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And...Again......(date) - "let the market take care of it?" - we've seen how well that work

Posted By: Mrs. Bridger on 2009-03-16
In Reply to: A New Way To Tax the Middle Class - sm


McCain's Emission-Reduction Plan Receives Favorable Review


by: Frank Carlson






P



Posted August 11, 2008 | 11:43 AM (EST)


As U.S. Senators Barack Obama and John McCain begin their long descent into tit-for-tat rhetorical games, it's easy to forget key issues the two still broadly agree on: federally funded stem-cell research; nuclear nonproliferation; comprehensive immigration reform; faith-based social services; and global warming.


Obama and McCain agree that human-induced global warming exists and even on the system America should adopt to counteract it -- cap and trade, a plan that sets a limit (cap) on the amount of greenhouse gases emitted by manufacturers and power plants, for example, and then hands out credits that polluters can trade among themselves to pull themselves within the legal limits. Heavy emitters of greenhouse gases have to buy credits from low-level emitters. Cap-and-trade plans reward all sides for reducing emissions. Low-level emitters reduce in order to pile up additional credits to sell and high-level emitters reduce in order to spend less on credits.


Where Obama and McCain disagree on the plan concerns the role of the government, specifically how the government should allocate permits to companies. And unlike the current, silly spat over tire pressure gauges, this one matters.


Obama favors a full auction of the credits, which would act like a tax on companies, collecting a great deal of money right off the bat for the government to redistribute. This cash, he says, could go to alternative energy research and projects, then the credits would go to markets.


McCain says he would dole out permits in much the same way proposed by the Climate Security Act of 2007. That act failed in June to receive enough Senate support to even bring to a vote, but the basics are the same: Give the great majority of the permits away, and let the market set the price to support investment.


Here is where conventional political lines become blurred.


If you favor a more free market approach, McCain's plan may be for you because the government would collect far less money from businesses for redistribution. But if you're spooked by special interests, political favors for lobbyists and political corruption--as McCain says he is--then perhaps you side with Obama's strategy.


So what does Richard Sandor, architect of the wildly successful cap and trade system for reducing sulfur dioxide(SO2) and now CEO of the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX), say?


He's for a partial auction of credits like the one McCain is backing.


"If you look at full auctioning of permits, what happens?" Sandor asked reporters during a recent interview at his office near the Board of Trade in downtown Chicago. "The day that they are auctioned, you have a net transfer of wealth from the private sector to the public sector at that moment. What, then, happens to climate change? Nothing has happened. You have just had a transfer of wealth.
Climate Exchange, the first voluntary but legally
binding market for trading emissions in North America.


It's better to let the private sector decide where the money should go, Sandor says, which is why he's against a carbon tax. And, he adds, there is precedent for believing so.


"The program that's worked is SO2," Sandor said. "Some amount of auctioning is, I think, OK. We will implement whatever the government does. We don't have an official opinion, but I'm guided by the SO2 program and how it accomplished its objectives so cheaply that that's the way to do it."


Sandor insisted the CCX is not a policy-making entity and that it will implement any system lawmakers put forth. Much like pilots, he said, the CCX will fly whichever planes the engineers--or rather, politicians--design.


"If you design it wrong," he said, "you may have to go 30 extra miles, you may have some accidents, or crashes, and we really speak to the efficacy of the design and leave public policy to the people who are policy makers in Washington. We're not advocates."


The CCX is currently North America's only voluntary but legally binding platform for trading carbon and other emissions. Even without a mandatory cap and trade system in the U.S., many companies have already begun to reduce their emissions in the hopes of improving their public image and perhaps reaping revenues through emissions reductions.


While Sandor explains why he's against Obama's plan for the full auction of credits, his greatest priority is getting mandatory cap and trade in place, whatever the framework. Undoubtedly, this would be a great boon to the CCX, and Sandor believes it is coming.


"Both candidates, McCain and Obama, have publicly embraced it," Sandor said. "I believe in their hearts that they're committed to reducing global warming and see it as a major threat. Is it inevitable? I think so. Could there be bumps? Yes."


Those bumps, worries Sandor, include a terrorist attack that could dislodge global warming from the political agenda in favor of dealing with more immediate problems.


"And that's the nightmare scenario that I worry about because it's easy to not worry about intergenerational problems when you have immediate security needs," he says. "And I'm not suggesting that they aren't more important. In fact, they are. But the thing that will slip will be the longer-based horizon, and I think that's a danger that we have."As U.S. Senators Barack Obama and John McCain begin their long descent into tit-for-tat rhetorical games, it's easy to forget key issues the two still broadly agree on: federally funded stem-cell rese...



