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Let the free market work.

Posted By: nm on 2009-02-09
In Reply to: Tax cuts didn't work - what is your cure? nm - sm

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And...Again......(date) - "let the market take care of it?" - we've seen how well that work

McCain's Emission-Reduction Plan Receives Favorable Review


by: Frank Carlson






P



Posted August 11, 2008 | 11:43 AM (EST)


As U.S. Senators Barack Obama and John McCain begin their long descent into tit-for-tat rhetorical games, it's easy to forget key issues the two still broadly agree on: federally funded stem-cell research; nuclear nonproliferation; comprehensive immigration reform; faith-based social services; and global warming.


Obama and McCain agree that human-induced global warming exists and even on the system America should adopt to counteract it -- cap and trade, a plan that sets a limit (cap) on the amount of greenhouse gases emitted by manufacturers and power plants, for example, and then hands out credits that polluters can trade among themselves to pull themselves within the legal limits. Heavy emitters of greenhouse gases have to buy credits from low-level emitters. Cap-and-trade plans reward all sides for reducing emissions. Low-level emitters reduce in order to pile up additional credits to sell and high-level emitters reduce in order to spend less on credits.


Where Obama and McCain disagree on the plan concerns the role of the government, specifically how the government should allocate permits to companies. And unlike the current, silly spat over tire pressure gauges, this one matters.


Obama favors a full auction of the credits, which would act like a tax on companies, collecting a great deal of money right off the bat for the government to redistribute. This cash, he says, could go to alternative energy research and projects, then the credits would go to markets.


McCain says he would dole out permits in much the same way proposed by the Climate Security Act of 2007. That act failed in June to receive enough Senate support to even bring to a vote, but the basics are the same: Give the great majority of the permits away, and let the market set the price to support investment.


Here is where conventional political lines become blurred.


If you favor a more free market approach, McCain's plan may be for you because the government would collect far less money from businesses for redistribution. But if you're spooked by special interests, political favors for lobbyists and political corruption--as McCain says he is--then perhaps you side with Obama's strategy.


So what does Richard Sandor, architect of the wildly successful cap and trade system for reducing sulfur dioxide(SO2) and now CEO of the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX), say?


He's for a partial auction of credits like the one McCain is backing.


"If you look at full auctioning of permits, what happens?" Sandor asked reporters during a recent interview at his office near the Board of Trade in downtown Chicago. "The day that they are auctioned, you have a net transfer of wealth from the private sector to the public sector at that moment. What, then, happens to climate change? Nothing has happened. You have just had a transfer of wealth.
Climate Exchange, the first voluntary but legally
binding market for trading emissions in North America.


It's better to let the private sector decide where the money should go, Sandor says, which is why he's against a carbon tax. And, he adds, there is precedent for believing so.


"The program that's worked is SO2," Sandor said. "Some amount of auctioning is, I think, OK. We will implement whatever the government does. We don't have an official opinion, but I'm guided by the SO2 program and how it accomplished its objectives so cheaply that that's the way to do it."


Sandor insisted the CCX is not a policy-making entity and that it will implement any system lawmakers put forth. Much like pilots, he said, the CCX will fly whichever planes the engineers--or rather, politicians--design.


"If you design it wrong," he said, "you may have to go 30 extra miles, you may have some accidents, or crashes, and we really speak to the efficacy of the design and leave public policy to the people who are policy makers in Washington. We're not advocates."


The CCX is currently North America's only voluntary but legally binding platform for trading carbon and other emissions. Even without a mandatory cap and trade system in the U.S., many companies have already begun to reduce their emissions in the hopes of improving their public image and perhaps reaping revenues through emissions reductions.


While Sandor explains why he's against Obama's plan for the full auction of credits, his greatest priority is getting mandatory cap and trade in place, whatever the framework. Undoubtedly, this would be a great boon to the CCX, and Sandor believes it is coming.


"Both candidates, McCain and Obama, have publicly embraced it," Sandor said. "I believe in their hearts that they're committed to reducing global warming and see it as a major threat. Is it inevitable? I think so. Could there be bumps? Yes."


