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The courts aren't allowing it - the

Posted By: sm on 2008-12-08
In Reply to: O has already provided valid evidence and - the courts should not allow.....sm

REPUBLICAN leaning Supreme Court denied this today, so hopefully the ones clinging to this nonsense will open their eyes and see that it was baseless all along.


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Duh!!! You know what else courts aren't keen on? TAZERING CHILDREN!
xx
Allowing us to choose

which charities to support gives us too much control.  Much better for government to grab our money and distribute it ''fairly'' to causes and individuals we would never approve of on our own.  It goes right along with plans to eliminate individual choice in health care, eliminate school vouchers, bailouts, millions to ACORN, proposed limitations on first and second amendment rights.


Do you remember Peter Falk as Columbo?  ''Oh, and just one more thing....''  In an interview, Falk said that being investigated by Columbo was ''like being nibbled to death by ducks.''  Pretty good analogy to what's happening in our government.


I blame the Catholic church for allowing this to go on for so very long. SM

I have a lot of conservative friends and I seriously doubt they would condone this.   I knew there was a reason I stayed away from these boards.   As the poster above said, your post came up in a headline or I would never have come here.  


Involving is one thing....not allowing them to make up their own minds...
is quite another. Called indoctrination. It worked on you, I have to admit.
House Passes Bill Allowing Government-Funded Religious Discrimination
House Passes Bill Allowing Government-Funded Religious Discrimination


Immediate Release


The Interfaith Alliance


September 22, 2005


Contact: Jon Niven or Don Parker 202.639.6370


House Passes Bill Allowing Government-Funded Religious Discrimination


Washington, September 22 Today, The U.S. House of Representatives passed an amendment and a bill to allow government-funded religious discrimination


The School Readiness Act (H.R. 2123), a bipartisan bill to reauthorize the Head Start program, was passed 48-0 in committee. However, during floor debate Thursday, Rep. Charles Boustany Jr. (R-LA) added an amendment allowing Head Start providers to exercise religious discrimination in choosing teachers and volunteers. As a result, the final vote on the bill (231-184) was stripped of the unanimous, bipartisan support displayed in committee.


The Interfaith Alliance is very disappointed in the members of Congress who insist on reacting to one crisis by beginning another one, said the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy, President of The Interfaith Alliance. The Boustany amendment is a prime example of political opportunists taking advantage of a national tragedy to institute policies that are unconstitutional and have been previously rejected by the Congress.


The Interfaith Alliance was joined by more than 50 organizations in opposition to the bill's passage if it contained the Boustany amendment. The National Head Start Association, which represents more than 2.5 million children and families, program staff and volunteers that comprise the Head Start and Early Head Start community, came out against the entire bill if the Boustany Amendment was attached saying:


In spite of its positive provisions, if HR 2123 contains a religious discrimination amendment, we must reluctantly oppose the bill.


This amendment will subsidize religious discrimination with tax dollars, turning back civil rights protections that currently apply to nearly 200,000 Head Start teachers and over 1.4 million parent volunteers.


In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the levees protecting religious liberty are being breached, and the wall between church and state is cracking, Gaddy said. If those in Congress who seek to repeal religious liberty safeguards are successful, thousands of children, teachers and parent volunteers who have dedicated themselves to this program could find themselves no longer welcome at religiously-affiliated Head Start programs because they are of a different faith than the sponsoring organization.


The Senate passed a similar bill, but without the Boustany amendment, so the House version will now go to a House-Senate conference committee. Members of The Interfaith Alliance will urge Senators to strip the bill of the Boustany amendment in conference.


Initiated in 1965 in the wake of the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964, Head Start has been widely recognized as one of the most successful government programs ever created. It has provided early childhood education and development programs that have helped millions of low-income families overcome inequities for more than forty years.


No, it's not complete......still in the courts
Obama and hs lawyer have tried to get this entire thing dismissed but to no avail. I guess this judge can't be bought. We'll see.
So you say, but evidently the courts
I have a tendency to agree with them....so do an overwhelming majority of rational citizens who are just as disgusted as I am over the mental illness that is the driving force behind this lunacy.
It has been release, viewed by the courts
Sme people just want to live inside the lies they create...and often are not able to distinguish reality from fiction. Most children outgrow this but, on the other hand, some never do.
If they cannot get information from the courts, there is nothing to report!
nm
I love it...when the courts decide against liberals...
they are biased and wrong. When they decide for liberals...they are right on and good old boys. Can we just admit it...you don't care what the facts are. Conservatives are wrong and Bush is wrong...every time posting, every time opening mouth.

