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Since when is a tax cut welfare? Corporate bail-outs, maybe...

Posted By: but tax cuts? JM proposes them for... on 2008-10-17
In Reply to: O's plan is WELFARE, figures you dems want that - another handout to those paying NO taxes.nm

corporations and plans to continue W's tax cuts for the rich in 2011. Is that welfare too? Sheesh.


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445,000 per citizen is the bill for the bail outs.
And what then? The govt will own our homes and regulation will take on a whole new meaning.

This is called fascism.
So those corporate welfare deadbeats
don't count as socialism? Wait...this bulletin just in. Nobody cares about your e-mail.
Does corporate welfare qualify as wealth redistribution
nm
Hand outs?
My handicapped son had to go to the SS office today so they could review his SSI. Because he made $2,040 last year at the sheltered workshop he works in, they are cutting his benefits back. He can't live alone and he is barely making it sharing a house with his sister at his present level of benefits. So, tell me about all the free handouts.
What about the corporate greed fctor?
x
Absolutely! No corporate giveaways! nm
x
Big-3 corporate CEOs arrived in Washington in - sm
PRIVATE Lear jets to ask for a bailout. Proof positive that those people don't have a clue how to run a successful business, which is why the auto industry is now failing.

I don't want to see them get a penny only to squander it. Before I'd give a thumbs-up to any kind of a bailout, they need to:

a) SELL the jets.

b) Redesign, retool, and get out of bed with the oil industry, so they can get us independent of fossil fuels. If they had used their brains, and built cars that were equal to or better than the foreign manufacturers in quality, safety, and efficiency, they wouldn't be in this pickle. But no, they wanted their big profits NOW, and screw the future. Well, the future has now come and bit them in the behind.

c) Part of the retooling process should include dumping the CEOs (who are obviously worthless) and all upper management. The average Joe line-assemblyman could probably run those companies better than the fat-cat CEO's have been doing.
NO! Major corporate & CEO greed & mismanagement
Same thing happened to Mervyn's Dept. Stores... greedy big company bought them up, then ran them into the ground. They were great stores, too.

No tears shed here for the corporate shake-outs going on in many industries: Auto, financial, stock market, power, etc. I just hope they eventually grab the HEALTH CARE industry by the scruff of the neck and give it a good shaking, as well. NO PITY HERE.
The economy was ruined by corporate greed, stock
* nm *
Corporate greed, politician back-scratching,

Larger-Than-Life Corporate Salaries are Unfair to Average American Workers. see article.

Commentary: Larger-Than-Life Corporate Salaries are Unfair to Average American Workers


Date: Friday, April 14, 2006
By: Judge Greg Mathis, BlackAmericaWeb.com



Despite slower-than-anticipated growth and lower-than-expected profits, many corporations have generously rewarded their leaders, while simultaneously reducing lower-level staff salaries and benefits in an attempt to control costs. This disturbing practice only serves to further widen the gap between America’s wealthy few and its working class and clearly demonstrates just how little this country values its workforce.


At a time when most American workers are struggling to make basic ends meet and worrying how they’ll manage to save enough for retirement, many of this country’s corporate chief executives are stuffing their pockets with larger-than-life compensation packages that include high base salaries, stock options and ample pension plans. In 2004, the average chief executive’s salary at a large company was more than 170 times that of the average worker’s pay. Last year, executive salaries grew 25 percent, while that of the average American worker grew only 3.1 percent. 




Even when a company struggles, their CEOs are still rewarded. For example, the current CEO of a global manufacturing firm received over $11 million in compensation last year, despite the company’s $3.4 billion revenue loss, an 11-percent drop in stock value and a staff reduction of 17,000 workers. There are similar stories at corporations across the country. While worker pensions are frozen and many are asked to do without raises, CEOs manage to earn their multi-million dollar bonuses.


It’s no surprise that CEOs are cleaning up. Consider this: Corporations often use compensation committees to set their executive salaries. Many of these committees use outside consultants to help guide the process. These consultants are often already contracted to do other work for the company. The conflict of interest here is obvious: The consultant won’t upset the CEO -- and risk losing other contracts -- by setting a more realistic, performance based pay model.


Many corporate CEOs are, in short, getting over, and it is a slap in the face of every American worker. While it is understood that executive salaries would greatly exceed that of the average worker’s, there is no logical argument to explain why the growth rate between the two is so dramatically different. To protect its workforce, corporate America must ensure worker’s salaries grow at rates that keep pace with the cost of living, while slowing the rate of growth of CEO salaries. Corporate boards must stop rewarding CEOs with multi-million dollar bonuses. It is unacceptable for a company to lay off thousands of workers and then turn around and pay an executive for a job well done.


