day engage in border-security issues, Glancey said. He missed the opportunity to take off his White House cowboy boots and put some real cowboy boots on and walk in our shoes for a few minutes.


The border hearings will expose the truth to the American public and force the administration to take a serious look at the border, said Allan Knapp, Poe's legislative director.


Knapp and Poe have traveled twice to the border this year, spending time along barren stretches where they witnessed no security and numerous migrants crossing into the United States, they said.


We need to expose the lack of border security before it is too late, Poe said. We're fighting a war on terror in Iraq and we're winning, but we're losing our own border war. These hearings will be a necessary step in the right direction.


Andy Ramirez, chairman of the Chino-based Friends of the Border Patrol, said he has been called to testify before the panel in San Diego. Ramirez said he has turned in two years of Border Patrol documents and memos, which he will discuss before the committee.


The president has basically pushed his whole administration's agenda toward the war on terror, yet he can't find the time to meet with law-enforcement leaders responsible for border security, Ramirez said. It is appalling and outrageous that the war on terror and border security does not extend to the U.S. border.


Oh, I feel you. I don't know which is better for the Iraqi's, b/c what is usually reported is sm
the military casualties, not the civilian casualties in Iraq.

Fox News did report this week about a military man whose family was murdered, wife and children while he was out working. That's awful, that's terror. When I hear stories like that I do think of the terror the people are experiencing due to this war, but they did have it bad under Sadaam. They're in a catch 22.

Iraqi death toll....sm

See link for full article below.

 

*According to the graph, Iraqi civilians and security forces were killed and wounded by insurgents at a rate of about 26 a day early in 2004, and at a rate of about 40 a day later that year. The rate increased in 2005 to about 51 a day, and by the end of August had jumped to about 63 a day.

Extrapolating the daily averages over the months from Jan. 1, 2004, to Sept. 16 of this year results in a total of 25,902 Iraqi civilians and security forces killed and wounded by insurgents.*


Detained Iraqi children

Okay, this is about as disturbing as it gets.  I came across this thread on the Democratic Underground website:


Source: AFP

Agence France-Presse

BAGHDAD -- US troops are holding nearly 950 children and teenagers in a military prison at a Baghdad base, some as young as 10, a top commander said Monday.

Brigadier General Michael Nevin of US military police said many of these youngsters, mainly 15, 16 or 17 years of age are illiterate and have been detained for planting bombs and even for "picking up a gun and firefighting."

...

"These juveniles have been involved in something that is perceived as a security threat to Iraq or coalition forces," Nevin told Agence France-Presse during a tour of Camp Cropper.

...

"In January we had around 100 juveniles. Now we have around 950," Nevin said.

...

One of the commanders at Camp Cropper, Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm McMullen, said the juveniles were now part of a wide-ranging educational program launched by the military.

"Many of them come from broken homes with no education," he said.


So, curious as to what type of educational program launched by the military, as I thought it funny this little tibit of information was left out, I came across this:


http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2007/11/10/9066.shtml


I think we need to dig further.


Obama and Iraqi oil for food...
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/obamas_iraqi_oil_for_food_conn.html
A blog by an Iraqi about his homeland and Democracy. sm
I read this every day until he stopped posting.  It's very informative and not something seen in the MSM.  There are other links there that are still active.
This is my first time hearing protestors against the Iraqi war...sm
getting soldiers killed??

This is not Vietnam. We are not trying to stop communism from spreading (not that I would have agreed with that then). This is supposedly to stop WMD, then to spread democracy to the Iraqi people, and now because there was a connection to al Queda.

The loss of live was tremendous in Vietnam compared to the Iraqi war. If we had lost the number of troops we did in Vietnam, I would be in Washington sitting on the lawn myself.

Not sure this answered your question, you have to explain your question further??
Iraqi terrorist training camps?
Links between Saddam's regime and al-Qaeda, as claimed by the Bush Administration (which formed a crucial part of the WMD justification for the Iraq invasion), were non-existent or exaggerated, according to the report of both the United States Government's 9/11 Commission and the Pentagon.  There was never any real proof of training camps in Iraq.  As far as terrorists having been in Iraq at one time or another....it's a middle eastern country.....they were way down toward the bottom of the list of terrorist hang-outs.
Iraqi Soldiers Speak Out in Favor of Murtha

On January 5, 2006, Congressman Murtha held a town hall meeting with Cong. Jim Moran (D-VA 08).