If Bush was a Democrat, we would not be having any of these discussions.

What a twisted value system. Twisted.
So if this is true, then just produce your BC to the courts, hmmm...




Is Barack Obama a U.S. citizen?"

Of course he is, dummy..

"But how do you know?"

Well for starters, he posted his birth certificate on his website. Not to mention, the Director of Health for the State of Hawaii released a statement saying he was born in Hawaii . Also, factcheck.org (a non-partisan and highly credible political fact checking website) investigated it heavily and validated, beyond doubt, that the birth certificate he posted was real. Did I mention that if there were an actual conspiracy surrounding this...it would have to be 47 years in the making? That's right, read it and weep: his birth announcement was posted in a Hawaii newspaper way back in 1961! But if you're really not sure, just remember there have been court cases challenging his citizenship, and every one of them was laughed off the docket.

"That's all pretty compelling. But I got this email that said...."

The email you got is just a crazy, internet-born rumor. It's nothing but a desperate attempt to discredit him. Trust me.

"Yeah, I'm sure you're right...."


Sound familiar? I've personally had a similar conversation several times, but mine ends differently.


"Well for starters, he posted his birth certificate on his website."

Really? Well humor me, because I think this is important enough for us to get our facts straight. So let's explore that. Hawaii doesn't issue "birth certificates". The state offers "Certificates of Live Birth" and "Certifications of Live Birth." What Barack Obama has posted on his website is a "Certification of Live Birth." So let's talk about the difference between the two documents. As you probably know, the document we commonly refer to as a "birth certificate" (more formally called a Certificate of Live Birth) is packed with detail. Detail like the hospital you were born in, the doctor who delivered you along with his/her signature, etc. It looks like a tax form with all the boxes and everything. The Certification of Live Birth is really just a snapshot of that. So which one is more credible? Which one does the state of Hawaii give the "last word" to? Based on information that existed long before this issue came up, let's take a look at one example of what the state of Hawaii has to say on it:

"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL." ( http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl ).

So if the state of Hawaii itself doesn't accept "Certifications of Live Birth" as a last leg of verification, it's safe to say there's a pretty solid distinction we too can make when comparing a Certificate to a Certification. What Barack Obama posted, was a Certification. What people want to see, is the Certificate. When you say he "posted his birth certificate" on his website, the truth (painful as it may be to hear) is that he posted a much different document that if accurately described, would be a "birth certification" - which is far less credible and far easier to alter.

"That's pretty lean. It's not really a big deal to me because I know it's just a rumor. But still, if you're going to insist there's a question here, I have to tell you....the state of Hawaii released a statement saying he was born in Hawaii . They have the 'Certificate' you're talking about, and they proved it was authentic. Are you saying they're in on this crazy conspiracy?"

I'm not saying they're involved in a conspiracy, or even that one exists. But I'm not sure you can honestly say you actually read that statement. Here, take a look:

Director of Health for the State of Hawaii , Chiyome Fukino: "There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama's official birth certificate. State law (Hawai'i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record. Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai'i."

Now you tell me, where in that statement does it say anything about where he was born? Public officials are very careful when they release these statements. They carve their words out precisely and check and double check to make sure what they release is accurate and viable. I have to be honest, it wasn't until this statement came out that I became more concerned by the citizenship question. If you actually read it, it's plain to see that as it relates to his birth, the statement really only "proves" 3 things: 1) Barack Obama was born, 2) proof of that birth exists on paper, and 3) their office is in receipt of that paper. An official statement with a lot of affirmatives about requirements and procedures means nothing if they can't find the words, "originating from Hawaii " or "was born in Honolulu " or "as documented in the Certification he has already released". Now maybe it was an accident that Dr. Fukino was able to authenticate virtually every scrap of it's existence - except the part everyone is asking about. However, pressed on this, there has been ample opportunity for her to revise or expand her statement, and she still to this day has not done so.

"Wait a minute, Hank. Didn't factcheck.org already investigate this whole thing. You're just grasping at straws. What do you know, that they don't?!"