As a country, we often ask our government to think about the needs of the average American, and rightly so. However, if America is to truly prosper, the corporations that feed our local economy must also consider and respect the well-being of average worker.


---


Judge Greg Mathis is national vice president of Rainbow PUSH and a national board member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.


Well, it would not have been necessary to bail out...
FM/FM had the Democrats running it not stolen it blind, and the "reform" bill the Dems passed that nailed the coffin shut.

Obama dogged and hounded by the media? Are you JOKING? Any interview he did was on the softball channels where he never got a real question...were you even watching? He would not go on Fox where he knew he would have to answer the tough questions until this week. Hounded by the press my eye...only to fawn over him. Sheesh...lol
do you think they should just bail out
what kind of solution do you propose?
we bail out ceo's ......
It's okay to pump billions into the auto industry and wall street but not into our own people?
So what happens when we bail them out?

See!  We bail out the big guys and the money goes straight to the CEOs that ran the company into the ground, rewarding their incompetence!  Oh, lets hurry and bail out the automakers too!


WASHINGTON - American International Group is paying out millions of dollars in executive bonuses to meet a Sunday deadline. But the troubled insurance giant has agreed to administration demands to restrain future payments.


The Treasury Department determined that the government did not have the legal authority to block the current payments by the company that has already received more than $170 billion in U.S. support.


AIG declared earlier this month that it had suffered a loss of $61.7 billion for the fourth quarter of last year, the largest corporate loss in history.


Here's what happens when we bail them out: sm
AIG accepted our money after losing 60 billion, and guess what?  They are paying out 167 million in bonuses.  Why is this allowed to happen?  How can you lose that much money, accept money in bailouts, and then have the unmitigated gall to pay yourselves bonuses? This is UNACCEPTABLE!!  Out and out thievery!!
Do you think our government should bail out FM/FM

Just wondered what everyone thinks about this subject.  I haven't seen it discussed yet and if it has been sorry.  Do you think the government should bail out these two institutions and if so, or not so, why?


I heard someone on the TV today (didn't recognize the name but he's an idependent) he asked the question, so is it going to be the people who make $30K a year the ones who pay for this or the billionaires and trillionaires?  I thought that was a good point.


Also I heard that one of the guys in charge (forget his name right now) made over $90 million and he isn't paying anything.  I would think that if you make over $90M on this and you run it into the ground you should have to forfeit whatever you made and pay it back (but that's my own opinion).


 


the bail out really irks me
I think they should just let them fail and use the 700 billion or whatever it is to try and clean up the fallout from this mess. These greedy b@$st@rds need to deal with the consequences. I really don't get it. I thought you had to have mortgage insurance if you didn't have enough down. My sister has to pay for mortgage insurance, and it's highly unlikely that she is going to default on her mortgage (for one thing, she bought what she could afford). And as far a people losing their homes, well maybe they should move into homes they can afford anyway. There are nice 1-bedroom apartments in Harrisburg for $540, including utilities. Sounds good to me. grrrr....
The reason behind the bail out is

to put money back into the market.  If we do nothing at all, the result is likely to be horrific.  We have to do something to get money back into the market.  However, bailing out these big banks and making us foot the bill is unacceptable to me.  These banks and their big wigs should learn the consequences of their actions and not just walk away with a heck of a lot more money than I will ever see in my lifetime.  This initial bail out is just a band-aid really.  Our economy is collapsing and this bail out will slow down the collapse but there is no guarantee that it will stop it.


Right now they are debating about how to go about this bail out.  Some want the bail out left like it is with us taxpayers footing the bill.  Others are trying to come up with a plan to not make the burden on us and yet still get money into the market.  That is why no agreement has been made. 


My fear is that if we bail them out

what have they learned.  They obviously won't have any consequences to their actions.  We will be the ones to suffer for their greed and crimes.  However, what is to become of us if we don't bail them out?  I really don't know the answer to this.  I am just thoroughly ticked off that our government has allowed things to get like this.  Now they are sitting around crying and whining, pointing fingers, wanting special interests included in the bill, etc.  I'm just so disgusted. 


Is anyone actually in favor of the bail out?

I personally think that we should just let the banks fail and not save their greedy banker butts.  It seems like that's the way a lot of other people feel too.  I haven't heard one person say let's save their greedy banker butts.  However, I'm pretty sure that congress will bail them out.  If I could vote on this, I would definitely say no, no matter what consequence to myself (drop in stock, retirement and possibly the value of my home, no loan for college next semester). 


