Just in case you missed the reply to your other post...

• What if Obama didn't hate people like me? (sm) - MeMT
  • Need to get that African slavery thing correct - MSMT
    • You are right I did not know but I am not apologizing....I am saying we should not support him (sm) - You missed the entire point - MeMT
    • While you are at it, why don't you go ahead and - deny the Holocaust? nm
      • Not saying slavery didn't happen.... - sm
  • Most of what you say is exactly how I feel. I too...sm - independent
    • I know, I don't think religion should be part of it either (sm) - MeMT
  • I don't think Obama hates anyone . . . - pw
    • Then explain his church and minister. Explain that to me. nm - MeMT
      • If everyone was guilty by association . . . - pw
        • Guilt by association. Really wanna go there? - McCs pals around with...sm
          • At least they're not Muslim terrorists - nm
          • Hey I agree with you . . . - pw
            • I realize you do. I posted under yours - because it was the same subject. nm
          • Though I do not agree with dealings in - MSMT
            • "Blue-blooded" (must be a Freudian) Americans for you are - arms dealers, convicted criminals x2....sm
              • Yes, well, those would be democrats as well - I believe Obama is one of those
                • You seem to be having a little trouble staying on task. - No diret answer = no credibility. sm
        • A very honest and realistic statement. sm - independent
      • Perhaps it was the social and community outreach - ministries Obama attended....sm
  • I so absolutely agree with you. n/m - gourdpainter
  • that church is concerning to me - and...
    • As much as that "our God should beat their god(s)" - vote for McCain prayer just yesterday?
      • Correct, Rev. Wright on one side and white evangelicals on the other....sm - independent
        • I agree, but - he got an endorsement from an evangelist but he didn't attend the church for 20 ye - MeMT
          • Just in case you missed the reply to your other post... - here's an instant replay....sm
            • Is infanticide on that list? - concernedMT
            • You call that an excuse? There are plenty of churches that offer those things!! nm - That don't preach hate

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Surely you would agree that when accused of something we should have a chance for rebuttal? And that our rebuttal would surely include proof/evidence of why we took a particular stand?  Would you deny the liberal board that right?  SOME of us may be tolerant (or as Nan put it, "sissies") but some of us are very capable of speaking up for ourselves.

I have read Nan on this board (and others as well) for almost two years so I think I have a pretty fair grasp of her opinion and style of posting.

As far as who can accomplish all these goals -- a journey begins with a single step. Barack is willing to start the journey. McCain stubbornly refuses to change course.   If he does not live up to his hopes - another election in 4 years. 

Experience -- time and time again current events have proven Barack's thoughtfulness and judgment have proven true.  Even the current administration is following the course for a time-table that Barack proposed so long ago.

I do not see Barack as a savior -- I see a fine man with a vision for our country that matches my own.

Throw that hood in the wash, its getting dingy.  12 year olds, we know what you are saying there.

I made no "moral judgment" on SP's premarital pregnancy - merely pointing out the historical precedent she set.

poster says duh?  Exactly.  Overwrought rhetoric destroys the validity of any discussion.

Let me just address a couple of points:

Science isn't a "numbers" game where if you line up 1000 scientists on your side and I line up 1500 on my side, I win.  The history of science is rife with examples of the majority of scientists being wrong.  It might even be argued that at the moment any scientific discovery is made, the person who makes the discovery is, DE facto, a minority of one.   The majority of scientists once thought the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, and that human disease was caused by invisible gases or by imbalance of the "four elements", and scoffed at the notion of "germs". If we left science up to a vote and counted heads to determine what is true, we'd have never moved one inch beyond the stone age.

The real problem, though, is that it really doesn't take much information about the methods used by the "global warmists" (my term) for even a layman to recognize that they are far from conclusive, and in many cases their methods are highly questionable.  And since there is an enormous cost to all of us (or, enormous flow of money to the "warmists") to do battle with this "problem" - if it is one - it only makes sense to get the science right rather than jumping off the deep end and starting a lot of things in process that might very well be entirely unnecessary.  Before we get the villagers all up in arms with torches and pitchforks, let's bother to find out if there really is a dragon in the cave.  So far, I'm afraid that the best we can say is that all we have is rumors and that no one has actually seen the dragon.

Let's not conflate global warming with alternative energy, though.  Although there is some connection, they are really separate issues.  If there is global warming, it seems now that some scientists think that worm flatulence causes more warming than hydrocarbons, so on that basis we should be attacking worms, not fossil fuels. 

Certainly, we should be pursuing every realistic form of alternative energy, but for one simple reason which you have correctly stated:  There is only so much fossil fuel of any kind in the ground.  We're going to run out of it.  This means that even if oil were clean and cheap as water, we must seek alternatives. 

However, oil isn't as cheap as water, and we don't own most of it even if it were, so the second reason we must seek alternatives is that we cannot continue to send $billions to foreign countries, many of whom don't like us very much and who are using our own dollars to finance the operations of our enemies.  It's simply madness to finance our own destruction.

Thought I'd switch back over to this board.

Thanks for your reply to my question about your leaving Florida.  It sounds like a big transition in many ways, both geographically and emotionally.  I had inquired because I have similar thoughts myself and so far I keep moving farther and farther north and away from civilization.   Anyway, good luck and it would be good to hear when you're settled in. 

... I know we don't want to digress, but please stop blaming the fact that we have to resort to these measures on the current administration

Here’s what a lot of us believe:  We don't 'have' to print or borrow money to buy our way out of this mess.  That is the thing most people will not acknowledge.  The mortgage crisis and  the housing ‘bubble’ were caused by government meddling with Fannie/Freddie loan standards. That sent the whole house of cards tumbling and the cascade of threatened failures that resulted.  More government meddling will not fix this.  You cannot shore up a house of cards.  It's still cards.  It should have been allowed to fall and be rebuilt, even if that meant starting from the ground up.  Sucks to be us.