Those bumps, worries Sandor, include a terrorist attack that could dislodge global warming from the political agenda in favor of dealing with more immediate problems.


"And that's the nightmare scenario that I worry about because it's easy to not worry about intergenerational problems when you have immediate security needs," he says. "And I'm not suggesting that they aren't more important. In fact, they are. But the thing that will slip will be the longer-based horizon, and I think that's a danger that we have."As U.S. Senators Barack Obama and John McCain begin their long descent into tit-for-tat rhetorical games, it's easy to forget key issues the two still broadly agree on: federally funded stem-cell rese...



As U.S. Senators Barack Obama and John McCain begin their long descent into tit-for-tat rhetorical games, it's easy to forget key issues the two still broadly agree on: federally funded stem-cell rese...

Would you like the employees to work for free?

The union already made major concessions in their contract whereas new hires make 50% of what longer term employees make plus they do not receive the same benefits.  I don't know it to be fact but I expect they have already got rid of a lot of the higher paid workers and replaced them with lower cost new hires.  Sorta like what has been going on in the MT industry!!!!  They'll probably end up filing bankruptcy, using that to void the union contracts and workers will probably be paid $10 an hour with no benefits...if they're lucky.  Of course they'll likely get rid of all union workers as they won't want any union organizers around to rock their corporate boat.


It makes me angry to hear supposedly American worker brothers and sisters trying to lay the blame at the feet of the workers.  Complaining about workers pay while not mentioning a word about the corporate jets that flew these A-hole CEOs to Washington to beg for money is sort of like, as one person said, "going to a soup kitchen in a tuxedo."  Makes me furious.


Let's work towards a FREE society.....
If we want to be FREE, then we need to get rid of policemen, firemen - ALL govt organizations. Privatize everything. Hide your money under your mattress and hope your house doesn't catch fire. What should we do militarily? I don't want to pay taxes to support military - we should be able to check off what we want to support. I'll have my own weapons as I have the right to bear arms. The rich can afford their own small armies and sprinkler systems. We can model our country after the drug lords in South America - they protect their turf and everybody else is on their own. Makes sense to me. Nursing homes and hospitals provide such minimalistic care (due to corporate greed and line item economics) - we can just take out the oldsters like we would put down Ole Yeller when they become a burden. He!!, since all the nonworking people are such a burden - the righteous ones can target practice on them to hone our skills for deer/squirrel/raccoon hunting. If ya wanna be FREE - then, let's REALLY be FREE.
Don't forget about free broadband, free gas, free healthcare, hey they are "rights" now YIP
xxx
Where is the line for free college, free healthcare...
mortgage paid for, free gas and ability to sit on my rear and let everyone else take care of me? Wow, now I see the light...this prez elect will be great!!
Free speech is alive and well, as is free will...

people can take anything out of context and do with it what they want; it still doesn't make it a McCain/Palin issue.


huh, what does that have to do with the market
going down while the O's been in office.

Your attempt at a joke is lame.
stock market
Everybody was playing on the fear factor. Panic sets in and everybody starts selling. According to what I have heard, there are now great stock buys and that is what they are seeing.

Everybody gets so wrapped up in this "sky is falling" mentality and that is what the government hopes.

All their little nay sayers trying to scare the sense out of everybody but what they are hearing from their constiuents say do NOT say yes to the bill. The people do not believe that everything is going to h@ll in a hand basket if they vote NO to the bill.

I'm sure a lot more votes would have been yes yesterday if it had not been for their constituents faxing, calling, and e-mailing telling them they oppose such bailout.
I think a lot of people will do that and the market will
.
Who knows, funny how the market went

out of control when the race was within a few points, which only helps the dems out. The market can easily be manipulated by anyone with money (the Warren Buffets and George Soros' of the world) not to mention other countries.


My take on the whole election though is white guilt is going to push O into office. This is an historic election, people get caught up in the frenzy and emotion of it all, want to be a part of history in some small way, and voting for O seems not only politically correct (did you know you're a racist if you don't vote for him?) but eases a little of the white guilt some people have (another touchy-feely, PC thing to have). A man who has not had to answer tough questions, has little to no experience, has associations with radical tendencies, flip flops on most issues and is willing to wave the white flag is most likely going to be our next president. My only questoin is, what are Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann and all the other lefties going to talk about for the next 4 years? I have a feeling the real truth about O is going to come out in the coming years.


