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Delusional and extremely dangerous.

Posted By: American Woman on 2005-11-28
In Reply to: The guy's delusional - thank you - for doing what you can - nm- Starcat

I just hope he doesn't get us all killed in the next 3 years.


Thanks very much for posting this. 




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Dangerous............ sm
"If you try to engage them, they go all freakoid and can be dangerous."

Yeah.....I have a keyboard, and I'm not afraid to use it! BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA
This is dangerous misinformation. sm

I think the public, especially those on this board who think that embryonic stem cells are merely going to be retrieved from thrown away embryos, had better do some serious research.  People need to put down the emotional button and pick up the research button here. 



Misleading Missouri
The Show-Me State’s deceptive stem-cell initiative.

By Yuval Levin


This November, voters in Missouri will be asked to consider a ballot initiative on human cloning and embryonic-stem-cell research. The initiative has been the focus of an intense (if lopsided) campaign in the state for months, with millions of dollars in ads calling for passage. But many of the most basic facts about just what the proposal says and aims to do have not fully emerged.

The Kansas City Star this week reports that the initiative’s sponsor, the Coalition for Lifesaving Cures, has spent more than $28 million on the effort. More than 97 percent of the money has come from James and Virginia Stowers, the billionaire founders of American Century mutual funds, who have also founded a research institute in Kansas City that wants to take a leading role in the stem-cell game. $28 million is a lot of money, and would have paid for a lot of stem-cell research. Why spend it on this initiative campaign instead? What exactly is it buying?

The official summary that will appear on the ballot tells voters the initiative’s first purpose is to “ensure Missouri patients have access to any therapies and cures, and allow Missouri researchers to conduct any research, permitted under federal law.” In other words, to take away from state legislators the authority to govern the practices of stem-cell scientists in the state, and to hand that authority to the federal government alone instead. Missouri could not regulate any practice that Congress has not seen fit to regulate.

An Explanation Is Due
The initiative’s advocates have not done much to explain to voters why they should cede this bit of sovereignty, or why even those who support embryo-destructive stem-cell research should think that state legislators would restrict it more than Congress would. Indeed, while the U.S. House of Representatives has voted to ban all human cloning, and the Congress each year passes restrictions on federal funding of research in which human embryos are harmed, no such bills have ever even come up for a vote in the Missouri legislature.

More peculiar still, the actual text of the initiative does not quite match the summary’s assertion that all research permitted nationally would be protected in Missouri. In fact, the initiative bans the creation of human embryos through in vitro fertilization if it is undertaken solely for research purposes, and bans the extraction of cells from embryos older than 14 days. Neither is prohibited under federal law, and the former is a fairly regular practice. Stem-cell researchers, especially in the private sector, produce and destroy embryos solely for research purposes all the time. (Here, on page 22, for instance, is an ad from the Washington Post’s Express commuter paper asking women to provide their eggs for such endeavors.)

More Radical Than the U.N.
The official summary’s next item, and by far its most deceptive, only complicates things further. It tells voters the initiative would “ban human cloning or attempted cloning.” But in fact, the ballot initiative would create a new state constitutional right to human cloning.

Human cloning, sometimes known by its technical name “somatic-cell nuclear transfer” or SCNT, involves creating a new human being that is genetically identical to an existing human being. It could be done by removing the contents of a woman’s egg cell, and filling it with the contents of an adult cell (for instance, a skin cell) taken from the body of a donor. The result would be a developing human embryo with the genetic identity of the donor of the adult cell — an embryo like any other, but with only one genetic parent rather than two. This is how Dolly the sheep was created, and many other mammals since, though no one seems to have mastered the technique in humans just yet.

Once created, this cloned human embryo would be in the same situation as any other embryo produced in the lab, and one of two things could be done with it: It could be implanted in a woman to grow to term and be born, or it could be destroyed so that its stem cells could be removed for research. SCNT therefore means either bringing a cloned child into the world, or creating human embryos solely to destroy them for science. Huge majorities of the public agree that cloned children should not be produced, and even the ballot initiative itself seems to disapprove of creating a human life solely to destroy it for research. Therefore, since creating a cloned embryo by SCNT would allow only for two unethical options, the ethical option is to prohibit the practice altogether, and avoid that impossible choice. President Bush has called for such a ban, and the House of Representatives (though not the Senate) has voted for it. Even the U.N. General Assembly last year adopted a declaration calling on member states to “prohibit all forms of human cloning.”