As U.S. Senators Barack Obama and John McCain begin their long descent into tit-for-tat rhetorical games, it's easy to forget key issues the two still broadly agree on: federally funded stem-cell rese...



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"Let older Americans die without care" is not what he said - it is an outright lie
x
Let the free market work.
x
Because the health care plan we have does not work at all.
10,000 deductible a year which is taking 10 grand from my yearly income a year.

Canada's health care plan works. Duplicate it.

Figure something out that doesnt make lobbyists and CEOs of ins. co. filthy rich.

Sound unreasonable? If so, and you think everyth8ing is just ~fine~ you should seek some help for the sake of your country.
That's just lame, no cheese here, I work but I will take care of the poor unlike YOU nm
nm
"Let them eat cake." sm
That was what Marie Antoinette said to the peasants. And what happened to her?? She lost her head. Eventually the little people will get some of theirs back...I just hope I am still around to see it happen.
I would think if they bring them here, when they "let them loose", they would send 'em home
x
What was the date of this?

I'm trying to find this, but no luck so far.


I think it is more of a problem regarding the date.
The URL had changed.  It worked yesterday when I posted it, and that's why Starcat was able to see it.
yeah, i used to date him
nm
Uh...the DATE was 9/11/2001
I do believe that was Dumb-ya's administration. Why don't you read a book? You need some education.
Tell you what, let's arrange a date. We
and let the man, Jesus, explain it all to us while we are walking on the streets of gold and worshipping Him on the streets of gold and he is teaching us Himself all the mysteries that are not unfolded in this life. There will be plenty of time and He will speak in a language we will all understand!
their date night out --
http://mediamatters.org/research/200906010027First, according to this article, the Obama's paid for their own tickets and dinner.  The rest, of course we footed the bill, he had to have security, he had to have his staff, and he had to have his transportation.  That is nothing new - we have done that for every President.I do not expect him to give up his life and be in the White House 24/7 for the entire presidency.  He has to have some fun time with his family and friends or he would go crazy.I don't like the amount of money it takes to do the things the President(s) do, but it is a necessary expense in my mind.  If a man or woman knew they could never leave home again as long as they were serving that they could never move or travel, then nobody would want the job.
Maybe he will sell it to pay for his date

who could possibly care? War, financial ruin, health care needs.

nm


 


I think the kid just wants Ann Coulter to be his date to the prom.

Did you notice the date? Have you checked out
huge bodies of evidence to the contrary? Besides that, what's your point?
Here's a funny for you. Note the date.

James I. Blakslee


"Pledged to vote for Woodrow Wilson and support the reorganization of the Democratic Party"


"Democrats in every county in Pennsylvania have been betrayed times without number and to-day trickery and deception walk hand in hand to again mislead them"


"Canidates have been found, who, for a price, are willing to represent the twin-machine traitors."


"Every alert, active Democrat will easily detect the tricksters, and on Saturday, April 13th, 1912, between the hours of 2 PM and 8 PM, will register his vote for the Purification of this Party."


I get a kick out of that.


Bristol Palin's Due Date
According to Levi Johnson, the baby daddy, Bristol Palin's due date is TODAY, December 18. It'll be interesting to see and hear what happens or doesn't happen in the next couple of weeks.

Here's how desperate the GOP is: During their convention, in September the religious family-values party trotted out an unwed teenage mother-to-be and the knucklehead who knocked her up, and they gave them a standing ovation.
Evidently, this is nothing new - check date


Potentially Big News on Lieberman's Cap-and-Trade Proposal



Posted September 20, 2007 | 05:06 PM (EST) 
 




Recently, one of the most irksome members of the Senate, Joe Lieberman (I-Clowntown) expressed openness to one of the boldest and most effective climate-change policies possible. Some background,

 





A cap-and-trade system begins by placing a cap on carbon emissions and distributing permits (permission to emit a certain amount of CO2) equal to the capped amount. The notion is that permits will be bought and sold, allowing market forces to determine where emission reductions can be made fastest and easiest. The question is how to distribute those initial permits.


When the EU carbon trading system was established, permits were given away based on emissions, meaning the biggest polluters got the most permits. The idea was that those polluters most needed the money because they had the biggest reductions to make, but in practice it was an enormous financial windfall for their shareholders and prompted very little action on their part to reduce emissions.