The soldier who asked the first question served in Afghanistan and said that morale among troops is high and that he would gladly serve in Iraq today. His comment was the only one replayed by Fox News the next day.

But the majority of soldiers in attendance spoke out against the current policy. Fox News did not broadcast their remarks.


Here are some excerpts.


John Brumes, Infantry Sgt. US Army:


Everything that the Bush Adminstration told us about that mission in Iraq is absolutely incorrect. Furthermore, I'd like to say ... I came home to no job, no health insurance. Until we take care of this war, we can't take care of the problems that matter like health care.

I've witnessed both ends... Congressman Murtha, I implore you to keep doing what you're doing.



John Powers, Capt. 1st Armored Division, served 12 months in Iraq:


The thing that hits me the most is the accountability. ... Where is the accountability for those men [who took us to war], as well as where is the accountability for Paul Bremmer, who misplaced millions of dollars and claims to keep accountability in the war zone?... I know that if we lost $500 we would be court marshaled. So where is the accountability for this leadership?

Garin Reppenhagen, served as a sniper in Iraq for a year in the First Infantry Division:


My question is also about accountability. The soldiers that you see, Congressman Murtha, at the hospitals... those are my friends. After coming back, being a veteran, my question is why? Why did we go to this war, why the hell did it happen, why are we in this condition. A lot of soldiers are debating whether this war was fraudulent to begin with. And there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. A lot of Americans now are debating the fact over whether or not the war was fraudulent in the first place. How come there hasn't been an investigation on the fraudulent lead up to the war by this Administration?

C-SPAN has the full broadcast here.



 

Iraqi Colleagues Killed U.S. Soldiers, Military Says

And 19 Republican senators and a conservative poster crashing this this board think that monsters like this should receive amnesty for killing our soldiers.  Unbelievable.







Iraqi colleagues killed U.S. soldiers, military says





SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Two California soldiers shot to death in Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found.


The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.


But the Army's Criminal Investigation Command found that one or more of the Iraqis attached to the American soldiers on patrol fired at them, a military official said Tuesday. (Watch a mother's quest for truth -- 1:26)


A Pentagon spokesman knew of no other similar incident, calling it extremely rare.


The Army has conducted an extensive investigation into the deaths but declined to provide details out of respect for relatives of the soldiers, spokesman Paul Boyce said Tuesday evening.


It was unclear whether the investigators had established a motive or arrested any suspects.


The families of McCaffrey and Tyson were to be briefed on the report's conclusions Tuesday and Wednesday by Brig. Gen. Oscar Hilman, the soldiers' commander at the time, and three other officers.


When they come I have my list of questions ready, and I want these answers and I don't want lies, McCaffrey's mother, Nadia McCaffrey, said.


Soldiers who witnessed the attack have told her that two Iraqi patrolmen opened fire on her son's unit. The witnesses also said a third gunman simultaneously drove up to the American unit in a van, climbed onto the vehicle and fired at the Americans, she said.


Nothing is clear. Nothing is clear, she said. Her son was shot eight times by bullets of various calibers, some of which penetrated his body armor, she said. She believes he bled to death.


Nadia McCaffrey has become a vocal critic of the war in Iraq, and said her son had reservations about it, too, though he served well and was promoted posthumously to sergeant.


I really want this story to come out; I want people to know what happened to my son, she said. There is no doubt to me that this (ambushes by attached Iraqi units) is still happening to soldiers today, but our chain of command is awfully reckless; they don't seem to give a damn about what's happening to soldiers.


Iraqi forces who had trained with the Americans had fired at them twice before the incident that killed Patrick McCaffrey, and he had reported it to his superiors, she said.


Boyce said the U.S. military remained confident in its operations with Iraqis.


We continue to have confidence in our operations with Iraqi soldiers and have witnessed the evolution of a stronger fighting army for the Iraqi people, he said.


Patrick McCaffrey joined the National Guard the day after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, his mother said.


Tyson's family could not be located, and a message left with his former unit was not immediately returned.


McCaffrey, 34, and Tyson, 33, were members of the California National Guard. Both were assigned to the Army National Guard's 579th Engineer Battalion, based in Petaluma.


Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-California, pressed the Pentagon for answers about the case when Nadia McCaffrey was unsatisfied by explanations from the military.


Mrs. McCaffrey is set to receive a briefing from Pentagon officials (Wednesday) afternoon in California, during which we hope they will provide her with a full report of the facts surrounding Sgt. McCaffrey's death, said Natalie Ravitz, a Boxer spokeswoman.



Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.












 
 









 
Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/21/soldiers.ambushed.ap/index.html
 

Raped Iraqi woman feared US troops...sm
I don't usually post reports of the bad side of US soldiers in Iraq because I believe the most of them are doing their jobs with integrity, so even after reading this it is still hard to believe. Thanks to the brave soldiers who spoke out against their comrades. This story reminds me of some of the bad stories I've heard of Vietnam.

Please somebody say it aint so...
------------------------------------------
Raped Iraqi woman feared US troops: report
Mon Jul 3, 2006 07:06 AM ET

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A woman apparently at the center of a rape-murder probe by the U.S. military in Iraq was only 15 and voiced fears about soldiers' advances before she and her family were killed in March, the Washington Post said on Monday.

Quoting the mayor of Mahmudiya, near Baghdad, an unnamed hospital official and neighbors of the alleged victims, the newspaper named the woman, her parents and 7-year-old sister as having been killed in their home in the town on March 11.

The paper did not affirm the woman, Abeer Qasim Hamza, was killed by Americans, but local people quoted appeared to believe the dead family was the one involved in the U.S. investigation.

A U.S. military official in Baghdad told Reuters details of the incident they described were at odds with U.S. documents in the 10-day-old investigation of at least three soldiers. U.S. officials had the rape victim's age as 20, he said. However, he added, he was not aware of any other such cases in the area.

The U.S. military has given few details publicly. Officials say at least three soldiers are under investigation over the alleged rape of a woman and the killing of three relatives, including a child, in their home at Mahmudiya on March 12.

Two are suspected of rape and one of these, since discharged from the army, is also suspected of murder, officials said.

The Washington Post quoted Omar Janabi, who said he was a neighbor, saying Abeer Qasim's mother had told him on March 10 that the young woman had complained repeatedly about advances made toward her by U.S. soldiers at a nearby checkpoint.

Janabi told the newspaper he was one of the first people to arrive at the family house after the attack. He said he found Abeer sprawled dead in a corner, her hair and a pillow next to her consumed by fire, and her dress pushed up to her neck.

DEATH CERTIFICATES

The paper said death certificates from Mahmudiya hospital identified the victims as Abeer Qasim Hamza, 15, shot in the head and burned; her mother Fakhriyah Taha Muhsin, 34, killed by gunshots to her head; her father Qasim Hamza Raheem, 45, whose head was smashed by bullets; and Hadeel Qasim Hamza, 7.

The inquiry was launched after two soldiers from the 502nd Infantry Regiment came forward last month to make allegations about comrades. The killings had previously been recorded by the military as the work of guerrillas, U.S. officers say.

Local residents and officials in the area, one of the most dangerous and violent in Iraq, have offered Reuters reporters conflicting accounts of incidents involving U.S. troops.

Two years after the scandal over U.S. prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib jail and coming after a string of murder charges against U.S. troops and accusations over the killing of 24 people in the western city of Haditha, the rape allegation is potentially incendiary in Iraq's conservative Muslim society.

Iraq's main organization of Sunni Muslim clerics, long hostile to the U.S. occupation, said on Sunday the Mahmudiya case revealed the real, ugly face of America.

In recent months, officials say, commanders have cracked down on rogue soldiers in a bid to gain the trust of ordinary Iraqis and of their new government after three years of growing resentment that U.S. officers say risks fuelling the insurgency.
Iraqi PM says Reckles soldiers should stay home.

So much for all that *winning their hearts and minds* talk. 


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060706/wl_nm/iraq_maliki_dc_2


Reckless soldiers should stay home: Iraqi PM





By Ibon Villelabeitia


Thu Jul 6, 1:41 PM ET



Iraq's prime minister urged the U.S. military on Thursday to keep reckless troops from serving in Iraq in order to prevent abuses like the alleged rape and murder of a teenager and her family by U.S. soldiers in March.