On their face, the Missouri initiative and the campaign supporting it imply that is what the proposed constitutional amendment would do. But further down, tucked away in its definition section, we find that when it speaks of human cloning the initiative refers only to efforts “to implant in a uterus” the embryo produced by SCNT in an attempt to initiate a pregnancy.

The act of implanting an embryo in a woman’s womb, performed with IVF embryos many times every day, is not what makes human cloning different. What is different is the act of cloning — somatic-cell nuclear transfer — by which the embryo is originally created. Cloning to produce an embryo to be developed to birth and cloning to produce an embryo to be destroyed for research are both human cloning, carried out identically. As James Battey, chair of the NIH Stem Cell Task Force, told a congressional committee in March, “The first step, the cloning step, is the same, but the intended result is different” (emphasis added). But the initiative, by redefining cloning, protects the practice while pretending to prohibit it.

Moreover, the combination of the first and second sections of the initiative would mean that the Missouri constitution would first privilege and protect the creation of cloned human embryos for research (as long as federal law did not prohibit it) and then would mandate the destruction of these embryos.

CLONING ABOVE THE LAW
And that’s not all. In what must rank as the most peculiar section of this very odd proposal, the initiative goes on to state that research using these embryos needs to abide by state and local laws, but only as long as these laws do not “prevent, restrict, obstruct, or discourage any stem cell research or stem cell therapies and cures that are permitted by the provisions of this section,” and do not even “create disincentives for any person to engage in or otherwise associate with such research or therapies and cures.”

This quite simply puts human cloning above the law in Missouri. How far would it go? Do labor laws or the fire code “restrict” cloning research? Do property taxes on the Stowers Institute “discourage” it? Surely income taxes on cloning researchers who might move to Missouri “create a disincentive” to engage in the research, and limits on political contributions by the Institute discourage politicians from associating with it. If inserted in Missouri’s constitution, this amendment would essentially permit cloning researchers in the state to flout any law they found constraining, and permit the Stowers Institute to be a law onto itself. Not a bad deal, and one that may even be worth $28 million to the Institute.

But why should the people of Missouri put up with it? The extravagantly funded campaign to get them to do so has of course avoided mentioning that the initiative creates a constitutional right to human cloning and sets those who clone above the law. It has also neglected to note that human cloning research on any serious scale would require massive numbers of eggs from massive numbers of women, and that extracting those eggs carries serious risks. It even skips any mention of the fact that embryonic stem cells are derived by destroying developing human embryos — whether cloned or otherwise. Instead, the campaign has coined the euphemism “early stem cell research” to avoid the word “embryonic,” and in one television ad tells Missourians that “Early stem cells come from a microscopic group of cells smaller than a period.” Cells from cells, and not an embryo in sight.

Reckless Hype and Overselling
Most of the campaign’s other ads have focused on “cures.” One shows a doctor saying that far from endangering women stem-cell research “could lead to cures for diseases that concern women like ovarian cancer.” Presumably the stem-cell treatment in question is bone marrow transplantation, an adult stem-cell technique widely in use for decades, and one in no way threatened by any legal barriers or related to embryonic stem cells or cloning. Another ad shows a pediatrician saying stem cells could help his patients, but offering no details. Another shows an Alzheimer’s researcher saying “stem cell research offers the promise of cures” for “so many devastating diseases like Alzheimer’s disease,” but offers no evidence to counter the near consensus in the field that this simply is not so. Many of these disingenuous ads repeat the claim that the initiative would ban human cloning, and none of the ads mention that all stem-cell research is already legal in Missouri and there are no prospects for that changing, or that the referendum would not support any new research.

Many stem-cell scientists are uneasy about this kind of reckless hype and overselling, and are trying to bring coverage of the field down to earth, where the prospects for stem-cell cures for all that ails us are not what they used to be. And many blame non-scientific motives for it all. “It is true that Alzheimer’s is not a promising candidate for stem-cell therapies,” British stem-cell scientist Stephen Minger told the London Times, “but it was not scientists who suggested it was — that was all politics in the US driven by Nancy Reagan.”