Are there any average Americans out there that are for this?


bail out the world?
So we have to borrow our own money so we can bail out the world? Call your Senator.
Auto bail out s/m

Read the following report.  8-10% of total cost doesn't seem like a huge percentage for labor costs.  Maybe they can't afford  the big salaries and bonuses for the top dogs?  About time the wealth started being redistributed.  Funny I haven't heard any outrage over the outrageous salaries the top dogs in these automobile business are paid.  Just whining about how much the UAW workers are paid.  It's about time the working class started standing up for the working class!!!!!


Let 'em all go bankrupt. I have no doubt the idjits in Washington are way more concerned about job losses in "developing countries" than those of American citizens.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout_gettelfinger


Did you see where if we bail out the automakers - see msg
There are people that are laid off and have been laid off for years that are drawing $31 an hour to just sit in a room - they play checkers, they read, they watch TV, or they sleep and stare at the walls.  It is a guaranteed thing that cannot be stopped except through bankruptcy (and they may have to pay them off even then).  So in effect, if we bail out the automakers, we who are struggling to make our money in this world will be paying those people to keep sitting there!!!
How many think you should bail out illegal

what would that matter? you want to bail them out?
nm
I don't think we should bail out anyone's mortgage.
Anyone who took out a mortgage and signed a contract to repay the loan and needs to do so. I don't care if they are illegal aliens, legal aliens, space aliens, or United States citizens.
bail out.. Amen, sam. Disgusted with
the whole dang bunch of them, for sure. As far as this bail out goes, I think those at the top who made so many millions and apparently will just go on, should be treated the same way as Ken Lay and others of Enron fame. They should pay it back, confiscate their new homes and boats or whatever they have bought, do jail time and be forced out of their elite positions. Of course, by the time congress does an investigation they will no longer be around anyway. But I do not think they should continue to give away our jobs to nontax paying people and still fall back on the age old answer of taxing us. Even my math is better than that!
Fear is that they will still collapse even after the bail out.
Hedge funds are about to fold. Derivatives which I do not understand are a whole other ballgame - They are what made the hedge fund managers millionaires - it is like betting on stocks (as one would with football) and is somehow linked to the stock market.

This site explains it well:

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/06/derivatives-market-is-unwinding.html
What is the bank bail-out if not socialism? s/m
Maybe you'd have better luck with your employees if you gave them a raise.  If you have a profit margin that allows you to give them a 25% bonus, surely a 10% raise wouldn't cause you to suffer too much.
And if we did bail out the auto industry......sm
how much is that going to cost us and where is the money going to come from?

I realize this country's economy is in the toilet at this point and people are hurting everywhere, but my question is, like I said above, where is the money going to come from (I don't believe tax increases on the wealthy are going to cover the tab) and what is going to happen when "they" call in the loans?
I think they shouldn't bail them out. They're
All those crooks in the banking, insurance/HMO industries, and most certainly Wall Street, need to be held accountable, have all of their assets seized to help pay for this, and then they should all be sent to Guantanamo Bay to rot.
And we bail out Wall St. who created this mess.....
Didja watch House of Cards? That spelled it out pretty succinctly. People were sucked into mortgages they couldn't afford, they were told they could refinance in 1-5 years and keep the mortgage payments they could afford - THEY WERE LIED TO. The bankers and Wall St. had to keep that Ponzi scheme going.......pizza delivery drivers were selling mortgages!! The more they sold, the more money they made - upwards $20,000 per month - they sucked people into refinancing to put cash in their pockets because housing values were skyrocketing.......and it all crashed down. So who did we bail out first? The banks and Wall St.............not the people who got screwed by con men. And these people were not POOR - they just got sucked into buying more house than they could afford. So, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
While I have to admit that the Republicans started this whole bail out thing...
I really thought we were going to get change with Obama. I didn't vote for him, but this isn't just a continuation of the same old mess, this is adding on to it. You can't blame all of the dems for it, either - there are a couple of repubs signing on as well. I'm pretty sure that this isn't what those who voted for Obama signed on for.

All I can tell you is be sure to write your congressman about this - if you need email addresses or such, go to Congress.org - there's a place to put in your zip code and it gives you the names of all of the reps from your area. Doing that is a much better outlet than attacking each other on this board.
Excellent idea. I'm also charging up my cards, so I hope you bail me out! SM
But wait. If I bail you out and you bail me out and we bail out AIG and the government bails out mortgage-skippers and China bails out the US and...somebody tell me again, where does all this money come from? It's all so confusing.
Foreign investors. China and Russia insisted on Fannie Mac bail out.
dd
MT on welfare.