Expanding on calls for an independent inquiry and a review of foreign troops' immunity from Iraqi law, Nuri al-Maliki said commanders should do a better job in preparing their soldiers.


There needs to be a plan to educate and train soldiers, and those who are brought to serve in Iraq shouldn't bear prejudices nor be reckless toward people's honor, Maliki said.


The U.S. military is investigating a group of its soldiers over the rape and killing of a family of four in Mahmudiya, south of the capital, in a case that has strained relations between Washington and Baghdad.


Former private Steven Green, 21, has been charged with rape and murder in a U.S. federal court. He had been discharged from the army because of a personality disorder before the case came to light.


At least three other soldiers are being investigated in the case.


The Mahmudiya incident and other incidents before that ... produce sadness, pain and condemnation from Iraqis, Maliki said.


IMMUNITY


Maliki, facing pressure from Shi'ites and Sunnis to hold Americans accountable, has slammed a U.S. occupation authority decree that grants immunity from Iraqi law for the 140,000 or so foreign troops in Iraq, saying it emboldens soldiers.


I think this matter has become necessary to review and solve, either by reviewing the issue of immunity or reviewing the nature of the investigating committees, he told reporters in Baghdad, a day after he first called for a review of the law.


The rape and murder case is the fifth in a high-profile series of U.S. inquiries into killings of Iraqi civilians in recent months and has outraged Iraqis.


American commanders, keen to repair the military's tarnished image after three years of complaints from Iraqis that U.S. abuses go unpunished, pressed murder charges against 12 military personnel last month. Marines are under investigation for the killing of 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha.


Iraqis have complained of Americans' lack of cultural sensitivity -- including searching women's rooms during raids or not taking their boots off when entering. Commanders say they are improving such procedures.


Though heavily dependent on America's military muscle, Maliki faces delicate negotiations with its main ally Washington over how to regulate the presence of the U.S.-led forces in Iraq, now under a U.N. mandate that expires in December.










Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.

Where was the concern of anyone when Saddam was killing the Iraqi people?
I must say, this is one of the most egregious of all arguments that is made in this country, or any country.  Saddam tortured, killed, maimed and raped his own people for decades and not a word was said.  Now with a chance for a free Iraq, this concern surfaces. Where was it all these years?
Afghanistan - war on Al Quaeda and Taliban; Iraqi FREEDOM - kill Saddam Hussein
Two different wars based on entirely different premises.........
yea? well someone w/middle name Hussein

I'm not voting for Hillary but....


know that it scares the heck outta me and others, Obama.......his middle name is hussein.....


one of the bibles say something to the effect of when the *stuff* happens (the bad stuff) - it's going to happen from the *inside out* -


but glad you are ALL so trusting.......i trust nobody 100%. 


i cannot stand ALL of these candidates this time around......


JMHO - no flames please


Middle class
Didn't McCain define "middle class" as anyone with $5 million???  How realistic is that?  I don't personally have, nor do I know anyone, who has $5 million. The "real" middle class is screwed with either of these clowns.
You have a problem with his middle name?
__
Yes he did in the middle of the night
:{
If the new middle class is $120,000 (sm)

Then my income will just push us into that bracket.  I wonder if that will negate my entire income?  If so, I guess we may be better off if I just quit? Right now I work because I can't afford to quit.  I won't be able to afford it then either so what will I do?  I wonder how many others will be in my situation? 


FYI, we live in a small older home that we are trying to pay off so that when our two children are college-age, maybe we can afford it. We don't live extravagently by any means.  What will happen to people like us?


Middle class? sm
If Obama is elected, that is something that our children's children will be reading about in a history book. It is fast disappearing and will be completely gone if Obama takes office.
Beacuse of his middle name?...sm
My middle name is Ellen.  Does that make me a lesbian?
Exactly! I love that he's using his middle name...
...and throwing all that fear and hatred right back in their faces!
A New Way To Tax the Middle Class

Just call it something besides a tax.


Who Pays for Cap and Trade?


Hint: They were promised a tax cut during the Obama campaign.Article


Cap and trade is the tax that dare not speak its name, and Democrats are hoping in particular that no one notices who would pay for their climate ambitions. With President Obama depending on vast new carbon revenues in his budget and Congress promising a bill by May, perhaps Americans would like to know the deeply unequal ways that climate costs would be distributed across regions and income groups.