Scientists are not so blameless, as the ads in the Show-Me State show, but “politics in the US” does indeed seem to lie at the heart of the Missouri stem-cell story. Beyond putting themselves above the law in Missouri, embryonic-stem-cell research advocates see an opportunity to have a relatively red state endorse embryo-destructive research and human cloning. Unlike California’s 2004 referendum, the Missouri initiative would not direct any new funds to the research or establish any new institution. It would simply allow advocates nationwide to say “even Missouri” supports embryo-destructive research and human cloning, so surely less conservative or less pro-life states should have no objection.

The initiative is a talking point in the larger campaign for human-cloning research. And that larger campaign itself seems increasingly to be a mere political ploy for advantage, rather than the future of medicine, as scientists discover alternatives to cloning that offer more promise both ethically and scientifically. Stem-cell pioneer James Thomson put it this way in an interview last month: 


My personal bet is that so-called therapeutic cloning will not be therapeutically useful in terms of applying those cells for transplantation. It's not that they couldn't be theoretically. I think there's no reason why the procedure won't work. It's more about cost and where the technology's likely to go in the next 10 years or so. I could be wrong because again my colleagues disagree with me on this. But I believe that there ultimately will be other technologies to accomplish the same thing, that don't require a human oocyte. It's the cost of the human oocyte and the ethics of obtaining those oocytes in reasonable numbers.

 

Those “other technologies” that don’t require human eggs or embryos include new cell reprogramming techniques that could turn adult cells into embryonic stem cells without embryos (as teams at Harvard and more recently in Japan have shown), newly discovered germ-line stem cells that might possess the abilities of embryonic cells, and other emerging alternatives. They are still in development, to be sure, but most are further along in human experiments than somatic cell nuclear transfer, and they offer the promise of advancing stem-cell science without human cloning or the destruction of nascent life.

All of which should make the people of Missouri wonder just what they’re being asked to vote for and why. A vote for the state’s ballot initiative would be a vote for a constitutional right to clone, for super-legal status for stem-cell scientists and their employers, for making their state a prop in a political fight that has little to do with Missouri, and for hype and false hope for millions of patients who have been made pawns in that struggle.

A vote against the initiative, meanwhile, would not be a vote against any science, any technique, any ongoing or new research. It would be a vote against hypocrisy and deception, and a vote for keeping legislative options open as the facts change. The Show-Me State should not be duped.

 — Yuval Levin is a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and senior editor of the The New Atlantis magazine


O a dangerous man? He freaks me out.

So it could get worse if he is president? Yes, he is very intelligent.  He knows how to manipulate and knows exactly what to say and what people want to hear.  He now wants to "change the WORLD."  He is now trying to "kill people's expectations" of him.  Some of the things he is now saying is like we are going to have to make sacrifices.  What that is? I am afraid to find out.  I don't want America to change the way he wants it to change.  I love the USA, but the O is scary and I am afraid to the point that I was considering (if I can) moving to Canada if he is our new president. 


Yeah he's dangerous all right...
LOL, be careful what you "research" - there might be scintilla of truth to it...

Why don't you name your "sources" showing us how 'dangerous' PRESIDENT ELECT Obama is, so we can see how 'factual' your information is?

You can certainly defend your position, right? So name the sources!
They scare me, as well, on a very dangerous level.

Religious Fanatics are FAR more dangerous
You are absolutely right. You can tell that just by reading 99.9% of the posts on this board.
Nope. You're definitely dangerous. I'm askeered of people who

"take the logical calm approach" when you're irritated "into a frenzy."


How dare you be logical and calm whilst in the midst of a frenzy?


(I'm getting the distinct feeling, however, that it wasn't YOU who was the "frenzied" one posting below.)


Sorry!  I just can't stop laughing at that one!


 


extremely helpful
Extremely helpful, if you ask me.  Have to let the people know whose fault it was.
Even I will admit that KO is extremely
biased toward Obama. Have you see McCain in the Membrane? But I do enjoy his humor. I often wonder though, who has to pick up those papers off the floor after he throws them at the camera?
#1, The Nation is extremely partisan. #2.

