UN: Israel's use of cluster bombs in Lebanon completely immoral

UN clearance experts had so far found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 separate sites, Jan Egeland said.

Israel has repeated its previous insistence that munitions it uses in conflict comply with international law.

Earlier, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rebuffed UN chief Kofi Annan's calls for a swift end to Israel's air and sea blockade of Lebanon.

• UN: Israel's use of cluster bombs in Lebanon completely immoral - Liberal
  • Olmert SHOULD rebuff Kofi Annan's call. - CeeCee
    • rules, forum - rules
      • you responded to posts from a YEAR ago.... - this thread is from 9/2006......LOL....nm
    • The question is what's wrong with you? - Liberal
      • And Israel loves those suicide bombers. - CeeCee
        • Why do you defend killing of innocent civilians? - Liberal
          • I cannot argue with someone who thinks as you do. - CeeCee
            • Another lie. - Liberal
              • You have much anger. - CeeCee
                • Anger? No. I can't stop laughing at your posts. - Liberal
                  • ok - CeeCee
                  • Thoughts on war, immorality and Robert McNamara - Teddy
                    • Dereliction of Duty. - CeeCee
                      • All the more reason to learn from his arrogance - and not repeat it. nm - Starcat

The messages you are viewing are archived/old.
To view latest messages and participate in discussions, select the boards given in left menu

Right-wing rants that cite email sources are suspect at best.  Google any one heading included in yesterday's post and discover links to the "common sense" of the Getting' After Left show and a barrage of right-wing blogs.  Surprise, surprise. 

BODY COUNT 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

Despite being the 3rd largest US city, Chicago's murder rate ranks 20th behind much less populous cities Baltimore MD, Newark NJ, St. Louis MO, Oakland CA, Cincinnati OH, Buffalo NY, Kansas City MO, Miami FL, Pittsburg PA,  and Cleveland OH.  Guess who is ranked #21 (same general category)?  That would be McC's hometown of Phoenix Arizona.  Chicago has experienced an overall decline in crime since the 1990s.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

You seem to be equating Iraq fatalities to murder.  I agree.  On that Iraq body count figure, since you are talking civilians in Chicago, it is only fair to include those folks in your first six months of 2008 figure.  In 2008, the average daily violent occupation-related loss of life via suicide attacks, vehicle bombs, gunfire and executions is 27 x 182.5 days in first six months = 4,927 + you 221 = 5148.  While we are at it, may as well throw out that total civilian body count in Iraq, the very most conservative documented count being 88,373, or World Trade Center x30.   

"COMBAT ZONE"

Naturally, no reliable data is available on this claim, it being a subjective pronouncement that seeks to pontificate.

STATE PENSION FUND

Here we see the smear leap from the Chicago to the state level...an apples to oranges, smoke and mirrors maneuver the GOP attack machine thought they might slip by unattentive readers.  OK.  Let's go there.  As recently as February of this year, we find the following:  http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/02/25/daily29.html

Center on Budget and Policy and Priorities:  McCain's red state:  Arizona Budget Deficit Worst in the Country.  Follow link for all the fascinating details.     

http://www.cbpp.org/1-15-08sfp.htm  Info updated 08/05/08

For starters, state budget deficits are ranked in terms of shortfall percentages.

In the US, 29 states face budget shortfalls totaling 48 billion in 2009.  Notice how similar this 29-state total is to the amount in the GOP smear that claimed a $44 BILLION dollar deficit IL pension plan funds.   Arizona's shortfall percentage = 17.8%, now in second place behind the nations most populous state, California.  Illinois' shortfall percentage = 6.6%, making AZ's budget deficit nearly 3 times that of IL.  So, if we hold dems (and by pub logic, O) responsible for Chicago, then who, pray tell is responsible for Arizona, the political culture from which JM comes from? 

COUNTY SALES TAX

To suggest that any party's local (especially municipal or county) tax schemes would be reproduced on a national level is downright ridiculous.  Tax structures are entirely different and wildly varied from state to state.  Speaking of states, I came across this link http://www.fairtaxation.org/facts/sales_tax_rank.php which shows the Arizona sales tax rate ranks higher (#10) at 7.8% than Illinois at 7.6%. 

CHICAGO SCHOOLS WORST IN NATION

I bit hard to address this second subjective pronouncement that seeks to pontificate.  In terms of WHAT exactly is it the worst?  They are certainly not an uneducated bunch of folks: 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a80Zfbu_.k4g&refer=us  University of Chicago has produced 82 Nobel prize winners and 10 Nobel Prize winners in economics, more than any university in the US.  The John Bates Clark Medal, bestowed every two years, recognizes the nation's most outstanding economist under 40.  U of Chicago has produced more than any other US institution, 6 out of the 31 recipients.  Seems like those Chicago economists are sort of, well....exceptional. 