Politicians love cap and trade because they can claim to be taxing "polluters," not workers. Hardly. Once the government creates a scarce new commodity -- in this case the right to emit carbon -- and then mandates that businesses buy it, the costs would inevitably be passed on to all consumers in the form of higher prices. Stating the obvious, Peter Orszag -- now Mr. Obama's budget director -- told Congress last year that "Those price increases are essential to the success of a cap-and-trade program."


Hit hardest would be the "95% of working families" Mr. Obama keeps mentioning, usually omitting that his no-new-taxes pledge comes with the caveat "unless you use energy." Putting a price on carbon is regressive by definition because poor and middle-income households spend more of their paychecks on things like gas to drive to work, groceries or home heating.


The Congressional Budget Office -- Mr. Orszag's former roost -- estimates that the price hikes from a 15% cut in emissions would cost the average household in the bottom-income quintile about 3.3% of its after-tax income every year. That's about $680, not including the costs of reduced employment and output. The three middle quintiles would see their paychecks cut between $880 and $1,500, or 2.9% to 2.7% of income. The rich would pay 1.7%. Cap and trade is the ideal policy for every Beltway analyst who thinks the tax code is too progressive (all five of them).


But the greatest inequities are geographic and would be imposed on the parts of the U.S. that rely most on manufacturing or fossil fuels -- particularly coal, which generates most power in the Midwest, Southern and Plains states. It's no coincidence that the liberals most invested in cap and trade -- Barbara Boxer, Henry Waxman, Ed Markey -- come from California or the Northeast.


Coal provides more than half of U.S. electricity, and 25 states get more than 50% of their electricity from conventional coal-fired generation. In Ohio, it totals 86%, according to the Energy Information Administration. Ratepayers in Indiana (94%), Missouri (85%), New Mexico (80%), Pennsylvania (56%), West Virginia (98%) and Wyoming (95%) are going to get soaked.


Another way to think about it is in terms of per capita greenhouse-gas emissions. California is the No. 2 carbon emitter in the country but also has a large economy and population. So the average Californian only had a carbon footprint of about 12 tons of CO2-equivalent in 2005, according to the World Resource Institute's Climate Analysis Indicators, which integrates all government data. The situation is very different in Wyoming and North Dakota -- paging Senators Mike Enzi and Kent Conrad -- where every person was responsible for 154 and 95 tons, respectively. See the nearby chart for cap and trade's biggest state winners and losers.


Democrats say they'll allow some of this ocean of new cap-and-trade revenue to trickle back down to the public. In his budget, Mr. Obama wants to recycle $525 billion through the "making work pay" tax credit that goes to many people who don't pay income taxes. But $400 for individuals and $800 for families still doesn't offset carbon's income raid, especially in states with higher carbon use.


All the more so because the Administration is lowballing its cap-and-trade tax estimates. Its stated goal is to reduce emissions 14% below 2005 levels by 2020, which assuming that four-fifths of emissions are covered (excluding agriculture, for instance), works out to about $13 or $14 per ton of CO2. When CBO scored a similar bill last year, it expected prices to start at $23 and rise to $44 by 2018. CBO also projected the total value of the allowances at $902 billion over the first decade, which is some $256 billion more than the Administration's estimate.


We asked the White House budget office for the assumptions behind its revenue estimates, but a spokesman said the Administration doesn't have a formal proposal and will work with Congress and "stakeholders" to shape one. We were also pointed to recent comments by Mr. Orszag that he was "sure there will be enough there to finance the things that we have identified" and maybe "additional money" too. In other words, Mr. Obama expects a much larger tax increase than even he is willing to admit.


Those "stakeholders" are going to need some very large bribes, starting with the regions that stand to lose the most. Led by Michigan's Debbie Stabenow, 15 Senate Democrats have already formed a "gang" demanding that "consumers and workers in all regions of the U.S. are protected from undue hardship." In practice, this would mean corporate welfare for carbon-heavy businesses.