Foolish people who bought too much house for their means must be allowed to lose them.  Bad companies have to be allowed to fail.  Bad politicians with worse ideas also should to be allowed to fail; I'm doing my part not to get in their way.

I don't think anyone can name three things government does as efficiently and/or cheaply as private industry.  Now government will part owners in AIG, banks, and other failing concerns.  Now government wants to control  health care?  And all of this - plus much more - was put in an 1100-page document nobody who voted on it could even read?

Even though this is all mostly a done deal, I still cannot go along with the can't-we-all-get-along; wait-and-see crowd.  Of course we’ll all just have to ‘sweat it out’ now, what choice?  This is so reminiscent of the FDR New Deal 70 years ago that I cannot believe we have learned nothing from history.  What am I saying?  Of course I can believe it.  We’re still idiots! 

Tell me if any of this sounds familiar:

‘We seldom know six weeks in advance, what we are going to do.’  ‘It is common sense, to take a method and try it: if it fails, admit it frankly and try another.  But above all, try something.’  FDR 

Some of the things he tried:

National Recovery Act (fixed prices and wages).  Forced smaller companies out of business, since lower wages and prices where the only way they could compete with big companies. 

A law in Washington, DC, mandating a minimum monthly wage for women (only), resulting in women losing their jobs to men who were willing to work for much less than that guaranteed wage. 

Agricultural Adjustment Act (subsidized farms by taking acreage out of production and fixed prices).  Designed to curb overproduction and support prices.  In reality production rose because farmers used their cash subsidies to buy fertilizer, and they had taken their worst acreage out of production anyway.  They switched to the crops whose prices were guaranteed, hence, even more overproduction. 

Works Progress Administration (to provide employment and improve infrastructure).  Turned into a giant political patronage system to reward supporters with ‘shovel-leaning’ jobs and to punish detractors.  To get most such jobs, you had to declare your political party, ‘vote right’ and ‘tithe’ to the D party.

Emergency Relief Act (made available to governors to assist the needy in their states).  Since it was supported by huge tax increases, it all but shut off voluntary charitable contributions that traditionally went to the needy.

Excise taxes arbitrarily levied on a few luxury items of the rich such as yachts, furs and jewelry, but also on cars, gasoline, radios, cosmetics, cameras, bank checks, long-distance phone calls and movie tickets used by lower-income groups.

Tariffs on imported goods, which caused other countries to retaliate by taxing or not buying our goods and damaged our export business.

Top income tax bracket for the too-rich (only) 79%  and the IRS was used as a weapon to harass and punish the wealthy, as well as critics of New Deal policies.  Roosevelt was incensed that the wealthy (though he was born to wealth)  used tax loopholes such as charitable deductions and business losses to legally avoid taxes, so he instructed the IRS and Congress to close them.  Meanwhile, FDR himself used such loopholes to deduct the value of materials he donated for his own future presidential library.  He took business losses and farm losses on his personal tax returns. 

Roosevelt was one of those silver-spoon guys, subsidized by someone else’s money (his mother’s) his entire life.  He failed repeatedly in businesses financed by family money.  He had a solid record of picking losers; he thought the airplane was a fad.  He had a lackluster academic career.  Never held a ‘real’ job. His only talents were his personality and charisma.  

Yes, FDR inherited the beginnings of the Great Depression from Herbert Hoover in 1933,  but  Roosevelt’s repeated ‘try something’ efforts to fix it kept it going until World War II. 

Any of this starting to sound familiar?  We’ve been at this exact pivotal point before and we are blowing it again.  Elected another snake oil salesman.  Way to go.

to you closer to the top of this board this date.  I personally am blaming him for using this situation as a power grab to insert himself into control over every aspect of our lives.  Not like we don't have historical precident for all this, and how very badly it went.   

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.  Benjamin Franklin

How long do you consider too long on wait times?  I have alot of friends in Canada that complain all the time about how long it takes them to get in for diagnostic testing.  An MRI of the knee = 6 months.  An abnormal mammogram, ultrasound took = 3 months.  And the stories go on and on.  I worked in QA for about 8-years on one of the largest HMO's here in the US.  One of our projects was a lesion tracking program for breast cancer.  Our acceptable time frame which we entitled "sleepless nights" was 48 hours from time of an abnormal mammogram until the pt. had an ultrasound.  I have worked in several imaging centers where an abnormality was found and additional tests were worked in that day.  From everything I have heard from many of my friends in Canada, is that just doesn't happen there.  A woman I know broke her leg skiing, and she spent 4 days on morphine before they could get it set, it was over a weekend and no ortho doc was available. 

This is what makes me say NO to the type of healthcare system, it reminds me of our county systems here where you go and wait and wait for treatment.

If so, are you sure you comprehend them?  You said, "I, personally, don't think it's the government's job to provide you a job you will love be it a manufacturing job or a higher level professional one."  No one said anything about the government providing you with a job.  She was talking about keeping a job you already have.  A job that you may well love and want to do until the day you retire.

We worry about immigrants coming into our country and taking our jobs, and everyone in the government seems at least slightly concerned about this, yet the government has no problem off-shoring countless American jobs to other countries.  Gee, what's wrong with that picture?  It seems that our middle class is slipping into lower class, and the rich keep getting richer.  Each man for himself seems to be the American way as of late, and some of us, many of us liberals, want to change that mentality.  We need to look out for our working class.