Well here we go. Stock market -411.30 plus

Barney Fife writing proposal now to bail out the automakers with $25B stipulating GOVERNMENT OWNERSHIP.


The government is backing away from buying troubled mortgages and now are going to put it in an investment program taking capital. The facts changed.  His approach is to give banks enough cash to keep homes on the books and keep cash in the banks.


They will not bail out those people who shouldn't have taken out the loans in the first place.


American Express is jumping on the bailout wagon requesting $3.5B.


They really opened a can of worms here.


So the stock market's down.... sm
How bad is it?  According to the article linked below...........

With Thursday’s rout, $8.3 trillion in stock market wealth has been erased in the last 13 months.

For more info......  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/business/21markets.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Thank goodness we got out of the market
in September. Heard Jim Cramer at that time say the economy was going to tank soon; heeded the advice and pulled out that day. O is certainly bringing hope and change to the masses, isn't he? You better hope you have some money to retire on and change your retirement plan!
So what!!!! Where were you when the stock market went down
Haven't you learned your lesson yet. You only comment on a good day and remain silent with the rest of the crats on a bad day.

How many people on this board have been telling you to quit commenting every time the market hiccups. But you feel this need to only comment when it goes up.

Your post is not worth the time reading.
The right has the market cornered on disrespect ...sm
to soldier's families. Hands down they win that award.

Especially if the family has anything contrary to say about this administration. Yeah, and we are the ones who don't support the soldiers.
Hm-m-m. Anybody notice the stock market is up, and

financial gained 16% today. That's curious. Can someone explain why?


I just think it's because the stocks were so low yesterday that it was a buyer's market.


 


 


There are tons of homes on the market.
More homes for sale would bring the price down. The house would be appraised at a reasonable value. Only the sincere folks should be eligible.

Many were owned by private investors who bit off more than they can chew, trying to get rich fast.

My home went up in value by 120,000 from what I paid for it, to settle at $250,000. The guy across the street sold his for that and ours are identical. Now, it is back down to about 150,000. But that is cool cuz I got it for 80,000 (fixer upper). This is calif which means a lot.

I did try to refi twice - Central Valley Mtg offered me nothing but an ARM. He wanted me to take 20,000 of equity out (He said I needed a vacation). I turned it down. (I'm a Suze Ormon fan). He actually threw his pen across the desk when I told him.

Second time, the mtg broker offered me tiered payments, just principal first year, then a low interest rate the next and over 5 years, the interest rate sours. He wanted me to take 20 grand more out to invest in the stock market (lol). Then, refi before the huge interest rates kick in. I walked away on that. He did not even offer a fixed rate. When I requested it, he made it sound like it was out of the question.

Finally, went to WAMU (which is now JP Morgan...) and they refi'ed me with a fixed rate.

Predatory lending at its best.
The stock market went from +250 to -150 after the vote. nm
.
Privatize SS, as in play the market with SS tax $.
and see what you come up with.
How low can she go? No lower with frozen market.
can they stay frozen?  Russian markets closed until Tuesday.  What does it mean with futures are "bottomed out?"  What happens when they do open?  Boy oh boy.  What's up with that?
and here I thought conservatives had the market on
x
Have you noticed how the stock market goes up
or how the media has been fueling that engine by pushing and pushing and obsessing over the cabinet appointments in search of dirt to dig up on them?

Obama has been trying to give voters a little reassurance, but I supposed lots of folks will find something wrong with that too.
The stock market will never, ever, see another dime of

Just because the market is up today doesn't mean

everything is hunky-dorrey. Let's not get over enthusiastic here. The market has been down more than up lately. I would rather wait 6 months to see what's happening before I touch that subject.


As for O laughing in the 60 minutes interview, it doesn't bother me that much. It could be a way for him letting off steam. I, myself, when stressed out (as in federal jury duty), was so relieved the trial was over, I burst out laughing after we left the courtroom. This could be his way of relieving stress.