And of course Congress is its own "stakeholder." An economy-wide tax under the cover of saving the environment is the best political moneymaker since the income tax. Obama officials are already telling the press, sotto voce, that climate revenues might fund universal health care and other new social spending. No doubt they would, and when they did Mr. Obama's cap-and-trade rebates would become even smaller.


Cap and trade, in other words, is a scheme to redistribute income and wealth -- but in a very curious way. It takes from the working class and gives to the affluent; takes from Miami, Ohio, and gives to Miami, Florida; and takes from an industrial America that is already struggling and gives to rich Silicon Valley and Wall Street "green tech" investors who know how to leverage the political class.


middle-aged.....nm
nm
So you think in the middle of a war, this is a good idea? sm
This perfectly illustrates that your hatred for Bush exceeds any care for the safety of Americans.  
Exactly! I don't give a darn WHAT his middle name is...
but I do care about who he is allied with, and have said numerous times that his pastor and mentor is very thick with Louis Farrakahn, and now Farrakhan has come out singing Obama's praises. Talk about hateful racist comments...Farrakhan is a virulent racist.
I agree, take the focus off of middle name, etc.
I agree with these posts, that putting any focus on a candidate's name is just ... well... embarrassing. A few days ago a poster said Obama's name made them "shudder." ??? I'm blown away by the fact that so many people buy into the fear-mongering going on. I'm more apt to listen to someone griping about Obama not seeming to have enough of a plan ... but his middle name? his skin color? all the other bogey-man antichrist nonsense. This stuff about his name and middle name, makes me too not want to even read the posts too.


I heard a conservative radio talk show the other day (Glen Beck) laughing about getting some email about Obama being the antichrist. Even HE was embarrassed and laughing about the pure insanity of sending this tripe around. If you really want a laugh, Google Bush being the antichrist...


Sam did not "leave out" the middle part...
I said "from what I understand." I did not know the middle part; I did not ignore it. Had not had time to research it. Boy, you are quick on the trigger aren't you??

But thanks for posting. I will research it when I have time.

And by the way, addicted people do lots of strange things. It is an addiction. Here awhile back one of the Kennedys...maybe Ted's nephew...the alcoholic one who ran his car over a post in DC...there were considerable strings pulled there too so he would not go to jail, everyone knew he was an alcoholic but it took getting in trouble with the law to straighten it out. What about Teddy and Mary Jo Kopechne? LOTS of strings pulled there. He left the scene of a accident that resulted in a fatality. Don't you think most of US would still be in jail?? He is still a senator, isn't he? People still vote for him, don't they? Let's keep this in perspective, shall we?
I am so totally middle america

and with only a high school diploma. I also believe in Christian values - the actual ones, not the ones that Dobson, Buchanan, et al., supposedly represent.  I do not get offended at the terms because I KNOW many uneducated women who only believe the slogans and information they get from Fox news. Trying to engage them in conversation results in heated statements like the terrorists are walking down every street and we need to fear, fear, fear.  I know that I actively investigate the issues.  Therefore, demographically, I am uneducated, but I take it upon myself to be informed. When Christians are mentioned, I am not offended because I myself can see the distortions and self-righteousness in their spokesmen. 


 


She actually grew up middle class
and made her own money. Then married Sir Rothschild. Why couldn't I have found a guy like that?!?
It is time we have someone speak for the middle
all of the tax breaks quite frankly.  I certainly DO NOT want my husband paying taxes on what is already a big chunk towards healthcare.  If McCain is veteran, which he is, then he need not worry about healthcare; he gets it.  I can take any more tax gouging to help him pay for his luxurious homes! 
The middle class has already all but disappeared under...sm
republican rule. Based on earnings, we have a huge lower class, a very small middle class, and a tiny upper class that makes over 90% of the income in the US.
Abuse of power is SP's middle name.
megalomaniac behaviors. I am particularly impressed by the "woman scorned" tantrum she had against her opponents that ensued within moments after she took office. Looks like Alaska's busy little ethics maid overlooked her own glass house.
The middle class needs to realize

that John McCain's economic plan is designed from the ground up to raise incomes and create jobs for Americans - especially middle-class Americans - and get our economy moving again. It is in sharp contrast to Barack Obama's plan, which does not treat the middle class well and which will reduce jobs rather than create them.