I really could go on and on about Chicago's booming economy but I am out of time here.  Maybe later then. 

of your faith, and that's fine.  However, not everyone is of the same faith as you.  Noone has said you can't say it's immoral.  And no, it does not take away anything from you.  Is your marriage any less of a marriage because 2 guys get married?  The whole concept you are proposing is ridiculous. 

That having been said, what I believe is immoral is one who would take away the rights of another simply on the basis of their religious beliefs.  It would be like me telling you that you can't have lettuce on your sandwich because I don't like lettuce.

Why does none of this surprise me?

'US, Israel planned ME war' 13/08/2006 11:06  - (SA)

New York - The US government was closely involved in the planning of Israel's military operations against Islamic militant group Hezbollah even before the July 12 kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue. The kidnapping triggered a month-long Israeli operation in South Lebanon that is expected to come to an end on Monday. But Pulitzer Prize-winning US journalist Seymour Hersh writes that President George W Bush and vice president Dick Cheney were convinced that a successful Israeli bombing campaign against Hezbollah could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential US pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations. Citing an unnamed Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the Israeli and US governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah - and shared it with Bush administration officials - well before the July 12 kidnappings. The expert added that the White House had several reasons for supporting a bombing campaign, the report said. If there was to be a military option against Iran, it had to get rid of the weapons Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation against Israel, Hersh writes. Citing a US government consultant with close ties to Israel, Hersh also reports that earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, several Israeli officials visited Washington to get a green light for a bombing operation following a Hezbollah provocation, and to find out how much the United States would bear. The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits, the magazine quotes the consultant as saying. Why oppose it? We'll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran. US government officials have denied the charges. Nonetheless, Hersh writes, a former senior intelligence official says some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should. There is no way that (defence secretary Donald) Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this, the report quotes the former official as saying. When the smoke clears, they'll say it was a success, and they'll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran.

Move the state of Israel to Virginia, Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson can fight over the honor, and see how much y'all love Israel then.

I know that it happens all the time.  I am sorry that it does.

Why the Israeli attack helps the US by taking on Hamas now and why this time Israel may succeed in Gaza. A well-written perspective on Gaza, Israel, Hamas. This adds more to consider as we all discuss this war.

Why Israel Fights
By WILLIAM KRISTOL
Published: January 4, 2009

The Israeli assault on Hamas in Gaza is going to be a replay, we’re told, of the attempt to subdue Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in the summer of 2006. And the outcome, it’s asserted, will be the same: lots of death and destruction, no strategic victory for Israel and a setback for all who seek peace and progress in the Middle East.

Obviously, war is an unpredictable business, so I say this with some trepidation: I think the conventional wisdom will be proved wrong. Israel could well succeed in Gaza.

For one thing, southern Lebanon is a substantial and hilly area, bordered by northern Lebanon and Syria, through which Hezbollah could be re-supplied, both by Syria itself and by Iran. Gaza is a flat, narrow strip, bordered by Israel, as well as by the sea and by Egypt, no friend to Hamas. By cutting off the northern part of Gaza from the southern, Israel has basically surrounded northern Gaza, creating a military situation very different from that in Lebanon in 2006.

What’s more, the Israeli leadership seems aware of the mistakes — political, strategic and military — it made in Lebanon. That doesn’t mean it won’t make them all over again. The same prime minister, Ehud Olmert, is in charge, after all. But, today’s defense minister, Ehud Barak, is very different from his predecessor, the weak and unqualified Amir Peretz. So far as one can tell, the Gaza operation seems to have been well-planned and is being methodically executed, in sharp contrast to the Lebanon incursion. Barak has also warned that the operation could be long and difficult, lowering expectations by contrast with the Israeli rhetoric of July 2006.

In addition, in Lebanon, Israel proclaimed war goals that it couldn’t achieve — such as retrieving its two kidnapped soldiers and disarming Hezbollah. Now the Israeli government says that it seeks to weaken Hamas, lessen its ability to fire rockets from Gaza and secure new arrangements along the Egyptian-Gaza border to prevent Hamas from re-arming. These may well be achievable goals.

And, of course, not all military efforts against terror fail. Recall Israel’s incursion into the West Bank in the spring of 2002, when, under the leadership of Ariel Sharon, Israel succeeded in ripping up established terror networks and began the defeat of the second intifada. Israel also was able to avoid a long-term re-occupation, while retaining the ability to go back in on anti-terror missions. What’s more, the 2002 bloodshed didn’t seem to do lasting damage to hopes for progress or moderation on the West Bank. After all, it’s Gaza, from which Israel withdrew in 2005, not the West Bank, that became a Hamas stronghold.