Tillman didn't talk about why he went into the service to anyone.  We will have to assume that what his mother is saying is true.  Has the wife spoken out?  I would think if he told his deepest heart's secrets, it would be to her.  She was his high school sweetheart.  Here's a snippet from a Newsweek article. 


He joined the service just after a honeymoon to Bora Bora with his high-school sweetheart, Marie. He and a younger brother, Kevin, slipped off to enlist in Denver, where they could avoid publicity. Kevin, who gave up a budding minor-league baseball career, remains in the Army. Pat Tillman wanted no attention, no glory, for joining the rank and file. He didn't want to be singled out from his brothers and sisters in the military, says former Cardinals coach Dave McGinnis. Tillman apparently had made a pact with his family to stay silent about his service, a promise they have kept. They have gathered to grieve inside the comfortable family home in a leafy enclave of San Jose.


His was no simple case of patriotism; Tillman was never known as a flag-waver. His agent, Frank Bauer, told reporters he had suspected that Tillman might quit to teach or to practice law like his father, Patrick Sr., but not to join the military. Snyder, his college coach, said Tillman never used the word patriotism when he explained his plans to enlist. He just seemed to think something had to be done. When players asked why he enlisted, he didn't want to talk about it. McGinnis says there were reasons Pat said he had that he didn't want to divulge, and the coach respected his view and his right to make his own path. Tillman had always been different. When he joined the pros, he rode a bicycle to practice because he didn't own a car. He refused to buy a cell phone. A sports publicist at Arizona State once described him as a surfer dude.


It seems his mother decided the pact no longer had any merit.  Personally, I see another Cindy Sheehan, disobeying her son's wishes. 


Your last statement is extremely ignorant
There are nearly 1.5 million abortions performed in the U.S each YEAR, more than the entire death toll in Iraq thus far.
I'm the opposite....Extremely doubtful....
...Obama will win with Biden. Bayh would have been a better choice. Ah well.....


I just did a search for it. That is extremely scary. nm
x
I find that extremely hard to believe
Usually we get shoved out of the way when we go to eat places like buffets where there is a black crowd. Yet if we did it, it'd be a "hate crime" and we'd be arrested.

Oh wait I forgot this scenario: We went to our towns little carnival where they serve all kinds of different food and the black folk in the area (it was only on one street a block wide) started chanting "Obama" and getting all hyper and out of order and knocked over a little white boy and when the dad started yelling at them to chill out they started in on him being a racist and the cops made HIM leave. Amazing.

SO yeah, unless you were at a KKK fish fry, I find that hard to believe.
He is extremely hateful. Why would Obama go to
nm
Melanoma, especially above the neck, is extremely worrisome..sm
for eventual metastasis to the brain. I think we have the right to see his medical records.
So right! Joy is extremely rude, but I dont "hate"
nm
Extremely well-stated post! I agree with you 100%
Most importantly, it was YOUR decision, along with your doctor. It was NOT the decision nor the business of anyone else.

Hats off to you!
Extremely revealing article written

by a first-generation African-American woman (hard to get by with calling her a racist) in The National Thinker: 


Had Americans been able to stop obsessing over the color of Barack Obama's skin and instead paid more attention to his cultural identity, maybe he would not be in the White House today. The key to understanding him lies with his identification with his father, and his adoption of a cultural and political mindset rooted in postcolonial Africa


Well worth reading the entire thing:  http://209.157.64.200/focus/news/2278969/posts?page=1


We welcome extremists...as long as you're extremely moderate! : )
Oh, gosh. I cracked myself up.
The guy's delusional - thank you

Not only are you delusional,
Who is this "he?" He who? Are you actually sitting here trying to say that Obama stated caegorically denied that he is a rock star? Do you hear yourself? Also, just how insulting are you trying to be when you send your detractors to do research you would like to imply they have not done. You are missing the point...something that you have mastered. We are not talking about reality. We are talking about image problems, manufactured by the media and fanatic hate-mongers like yourself. You would like to invent this rock star issue and then waste your times and ours tryng to give it credence, truly pathetic on the face of it. The same thing has been done to McCain with that sticky Bush clone label. However, his voting record gives much credibility to the REALITY (in many peoples eyes..since this is about perceptions) that he is a Bush clone. No amount of Fox news spin regurgitation is going to change that perception of him. He can choose to deny it, like you are, or, if he knows what is good for him, he will address the challenge this label poses to him directly next week....but those pesky first night speakers, Bush and Cheney, are going to be really hard act to follow in this regard. Can't wait to see that.
delusional. nm

nm


 