The alternative is to sell the permits at auction. This would, in effect, put the proceeds in government coffers rather than in the pockets of utility shareholders. The question then becomes: what should the gov't do with all that money (up to $50B a year)?


The Lieberman-Warner cap-and-trade proposal, released early this year, was widely seen as the "moderate" bill that could get some support from Senate Republicans. One of the biggest criticisms it faced is that it would auction only 20% of the permits -- 80% would be given away to polluters.


But an intriguing item in Politico indicates that Lieberman may be open to changing that:


Lieberman, following a forum sponsored by the Progressive Policy Institute Wednesday, said such a change to his legislation was possible. "We've heard [calls for a 100 percent auction] from some stakeholders and heard that from some of our members. We're thinking about it. Warner and I haven't closed our minds to that. It's on the table," he said.

This could be huge news. The L-W proposal is viewed as the middle of the road. If it moves to 100% auctioned credits, that will effectively sanctify it as the new baseline. The policy and political implications are both huge.


Are you up to date on canadian journalism and who
What was once one of the best papers in Canada has been overthrown by crooks and cronies alike.....with their very liberal agendas! And you think you're getting a fair and balanced viewpoint from them? Humpf!!


http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/73/The_Death_of_Canadian_Journalism.html
OH PLEEEESE. I go out on a date night, but
or a fancy New York dinner. It is more like a picnic in the park and then to a movie.
date night at home
often just order a pizza and rent a movie. That's time together!
One of the most eloquent posts to date! I hope you
everywhere you can, and not the lies that the 'pubs have been throwing around for far too long. The last 8 years have erased any and all hope that I will:
1 - Be able to retire.
2 - Be able to own a home.
3 - Be able to continue to fund my savings or IRA instead of siphoning from them.
4 - Be able to feel any sense of security whatsoever.
5 - Be able to travel any further than the local K-Mart two towns away, and be able to afford much once I get there.
Aaah, I see you're not up to date on the latest
@@
Aaah, I see you're not up to date on the latest
--
It is still on the docket slated for a court date
--
Check the date on your link. Four years ago.
in 2008, now that the free market has gone belly up under the weight of its own corruption.
Petty or not, going on a date with taxpayer money
nm
trial date set for muzzammil hassan
The "moderate Muslim" who beheaded his wife right here in New York because she served him with with divorce papers and an order of protection. And it's only second degree murder????

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hN-I2OcI1NDn2q5_0TXl11ZhirEQD98JV2080
This is creepy. Check out the date on this video clip.sm
I remember when all the christians were freaking out over this speech.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6012144166694761701
Zell gave that speech exactly 4 years ago to the date... nm
x
He feels O's date for Gitmo closure is bad idea
nm
huh, what does that have to do with the market
going down while the O's been in office.

Your attempt at a joke is lame.
stock market
Everybody was playing on the fear factor. Panic sets in and everybody starts selling. According to what I have heard, there are now great stock buys and that is what they are seeing.

Everybody gets so wrapped up in this "sky is falling" mentality and that is what the government hopes.

All their little nay sayers trying to scare the sense out of everybody but what they are hearing from their constiuents say do NOT say yes to the bill. The people do not believe that everything is going to h@ll in a hand basket if they vote NO to the bill.

I'm sure a lot more votes would have been yes yesterday if it had not been for their constituents faxing, calling, and e-mailing telling them they oppose such bailout.
I think a lot of people will do that and the market will
.
Who knows, funny how the market went

out of control when the race was within a few points, which only helps the dems out. The market can easily be manipulated by anyone with money (the Warren Buffets and George Soros' of the world) not to mention other countries.


My take on the whole election though is white guilt is going to push O into office. This is an historic election, people get caught up in the frenzy and emotion of it all, want to be a part of history in some small way, and voting for O seems not only politically correct (did you know you're a racist if you don't vote for him?) but eases a little of the white guilt some people have (another touchy-feely, PC thing to have). A man who has not had to answer tough questions, has little to no experience, has associations with radical tendencies, flip flops on most issues and is willing to wave the white flag is most likely going to be our next president. My only questoin is, what are Chris Matthews, Keith Olbermann and all the other lefties going to talk about for the next 4 years? I have a feeling the real truth about O is going to come out in the coming years.


Well here we go. Stock market -411.30 plus

Barney Fife writing proposal now to bail out the automakers with $25B stipulating GOVERNMENT OWNERSHIP.