There's just too much going on in this government that turns me off especially with the bailouts and the so-called stimulus package, and I'm not too happy right now. I don't like the thought that every taxpayer, including my grandchildren or great-childen should I have any, are in debt to the government to the tune of ???, (all different figures thrown around on that).


As for posting, I only post when I have something to say. The news is the same old, same old, nothing interesting or new, so why post garbage like some on this board do. Right now, nothing on the news is piquing my interest.


One question I have.....how can O NOT accept the resignation of someone in his cabinet? That one has me stumped.  Anyone has the right to resign from a job. Since when can you not quit a job? You want to answer that one?


I think this board has the market cornered on trolls. NM

You hold the corner market on derogatory
nm
Any word about money market accounts?

Wow. In the time it took me to post, market lost another
with no end in sight, wiping out just about all those gains on Monday. Bush and clones are not exactly the best choice of spokesmen when trying to restore confidence in the economy. Change is in the air. Can you feel it?
Bush is NOT in charge of the stock market

Wall Street,. Nancy Pelosi, Barney Fife, and the others are making it worse with all their stupid ideas.


They WANT this to happen and give more stimulus checks to people so the people will think they are the greatest since apple pie. 


I don't see any of them trying to figure out what to do that will help us except throw money away to the groups that are keeping the money to pay their bonuses and take trips.


who cares about the stock market anymore? it's
my stock-based 401K is all but gone, and even if i had the money next year, or ever, not a cent of it will ever go back into the stock market's house of cards. so i personally dont give a rip what happens to it from here on out.
Coincidence - people are manipulating the market
DH has been working in the stock market for close to 23 years now. He knows how it is manipulated. I used the same argument to him that whenever Obama appears on TV it goes up. He told me it has nothing to do with that (even though he supported him). He said remember back to the campaign and whenever John McCain was ahead a little in the polls or there was good coverage of him (whetever little there was) the stock market went up and when Obama was ahead in the polls or news the stock market went down. He has two computers. One he watches the market and the other computer he tracks the news all over the world, so he sees what affects and doesn't affect the market. He told me that it's just a coincidence with Obama in the news and the market on the rise because that is the way the media is making it look. He said there are literally thousands and thousands of bankers, investors etc (including overseas investors) that are pourind and dumping millions of dollars on different things to manipulate the market and that's what causes the ups and downs (of course DH takes 3 hours to explain this all to me), but that is it in a nutshell. He said just coincidence. - Darn!
And the stock market LOVES it while Boy Wonder flits around!
//
Market is often disconnected from the economy. Means
Sorry, but you're only exhibiting your ignorance of the stock market.
It would just create a huge black market, and

Scary commentary on Market Ticker today. sm
Looks like we have a rough ride coming. I sure hope it is not the way this guy is calling it. A lot of people are not prepared.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/
There is still a problem with the economy no matter what the market has done today.
nm
Guess that 1-day stock market rally didn't exactly
x
Obama has nothing to do with market... BUSH TANKED OUR COUNTRY nm
nm
Housing market on upswing - good news!



by: Lucia Mutikani  |  Visit article original @ Reuters


photo
US housing starts rose sharply in February, providing some good news for the struggling housing industry. (Photo: AP)



    Washington - New U.S. housing starts and permits unexpectedly rebounded in February, according to data on Tuesday that provided a rare dose of good news for the recession-hit economy and fractured housing market.


    The Commerce Department said housing starts jumped 22.2 percent to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 583,000 units from 477,000 units in January. That was the biggest percentage rise since January 1990 and also marked the first increase since last April.


    "That is an encouraging sign for the U.S. economy. It is good signal of what is to come. With the rally in equities we hopefully have seen a bottom for the economy here," said Matt Esteve, foreign exchange trader at Tempus Consulting in Washington.


    U.S. stocks have been on the rise over the last several days and the major indexes opened flat on Tuesday. U.S. government bond prices trimmed gains after the data and the U.S. dollar fell against the euro as risk aversion eased.