Sam, you are are the one who is delusional. nm
.
Delusional much? nm

You are truly delusional......... sm
I don't know what you think you caught, but it wasn't me. Get a life, lady.
She was not delusional at ALL nm
nm
Delusional.
Is your victim complex so severe that you really believe the stuff you post? I wonder if you're just pulling our legs sometimes.
your post is extremely rude, hateful, harassing, insulting...
I post here once more YOUR rude reply to my post, I quote...

...'You don't listen very well, do you?
Tell you what. You liberals seem to need everything spoon-fed to you and I've come to the conclusion that all we're doing is interfering with your mental progress.
Look up the speech and see if you can maybe figure out for yourself what he said that was disgraceful - if your mind will even allow you to consider tht possibility.'

For this your comment you should be BANNED from posting. I comply with the rules of this forum and abstain from giving you some appropriate insults in return. I think them only.

This is worse than sad. This is delusional.
It's the anti-American pathos of the left that leads to brain rot.  I've seen it happen before. First they start calling everyone a liar, then they say they are hateful, then comes the Christian bashing and labeling.  Next, brain fluid will start to leak onto the keyboard, but they won't notice because their mind is gone, I tell you, GONE.
As usual, delusional.
We suppose you'd be the first to whine about freedom from health care worries with a national health care system, or, say, four to six paid weeks off a year, and oh, say, a guaranteed pension for granny when she gets too old to hobble to work at Wal-Mart. You don't want workplace protection for America's workers, or a living wage, or standards of ethics for corporations as well as the people they hire. You like seeing America's wealth funneled to a few happy guys at the top while 90% of those who actually work to produce goods and services get the crumbs.

There are equitable ways to structure law and government and business that both encourage free market enterprise and keep acceptable standards of income and benefits for the average American. However, you're so busy rah-rahing a system that history tells us leads nowhere except total annihilation and collapse that you don't seem to be aware of history at all. Where do you think you're going to be when it caves? - that's what happens to capitalism when you remove all obligation and restriction - and taxes - from that top 1%.

And just to show you how utterly and ridiculously misguided your loyalities are, take note of the fact that YOU apparently have swallowed hook, line and sinker the notion that it's preferable to tax hell out of wages and leave the capital profits of the rich alone, rather than have NO taxes on earned wages, and tax hell out of superfluous capital gains as it should be, and is, in every better society on earth. You're hooked totally against your better interests and the better interests 99% of American citizens in fact. Sorry they've done that to you and hope some day you come around and see the current system for what it is, and stop fighting so hard to make yourself a slave.



Sheesh.....you are delusional.
Pay attention here...Bill Clinton...liberal to the core...regime change in Iraq was hatched during HIS presidency. You can't deny that. Well, you can, but anyone who cares to check will see the truth of it. So...your last paragraph should be aimed at liberals. Apparently, regime change is a LIBERAL idea.

John F. Kennedy...another liberal and incidentally as I have said on many occasions a man I admire...started getting involved in Viet Nam to "stop the spread of communism." FORCING western ideas on those folks. So I guess invading other countries to start democracies must be a LIBERAL idea.

Your rationalizing aka just because they were enacted during a conservative government doesn't mean it was a conservative idea. That is a ridiculous statement. What it DOES mean is that conservatives cared enough about the idea, WHATEVER it was, to actually DO something about it other than TALK about it. Ideas are fine, ACTION is what counts.

Look, for whatever reason and Lord only knows why, I am going to try this one more time. I consider myself an American. Not a conservative, not a liberal, not a libertarian, a Ron Paul supporter, polka-dotted or criss-crossed. I don't have any group, person, club, party who tells me what to believe. You can call me whatever you want to, pigeon hole me however you like, to suit your agenda. It is what you are good at. It makes absolutely no difference to me what you think of me or what group you want to put me in.