An Israeli success in Gaza would be a victory in the war on terror — and in the broader struggle for the future of the Middle East. Hamas is only one manifestation of the rise, over the past few decades, of a terror-friendly and almost death-cult-like form of Islamic extremism. The combination of such terror movements with a terror-sponsoring and nuclear-weapons-seeking Iranian state (aided by its sidekick Syria) has produced a new kind of threat to Israel.

But not just to Israel. To everyone in the Middle East — very much including Muslims — who aren’t interested in living under the sway of extremist regimes. And to any nation, like the United States, that is a target of Islamic terror. So there are sound reasons why the United States — whether led by George W. Bush or Barack Obama — will stand with Israel as it fights.

But Israel — assuming it succeeds — is doing the United States a favor by taking on Hamas now.

The huge challenge for the Obama administration is going to be Iran. If Israel had yielded to Hamas and refrained from using force to stop terror attacks, it would have been a victory for Iran. If Israel were now to withdraw under pressure without accomplishing the objectives of severely weakening Hamas and preventing the reconstitution of a terror-exporting state in Gaza, it would be a triumph for Iran. In either case, the Iranian regime would be emboldened, and less susceptible to the pressure from the Obama administration to stop its nuclear program.

But a defeat of Hamas in Gaza — following on the heels of our success in Iraq — would be a real setback for Iran. It would make it easier to assemble regional and international coalitions to pressure Iran. It might positively affect the Iranian elections in June. It might make the Iranian regime more amenable to dealing.

With respect to Iran, Obama may well face — as the Israeli government did with Hamas — a moment when the use of force seems to be the only responsible option. But Israel’s willingness to fight makes it more possible that the United States may not have to. 

the U.N. overstepped its bounds?  And what about the United Kingdom that controlled the area in the early 1900s? 

Like it or not nations are formed through civil war.  There are winners and there are losers.  It's really very simple.  The process has not changed for centuries and it will never change.  The strong prevail.  The righteous prevail. The minute we take a liberal viewpoint, that's the exact minute we become weak. 

...I am every single person that has ever posted on the liberal board.  You have obviously found me out.  I have so many different monikers it is very very difficult to keep them straight.

As far as my being mad or angry as you suppose, no not in the least.  Most of my energy is spent trying to change syntax and moniker as often as possible on the MT Stars liberal board.

Yep, they'll be back when all the Lebanese are dead, because all us conservatives are evil like that.    

I have studied U.S./Israel relations extensively.  I fully understand that the protestors do not share my point of view as well as you.  From reading your copious posts I am very clear on where you stand.  I will not be so presumptious as to think I know your biography, but you obviously believe everything wrong in the world has U.S. origins.  I believe you are wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I will not try to change your mind.  Since liberals in general are so worried about how the rest of the world thinks about us I will bring to your attention that it becomes ever more clear by your stances and views as with those on the extreme left that you all side with terrorism.  You can spin it any way you want, but you come off as supporting terrorists.

When I speak of Israel, I speak of the Jews. 

You Said:  "And yes, I did bring Hitler into the conversation.  He systematically tied to wipe out a group of people, which is exactly what Israel is doing right now."

That statement is exactly what makes you anti-Semitic.  The fact that you can compare Israel to Nazi Germany is obscene and anti-Semitic.  You are using something horrific done to the Jews (who make up 75% or more of the Israeli population) and using it to illustrate what you perceive is going on in the Gaza Strip.  Can you not find some other means to make your point other than conjuring up prejudice perpetrated by Hitler?  Could you have maybe made your comparison to Kosovo/Bosnia?  Nope, you chose the holocaust to illustrate your point.  You intent was to shock and to be controversial.  You wanted to provoke a reaction. 

What exactly did you think using the name "Hitler" would provoke?  You argument in and of itself is anti-Semitic. 

By the way, I am a messianic Jew.  I know a little bit about anti-Semitism.  So before you continue to insult both my intelligence and my homeland, choose your words wisely.

only answer is hop around the globe, play eenie, meenie, miney, moe and choose another sovereign country to invade.

It didn't happen here.....yet.  But every single terrorism expert believes it's not a matter of if but a matter of WHEN.  And Bush is helping them by not protecting us satisfactorily and by providing THEM with OTJ training in Iraq.

Yes, I think I'm beginning to "get" it.

As far as what I feel about Conservatives, I've voted Republican a number of times in my life, so don't tell me what I think because you haven't a clue.  I vote for the candidate, not the party, and if Bush and Kerry are the best this country can offer up, we need to worry about much more than terrorists.

Your posts show how completely filled with rage and hatred you are.  I have not called anyone a name, but you just called me many.  Enough said.