Stock Market diving since Obama spoke today.
nm
McCain has fogotten the stock market crash, mortgage/credit crisis,
unemployment rates, job losses, stagnant wages, rising prices in gas, food, health care, etc, etc, etc.
Those set free

* I don't know what *9/11 perps* you are talking about, but I don't think anyone has gone free.*


'Dr. Germ,' Others Released in Iraq


Monday, December 19, 2005



BAGHDAD, Iraq — About 24 top former officials in Saddam Hussein's regime, including a biological weapons expert known as Dr. Germ, have been released from jail, while a militant group released a video Monday of the purported killing of an American hostage.


The first results of Thursday's parliamentary election were released, with officials saying the Shiite religious bloc, the United Iraqi Alliance, got about 58 percent of the votes from 89 percent of ballot boxes counted in Baghdad province.


Across Iraq, meanwhile, demonstrations broke out to protest a government decision to raise the price of gasoline, heating and cooking fuel, and the oil minister threatened to resign over the development.


An Iraqi lawyer said the 24 or 25 officials from Saddam's government were released from jail without charges, and some have already left the country.


The release was an American-Iraqi decision and in line with an Iraqi government ruling made in December 2004, but hasn't been enforced until after the elections in an attempt to ease the political pressure in Iraq, said the lawyer, Badee Izzat Aref.


Among them were Rihab Taha, a British-educated biological weapons expert, who was known as Dr. Germ for her role in making bio-weapons in the 1980s, and Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, known as Mrs. Anthrax, a former top Baath Party official and biotech researcher, Aref said.


Because of security reasons, some of them want to leave the country, he said. He declined to elaborate, but noted some have already left Iraq today.


Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, would say only that eight individuals formerly designated as high-value detainees were released Saturday after a board process found they were no longer a security threat and no charges would be filed against them.


Neither the U.S. military or Iraqi officials would disclose any of the names, but a legal official in Baghdad said Taha and Ammash were among those released.


The official, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue, said those released also included Hossam Mohammed Amin, head of the weapons inspections directorate, and Aseel Tabra, an Iraqi Olympic Committee official under Odai Saddam Hussein, the former leader's son.


The video from the extremist group The Islamic Army of Iraq was posted on a Web site and showed a man purportedly being shot in the back of the head. Last week, the group had claimed it had killed civilian contractor Ronald Allen Schulz, a native of North Dakota.


The video did not show the victim's face, however, and it was impossible to identify him. The victim was kneeling with his back to the camera, with his hands tied behind his back and blindfolded with an Arab headdress when he was purportedly shot. The video also showed Schulz's identity card.


A separate video, shown on a split screen, showed images of Schulz alive. The group had aired that video when he was first taken hostage earlier this month.


Schulz has been identified by the extremist group as a security consultant for the Iraqi Housing Ministry, although family and neighbors from his current home in Alaska, say he is an industrial electrician who has worked on contracts around the world.


Schulz served in the Marine Corps from 1984 to 1991. He moved to Alaska six years ago, and friends and family say he is divorced.


The German government, meanwhile, said kidnappers had freed a German aid worker and archaeologist taken hostage with her driver in northern Iraq more than three weeks ago. Susanne Osthoff, 43, was reported in good condition at the German Embassy in Baghdad. It was unclear whether Osthoff's Iraqi driver had also been freed.


The military said a U.S. Marine was killed by small arms fire Sunday in the town of Ramadi, in central Iraq. The death brought to 2,156 the number of U.S. service members killed since the start of the war in 2003, according to an Associated Press count.


In other violence Monday, a suicide car bomb exploded outside a children's hospital in western Baghdad, killing at least two people and wounding 11, including seven police, officials said. Police believe the bomb had targeted a convoy carrying a police colonel, who was among the injured.


In western Baghdad, gunmen attacked the convoy of Deputy Baghdad Gov. Ziad Tariq, killing three civilians and wounding three of his bodyguards, police said. Tariq was not injured.


Iraqi soldiers on Monday began Operation Moonlight, which the U.S. military described as the first large-scale operation planned and executed by soldiers of the Iraqi 1st Brigade. The mission's aim is to disrupt insurgent activity along the Euphrates River near the border with Syria.


There are five Iraqi Army companies and one U.S. Marine company taking part in the operation, said Marine Capt. Jeffrey S. Pool.