I guess the first thing I'd tell you is that, on this particular subject, factcheck has already missed a lot of "facts", and even created a few of their own. You know that statement we just read from Hawaii 's Director of Health? Well this is what factcheck had to say about it: "Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu " ( http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html ). Did you see that in the statement? I didn't. If this site's only claim is to report facts in a non-partisan manner, how much credibility can we really give them when they start making up their own, very partisan and very inaccurate facts? They also failed to make the distinction between the Certificate and the Certification. And to be fair, factcheck.org is a product of the Annenberg Foundation. You may remember, Barack Obama worked for Annenberg as a spoke in their umbrella. If you look at the actual facts, this is a slight conflict of interest on factcheck.org's part - which might help to explain their not having met their own obligation of getting the facts right. An accident on their part? Maybe. But they too have had plenty of time to correct it, but chose instead to close the book on this one...fabricated facts and all.

"Look....if there was any truth to this, it would have meant that Barack's parents and a Hawaiian newspaper were in on it too. And they were in on it 47 years ago! There's a birth announcement in a Hawaiian newspaper for crying out loud."

Okay now this is one of my favorites. So now rather than authenticating citizenship by way of formal, long-form, vault copies of actual Certificates of Live Birth - we are relying on birth announcements in newspapers? Let me ask you something: If you and your wife live in Ohio , but you gave birth while visiting Florida , is there a legal or logical premise that says you're bound to put that birth announcement in a Floridian newspaper? Or, would you likely send news of the birth back home, to your town-of-residence, where more friends and family would see the good news? If Barack Obama was born outside of the U.S. , there doesn't have to be a "conspiracy" for his family to have sent word of that birth back to their hometown newspaper.

"Hmm. Okay. Well newsflash Hank. This has already been challenged in court and the judges dismissed it as frivolous and ridiculous."

Actually, this has been heard in a handful of courts. The judges by-in-large dismissed the cases, you're right. But the majorative reason was not merit, but rather standing. "Standing", as an act of dismissal in the courts, is a technicality. The judges said that individual citizens did not have standing to ask that the Constitution be upheld. This raises a pretty clear question: If "We The People" don't have standing to ask that the contract we hold with our government be upheld (ie the Constitution), who does? There are several other cases still pending; at least 12 confirmed. One of those is actually active on the Supreme Court's docket, as we speak. Another has been brought in California by 2008 candidate for the Presidency, Alan Keyes...and several of California 's electors (members of the electoral college who will officially vote our President in on December 15, 2008).

I don't think too many grounded people could say, "I know the answer." For instance, I am not saying Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen. I'm not saying he was born in Kenya . I'm not saying he renounced his U.S. citizenship when he moved to Indonesia and attended school there (a right reserved only to Indonesian citizens - in a country that didn't recognize any dual citizenship.) I'm not saying that due to his father's citizenship at a time when Kenya was still part of the British empire , Barack, as a son, was automatically and exclusively afforded British citizenship. I'm not saying the video footage of his Kenyan grandmother claiming to have been in the delivery room, in Kenya , when he was born, is necessarily "evidence." I'm also not saying he was born in Hawaii . What I'm saying is, none of us have these answers. I'm saying, there is an outstanding question here - that only Barack Obama can answer. And rather than answer it, having promised a new sense of transparency throughout his campaign, his course of action has been to spend time, money and the resources of at least 3 separate law firms....fighting to keep any and all documentation off the discovery table and out of the courtroom. It is a well known legal fact that if you have documentation/evidence that will help you - you are quick to produce it. If that documentation will hurt you, however, you fight to keep it out of court. Let's be fair. He was quick and happy to give documentation he claimed validated and authenticated his citizenship to a website - but is fighting to keep that same documentation out of the courts. If that document really does authenticate and validate everything, why not just hand it over? Why fight?

"Alright Hank. Well MY question is, if there was any validity to this, why isn't the media covering it?"

I have no idea.