I took my first MT job in 1974 when we were still respected hospital employees with benefits.  In 1976 I had my first child and in 1980 I became a singe parent.  Between 1974 and 1992, I worked between 40 and 50 hours every single week of my life, worked all holidays because I needed the extra pay and had an interval between 1986 and 1993 where I did not take one single vacation day because I bought a home to get my son away from the gang problems that became concentrated in apartment complexes.  During those years, I developed hypertension at age 34 and progressive, unrelenting back pain in 1987.  With the help of ibuprofen and regular exercise, I worked through it and never skipped a beat.  For those who may not remember, 1986 was when outsourcing happened and in the years to follow, not one single start-up MTSO offered medical benefits.    


 


In 1992 I began to develop significant insomnia due to the chronic pain.  One morning, after tossing and turning through the night, I got out of bed and found myself unable to stand erect because of the pain.  For the next week or so, I had to crawl around on my hands and knees and was unable to work.  I got behind in my bills, depressed and was utterly exhausted.  I had a physical and "nervous" breakdown that landed me in a psychiatric facility where I received much needed rest and treatment.  I couldn't afford to pay that bill.    


 


I lost my car, my job and my house.  My son had to go to live with his father since I could not feed him and at age 40 I had to move back in with my aging mother.  I tried to apply for social security disability just long enough to get job retraining and get back on my feet again.  I was denied those benefits.  I applied for unemployment and food stamps and entered the county medical health care system.  I was not able to achieve rehabilitation and recovery sufficient to enable me to return to transcription.  I ended up out of work for 7 years while I figured out my own rehabilitation and lived with my elderly mother who could not really afford to support the extra expense of feeding me on a fixed social security/retirement income.  My unemployment benefits ran out, but I stayed on food stamps for 3 of those years for her sake until I returned to school on a student loan and later on scholarship.  When mhy mother's health deteriorated, I became her terminal care attendant and had to leave school.   


 


I am no slacker.  It took me 7 years to recover from the disability I sustained from medical transcription and single parenthood.  When I was able to return to work, I did.  I still transcribe and at age 59, have developed the same back problems I had that disabled me in 1993.  I am simply trying to scratch my way to retirement, which probable will commence for me one I drop dead in front of the computer.  I would not wish this fate on anyone, but if any of you, your family or your friends ever do encounter such circumstances for whatever reason, (i.e., death of a spouse, for example) and need assistance, you will come to understand the importance of welfare and will never view it with the cold-blooded, icy, self-righteous indignation that some on this board have expressed. 


 

Before you come back with "that's the exception, not the rule," don't bother.  I saw plenty of others in my situation along the way, especially during the 6-8 hours I spent in the waiting rooms at the county hospital before MD appointments.  I am no better and no worse than any of them.  Same human beings, facing the same struggles, each with their own special needs going unaddressed for the most part.  Poverty is a cycle that is destructive, not only to the welfare recipients and their families, but to the society at large.  Outrage is not going to solve it.  Insight will. 
Welfare in Florida
Welfare in Florida can add up to about $900-1000 a month! Add reduced rent to that, food stamps, reduced utility bills, and why would you want to work?

I am so sick and tired of driving by low-income apartments with satellite dishes in the front, high-end SUVs in the parking lot and big-screen TVs visible through the screen door.

So yes, welfare does pay!
Isn't the poor the ones that get the welfare now?
So what's your complaint? You think they need more? Fine, give them everything you have and we'll call it a day!


Welfare was initiated for those that

needed a little bit of help at a rough time in their lives. It was not intended to cover those who have teeny excuses as to why they can't (won't) work. I see it in our community. Projects with gas guzzler newer cars than mine.


I drive a ྙ Buick LeSabre when hubby doesn't work.  We bought that car for "free"; i.e., a friend gave us a calender for Christmas with daily numbers on it. On December 29, 2 days after my car died, our number came up and we won $100. The car cost exactly $100, blown engine, so we took the engine from my car that would not pass inspection and placed it in the $100 (free) car. We made a profit because I found $.03 cents when cleaning out the car. LOL


If I can live with a car like this, why can't they?  They buy brand new or next to new. My car has 150,000 miles on it and still going strong. The engine only had 84,000 miles on it, so it will live a little longer. In the meantime, we're looking for another decent deal just in case. Do they? No, they get a new car every couple years.