The government is backing away from buying troubled mortgages and now are going to put it in an investment program taking capital. The facts changed.  His approach is to give banks enough cash to keep homes on the books and keep cash in the banks.


They will not bail out those people who shouldn't have taken out the loans in the first place.


American Express is jumping on the bailout wagon requesting $3.5B.


They really opened a can of worms here.


So the stock market's down.... sm
How bad is it?  According to the article linked below...........

With Thursday’s rout, $8.3 trillion in stock market wealth has been erased in the last 13 months.

For more info......  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/business/21markets.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Thank goodness we got out of the market
in September. Heard Jim Cramer at that time say the economy was going to tank soon; heeded the advice and pulled out that day. O is certainly bringing hope and change to the masses, isn't he? You better hope you have some money to retire on and change your retirement plan!
So what!!!! Where were you when the stock market went down
Haven't you learned your lesson yet. You only comment on a good day and remain silent with the rest of the crats on a bad day.

How many people on this board have been telling you to quit commenting every time the market hiccups. But you feel this need to only comment when it goes up.

Your post is not worth the time reading.
The right has the market cornered on disrespect ...sm
to soldier's families. Hands down they win that award.

Especially if the family has anything contrary to say about this administration. Yeah, and we are the ones who don't support the soldiers.
Hm-m-m. Anybody notice the stock market is up, and

financial gained 16% today. That's curious. Can someone explain why?


I just think it's because the stocks were so low yesterday that it was a buyer's market.


 


 


There are tons of homes on the market.
More homes for sale would bring the price down. The house would be appraised at a reasonable value. Only the sincere folks should be eligible.

Many were owned by private investors who bit off more than they can chew, trying to get rich fast.

My home went up in value by 120,000 from what I paid for it, to settle at $250,000. The guy across the street sold his for that and ours are identical. Now, it is back down to about 150,000. But that is cool cuz I got it for 80,000 (fixer upper). This is calif which means a lot.

I did try to refi twice - Central Valley Mtg offered me nothing but an ARM. He wanted me to take 20,000 of equity out (He said I needed a vacation). I turned it down. (I'm a Suze Ormon fan). He actually threw his pen across the desk when I told him.

Second time, the mtg broker offered me tiered payments, just principal first year, then a low interest rate the next and over 5 years, the interest rate sours. He wanted me to take 20 grand more out to invest in the stock market (lol). Then, refi before the huge interest rates kick in. I walked away on that. He did not even offer a fixed rate. When I requested it, he made it sound like it was out of the question.

Finally, went to WAMU (which is now JP Morgan...) and they refi'ed me with a fixed rate.

Predatory lending at its best.
The stock market went from +250 to -150 after the vote. nm
.
Privatize SS, as in play the market with SS tax $.
and see what you come up with.
How low can she go? No lower with frozen market.
can they stay frozen?  Russian markets closed until Tuesday.  What does it mean with futures are "bottomed out?"  What happens when they do open?  Boy oh boy.  What's up with that?
and here I thought conservatives had the market on
x
Have you noticed how the stock market goes up
or how the media has been fueling that engine by pushing and pushing and obsessing over the cabinet appointments in search of dirt to dig up on them?

Obama has been trying to give voters a little reassurance, but I supposed lots of folks will find something wrong with that too.
The stock market will never, ever, see another dime of

Just because the market is up today doesn't mean

everything is hunky-dorrey. Let's not get over enthusiastic here. The market has been down more than up lately. I would rather wait 6 months to see what's happening before I touch that subject.


As for O laughing in the 60 minutes interview, it doesn't bother me that much. It could be a way for him letting off steam. I, myself, when stressed out (as in federal jury duty), was so relieved the trial was over, I burst out laughing after we left the courtroom. This could be his way of relieving stress.


There's just too much going on in this government that turns me off especially with the bailouts and the so-called stimulus package, and I'm not too happy right now. I don't like the thought that every taxpayer, including my grandchildren or great-childen should I have any, are in debt to the government to the tune of ???, (all different figures thrown around on that).


As for posting, I only post when I have something to say. The news is the same old, same old, nothing interesting or new, so why post garbage like some on this board do. Right now, nothing on the news is piquing my interest.


One question I have.....how can O NOT accept the resignation of someone in his cabinet? That one has me stumped.  Anyone has the right to resign from a job. Since when can you not quit a job? You want to answer that one?


I think this board has the market cornered on trolls. NM