As to justifying my beliefs? My dear, you are the one who keeps justifying, and I can show that every major change in this country from the start was enacted under what you call conservative, what I call deeply morally convicted people...and then YOU justify by saying doesn't matter if "conservatives" actually DID it, it was a LIBERAL idea.

Geezzzz....whatever, piglet. If that is the case, thank you for the idea, and YOU'RE WELCOME for ACTUALLY ENACTING THEM.

Sheesh. LOL. THE END.


That's totally DELUSIONAL.

Exactly!! Most O lovers in a delusional
!!
You're quite delusional.
You got nothing!
Delusional mob mentality? sm
Seems the only example of that is with the liberals who cry foul when presented with the FACTS surrounding anything Obama. Do you realize how ignorant that makes you look to everyone except the other liberals? What's even more stupid is that you people ignored all the warning signs and elected him as POTUS anyway. Talk about insanity!!!!
You're delusional.
Do you also hear voices?
I just have a problem with you being delusional,
paranoid, and spreading lies.
You're delusional. As usual.
Nobody told Army Mom not to speak or even that she wasn't entitled to her opinion. But she DID seem to feel she was speaking for all soldiers and seemed to be totally unaware that most soldiers hold a different view of the war than she does. That unawareness can't go unchallenged. Read any military message board and you'll see for yourself that it's an ostrich-head-in-the-sand kind of thing. Soldiers aren't stupid. Many of them know the deal. Many pretend they don't. Some just like it and don't care why they're there. There are all kinds of opinions on the message boards, not just one view. But most want to get the heck out and come home because they know they've been used and set up and put in harm's way for no good reason. Anyone who's been paying attention knows it too.


fake wars? you are delusional.
x
You are delusional AND ill-informed. What a pity.
By your logic, Palestinians are in charge (yeah, right). That's the only way they could possibly be occupiers. When was the last time they blockaded Israel's food, medicine, fuel and money? Point to the place on the map where they have "expanded" their settlements, especially in light of the fact that the majority of them live in refugee camps. Israelis have not right to return? Return from which diaspora? They are there, or not, by choice, not by force. There is a difference. Palestinians try to tear down the wall, not construct it.

Since when do they have the power to imposed ANYTHING on the Israelis, let alone a police state. This current so-called retaliation is in response to the expiration of a cease fire, not renewed by Hamas because Israel did not live up to its own bargain and refused to lift the blockade. Palestinians invaded what part of Israel? When? Remember, they are the ones living on the ever-shrinking, splintering geography. Israelis think nothing of plundering even the most basic of resources, and scarce at that....water. Just another routine starvation tactic as they swim in their pools. Again, consult the disproportionate fatality statistics on fatalities and injuries. No matter how hard you protest, you cannot turn your lies into truth.

You are paranoid and delusional and even worse!
I told you 10000 times that I am BORN IN EUROPE, but you keep insisting that I am Indian or Pakistani or else.
I am born in Europe, and you are JEALOUS, because you are holed up somewhere in a little village in the Midwest, 'kinda?'

You should consult a psychiatrist or a doctor in a mental institution.

Why are you following me on this forum and write your pathetic, paranoid comments in reply to my posts?

Something must be TERRIBLY WRONG with you....

Look for another past-time.


Delusional state.......RICH is NOT a bad word
aa
Delusional mob mentality cannot change facts.
how ignorant you make yourself look by subscribing to this nonsense? What's even more stupid is the fact that people are so full of hate for Obama that they are actually willing to go for broke having judges tell them the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Insane.
Truth? You're delusional if those think those hateful . . .
signs portraying President Obama as Hitler, as a socialist, a lot of them extremely racist, are truthful.  And those are the signs that were shown on the coverage from Fox.  Inciting hate and racism is Un-American, no two ways about it.
paranoid and delusional, is this written in the Bible?...nm
nm
to make myself extremely clear, it looked as if the baby was unconscious, was limp and looked to be
@
I no more understand it than I understand the extremely poor taste and blasphemous sm
post with pictures on the other board.  Are we clear now?