With 89 percent of the ballot boxes counted in Baghdad province — Iraq's largest district — preliminary results showed the United Iraqi Alliance received 1,403,901 votes, or about 58 percent, while the Sunni Arab Iraqi Accordance party got 451,782 votes, and former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's Iraqi National List with 327,174 votes, the electoral commission said.


The commission did not say how many people voted in Baghdad province or provide further details. Baghdad is Iraq's biggest electoral district with 2,161 candidates running for 59 of the 275 seats in Iraq's parliament.


Results from southern Basra province, also mixed but predominantly Shiite, saw the clergy-backed United Iraqi Alliance significantly ahead, winning 612,206 votes with 98 percent of ballot boxes counted. The list headed by Allawi, a secular Shiite, was in second with 87,134 votes, while the Sunni accordance party trailed with 36,997 votes.


Kurdish parties were overwhelmingly ahead in their three northern provinces.


In a speech Sunday, President Bush praised the vote and warned against a pullout of U.S. forces. He said the election would not end violence but means that America has an ally of growing strength in the fight against terror. He also warned that a U.S. troop pullout would signal to the world that America cannot be trusted to keep its word.


The fuel prices were raised Sunday — some as much as nine times — to curb a growing black market, Oil Ministry spokesman Assem Jihad said.


A gallon of imported and super gasoline in Iraq was raised to about 68 cents, but Iraqis were upset by the fivefold increase. The price of locally produced gas was raised to about 48 cents per gallon, a sevenfold increase.


In Amarah, 180 miles southeast of Baghdad, police fired into the air to disperse the hundreds of protesters who had gathered in front of the provincial government headquarters. The demonstrators, however, didn't leave, and scuffles broke out with police.


Drivers blocked roads and set tires on fire near fuel stations in the southern city of Basra, and hundreds demonstrated outside the governor's headquarters to protest the increases.


Oil Minister Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum said when the Cabinet raised prices, it also decided that the extra money would be used to support more than 2 million low-income families. Some aid money was supposed to reach the families before the increases, but that didn't happen, he said.


Dr. Ibrahim will submit his resignation to the Iraqi government if the situation continues as is, he said, referring to himself. We should take in consideration the living conditions and the economic situation of the citizens.


Iraq's oil minister has previously said that cheap domestic fuel prices had encouraged smuggling to other countries. Iraq's government has continued Saddam's practice of heavily subsidizing fuel prices.


http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,179103,00.html


None of us are free....

SLide show with music, worth watching.  The song is also one of my favorites.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8199.htm


Free will...sm
We used our free will to invade Iraq. We have free will to do a lot of things that does not make them right. There is more than one way to help ourselves. The Iraqi war is not the answer to all woes.


You are free to tell them what you want...sm
If that will make your day then get right up from your warm home and computer and go tell them what I said (pun intended).

When I said the protests will not stop, I was stating the obvious. They will have to serve and ignore or serve and pay attention and let it bring their morale down.

I know democrats cosigned on the war (whether they felt Bush would preemptively go in or not). They are not catching a break about it either, Obama and Hillary were called on the carpet on it this weekend as they should be.

You obviously know someone who will get free
xx
Again, I believe that it is not free--yet.
What will we do when all of these poor people can't afford it--lower the prices and give it away to those unwilling to work at all. I am only implying that it is a slippery slope.
You can get one free

for a $500,000 contribution to the RNC.


 


Oh He**. Let's just free everybody from
GOVERNMENT SUCKS!!!!!! IT IS OUT OF CONTROL. I know, so am I right now. Taking a break from the news. Oh GOD, when are you coming? This world is OUT OF CONTROL.
Would you rather pay for nothing than get it for free?

Do you really think the government will give us worse insurance than the for-profit insurers are doing now?   Really???


I'm sick of paying something for nothing - after all the deductibles, out of pocket charges, copays and disallowed claims - that's pretty much what we get.  I'd rather take the money I pay in premiums to a greedy corporation who will refuse to pay a cent when the time comes I need them - and pay it in taxes for a free healtchare plan.  At least everybody would be in the same boat, with no nasty surprises.


You are still here, right? Still free?
nm