What I'm trying to say is that they shouldn't be in government-subsided housing if they can afford a new car or a car that is only a couple years old. You didn't see that years ago. They drove what I'm driving now. 


I think people on welfare should
Same with any unemployed person receiving government assistance.
There is welfare and wick.

.


No fair for the welfare
well, my husband was laid off the 1st of the year. We lost our insurance. I am in between chemo treatments (last one in October) and his unemployment will not cover the mortgage and COBRA. So, a major hospital is pulling strings to try to get me treatment. Am I going to refuse it? No. Call it welfare, call me lazy. I don't give a rats. You need to research all this welfare crap before you spout off about it. A very, very small portion of your tax dollars go to pay for the indigent (lazy). I know. I went into social work. It is political propaganda to get people riled up. So easily manipulated...........sigh
They HAVE to supplement that welfare with something.....
I had to go on welfare when my kids were little (husband took off after he was arrested for pounding on me) and it was HORRIBLE. That was in the late 80s. I sure would like to know what their secret is, because it was a death scrabble for me and that's BEFORE welfare reform was implemented (now it's even harder). It's called temporary for a reason - you get cut off for at least 3 months out of the year - how do they manage? They must have a meth lab in the basement......
You need to research Welfare a little bit better......
It was W who gave the banks all those billions with no oversight. It is the same old song and dance about welfare recipients - which the numbers on the roles had dropped by more than half since Clinton instituted the welfare reform. Just about 12% of our tax dollars goes to welfare programs - not very much in the big scheme of things. The recipients have to work for that money (didja know that?). For a family of 3 they get $445 per month and the adults have to work 40 hours for that money. Then, they are cut off for 3 months out of the year (an incentive to go to school or get a job which is MANDATORY). So, keep crying about all those sucking off the titt of America. I think they should end the earned income credit on our tax returns - that's Welfare for the working. If they don't make enough money, too bad. Right?
How did you get anti-welfare out of any of this?
nm
Welfare and the near death experience

I studied social work and worked at children services. Welfare amounts to $115 a month for an adult which said adult has to work 40 hours for (at least in my state - Ohio). If you have small children - you do not have to work the 40 hours until they are in school. You do get food stamps. Some live in "projects" with reduced rent. You might qualify for home heating assistance in the winter (most times it will not cover the entire bill). If you get on a percentage of income plan on your electric - you still have to pay the whole bill at some point in time - it just keeps adding up. Welfare accounts for less than 15% of the income taxes we pay, politicians would like you to think it is a lot more. Welfare is no picnic - it sux. The mentally ill who are homeless cannot collect any type of benefits as they have no address (smart guy, that Reagan). If we wish to be a "community" then we must extend a helping hand to those who are less unfortunate than the rest of us.


A high-profile, corporate take-over attorney had the good life and was ruthless in his job and did it very well. Every day he had to step over this wino lying on a heat vent on the sidewalk when he walked to his office. He despised that wino. Freakin' bum. One day that attorney had a massive heart attack. He almost didn't make it. He claimed to have had a near death experience in which he was told by Jesus that the bum he stepped over every day had chosen that as his lot in life before birth so as to teach the attorney some humility and compassion. The attorney never forgot this "dream" when he recovered from his heart attack. He devoted the rest of his life advocating for the poor and walked away from all the trappings of his "elitist" life. True story - cannot validate it at this moment.


Maybe this will help - From Capitalism to a Welfare State
COMMUNIST: A person who is regarded as supporting politically leftist or subversive causes.

CAPITALISM: An economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth. (This is one of the 'foundations of our economy' that McCain refers to and Obama mocks.)

SOCIALISM: The stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

COLLECTIVISM: The political principle of centralized social and economic control, esp. of all means of production.

COMMUNISM: A theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state. (Such as global redistribution of weath, and socialized medicine.)

WELFARE STATE: A state in which the welfare of the people in such matters as social security, health and education, housing, and working conditions is the responsibility of the government.

MARXISM: The system of economic and political thought developed by Karl Marx, along with Friedrich Engels, esp. the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society.

PROLETARIAT: The working class; the class of workers, esp. industrial wage earners, who do not possess capital or property and must sell their labor to survive.
That's the kind of welfare the pubs
fu
so if you don't have voicemail, you are a democrat and on welfare?
x
I have never seen welfare based on your color -
Where would you live that welfare would be based on your color? That seems like a crock to me!