"The McCain tax plan will allow middle-class Americans to keep more of what they earn than the Obama tax plan. McCain will increase the exemption for children from $3,500 to $7,000 per child, and he will provide a refundable health care tax credit of $5,000 for every family. What does this mean for middle-class families? Consider a married couple, one of whom works, earning $55,000 plus employer-paid health insurance of $8,000, and who rent their home and have two young children. Under McCain's plan, this family would receive a tax refund of $2,087 for health care and other things. Under Obama's plan, including his proposed worker's credit, this same family would not get any tax refund; in fact, they will have to pay taxes of $1,213. That's a $3,300 advantage for that family with McCain's plan compared with Obama's.


McCain's plan also provides incentives for firms to hire more workers and to pay them more. He will stop penalizing American firms when they create jobs in America rather than overseas. The U.S. tax code now levies a tax of 35 percent on American firms, the second highest in the world. McCain would reduce the tax to 25 percent, an important reason why his plan creates more jobs than Obama's. Another reason is that McCain will not raise the tax on small businesses, as Obama's plan does. Under Obama's plan, the top marginal income tax rate, which many small businesses pay, will rise to over 50 percent, including his proposed 5 percent increase in the statutory rate, 3 percent for Medicare, 3 percent for Social Security, and 4 percent from the phase out of exemptions.


McCain's economic plan is comprehensive and helps the middle class in many other ways. By promoting domestic energy production, including nuclear power and exploration and production of oil and gas - which Obama has opposed - McCain will reduce the price of gasoline, electricity and heating oil. By promoting free-trade agreements, he will reduce taxes on job-creating exports and reduce the prices that middle- and lower-income families pay for food and clothing. In contrast, Sen. Obama opposes good trade agreements - voting against the Colombia free-trade agreement - that would create jobs in America."


That's a good point. I'm like you in the middle -nm
.....
Does the middle class ever get a break?

All I heard during Barrack Obama's campaign was how he was going to look out for the middle class and how Bush and McCain would do nothing more than make the rich richer.  Well, every time I turn on the news, I cringe.  All I see are crooks.  CEO crooks, rich crooks, and political crooks.  These crooks are getting rich off of taxpayers and we are getting nothing in return.  The initial bailout has done nothing.  The stock market is still extremely low.  The only good thing I've heard of late is that gas is below 2 dollars a gallon right now.  Now GM wants a bailout.  Their CEOs flying in on private jets and asking for a handout.  I truly do not want to get them one because I know it won't change anything.  However, it breaks my heart to think of the millions of people who will truly suffer from this....including my mother.


Now President-elect Obama still claims to be out there for the middle class, but I just don't see it.  His plans will do nothing more than to help the lower class.  The rich will survive as they are rich, but it will be the middle class who again takes the hit.  The more TV I watch, the more I see Obama as nothing more than a puppet of his political party. 


My husband is so stressed out about this economy and his business that he is losing sleep at night.  He had to fire someone yesterday to save costs which means he will have to work a lot more hours to cover for the person he had to let go which will add more stress and little to no downtime for him.  Not to mention the poor bloke he had to fire right before the holidays. 


I'm sitting here at my desk thinking about our monthly house payment and our two kids and I wonder how we will make it if my husband's boss decides to close his store.  Will he send him to another store or will he just let him go?  How will he find another job in this economy that would make enough money to pay our house payment?  What will happen to my mom if GM gets rid of legacy expenses and she loses my dad's pension and her health benefits.  What happens to my brother when his factory goes under and he is left with three kids and a wife to support? 


Is anyone else literally sick to their stomach about all of this?  I feel like I could just hurl and then I turn TV on and see all these crooks and I just want to scream.  I've tried to stay positive and I've tried to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but his pal Bill Clinton is the one who started the housing crisis by forcing bad loans to be given and Obama has done nothing but surround himself with Clintons and I just can't shake the feeling that we won't rebound from this......at least not for a very very long time.


Obama is middle of the road?
That road must by at the Indianapolis 500, because it only seems to TURN TO THE LEFT.
gt I wouldn't stand in the middle of a field

in a thunderstorm, because I'm afraid you've got karma of your own coming.


You're parents may have not been bigoted or judgemental but I believe you have more than made for what they didn't have.  It's said their child has to be so mean, hateful, and bitter.


No the b!t*$ has a name and it's gt.