As an Independent and initial Barack Obama supporter, I can safely say that contrary to what many think, asking these questions is not an attempt by Republicans to win a technicality-laden seat in the White House. Republicans lost. They were due the loss. Most know that. The seat will ultimately go to a Democrat. But if there is truth to Barack Obama not being able to formally prove his a) natural born, and/or b) properly maintained citizenship statuses - we as Americans must not gloss past it. If there is truth to it, this will represent the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American people and our most coveted process of democracy. If there is truth to it, this will demonstrate a wanton and relentless pursuit for power which left President-Elect Obama trapsing all over our Constitution - in pursuit of a position that ironically and foremost swears him to uphold and protect that same document.

There is much unanswered here. I know it is very embarassing for the Democratic party to have allowed what might be such an incredibly elementary oversight to occur - but nothing good that Barack Obama might do in the next 4-8 years, will be able to repair the damage done by setting a precedent that affords anyone in our Country the room and right to trample the contract "We The People" hold with our government, let alone a person who is asking to be our next President.

"Everyone will riot if they kick him out." We can't be intimidated by that. The people of our country elected a black man for the Presidency. Nothing can change that. If it turns out his entire campaign and effort were based on fraud, that reality is still 100% independent of the color-blind lenses our nation took to the polls. So if we bow down to the potential for race riots - recognizing that we did in fact (perhaps ignorantly relating to his eligibility) initially vote for him, we are only fostering a new evolution of racism that is nurtured by intimidation and complicit with failing to incite accountability over a man, people and process - simply based on color.

Very few people know any of this is even occurring. Those who do are greatly divided. Some are sure Barack Obama has acted fraudulently, some are sure he hasn't. Neither group can be sure of anything though, until Barack Obama himself answers the question for us. We all show our "birth certificates" (Certificates of Live Birth) several times over the course of our lives. Why should someone running for the Presidency be an exeption to that expectation, or even a more fiercely vetted recipient of it? More questionably, how can we as a government, media and nation - allow someone running for the Presidency to be an exception to that expectation?

The behavior, mostly (to my personal dismay) for his part, has only fueled speculation. Why factcheck.org? Why not a governing body like the Federal Election Commission, Board of Elections or even the DNC? When a governing body did finally inject itself in to this matter, why were they only able to do so vaguely...leaving the real question entirely untouched and unanswered? Why spend more than $800K fighting this in court, at a time when our nation is in economic crisis and that money could be better spent in far more charitable ways; when it could ultimately and universally be resolved for the small $12.00 fee required by Hawaii for a copy of the actual Certificate of Live Birth? In the spirit of transparency, why refuse to release this basic document for inspection? In the spirit of unity, why leave so many Americans alienated and debating the matter - when all most of them want is affirmation so that people on both sides of the debate can move to more healthy and productive lines of communication?

It was opinionated that he had left this door open prior to the election, so that those who opposed him would be led down a blind and pointless alley. The general election is over though. And still, he offers nothing to end the speculation.

By the time I am done with the conversation I outlined above, those I am speaking with inevitably return to what I have typically found to be their first and last refutation....

"He must have been properly vetted. Right....?"

I don't know. And without support for that contention coming directly from the Federal Election Commission, the Board of Elections or (ideally) Barack Obama himself, neither does anyone else.

"This is ridiculous" doesn't count as a refutation. Simply, answer the question with the simple documentation that is being asked of you in double digit numbers of court rooms across the country, including the Supreme Court. It may go away. It may be dismissed again based on standing. But President-Elect Obama's refusal to quell what have become very real questions about this, will only serve to leave many good Americans who hope to vigorously support their President...with far too much doubt to be able to do so. Production of a Certificate of Live Birth is a very small price to pay for unity.



There is a difference between courts agreeing and denying based on standing...


also, courts ruled the draft was not forced servitude in Butler v. Perry. nm
x
So Christians aren't supposed to political? Or we aren't supposed to let our morality, faith

our conscience guide us politically?


I'm sorry, that is a separation I cannot make.  My faith and religious convictions are part of the whole person that I am.  I vote my conscience.  I want political leaders who reflect my morality.  I also happen to believe there are many Christians out there like me.  There is no "separation" of church and state for me, which by the way was a concept (nowhere specifically mentioned in the constitution) meant to protect the church from the government more so than the government from the church.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with that commercial.  There are condom commercials, "personal" lubricant commercials, and penis and sexual performance enhancing commercials -- why would anyone be offended by a pro-life commercial?  The fact that anyone would be offended is a testament to just how twisted society has become!


Probably because there aren't

nearly as many of them.  And I noticed the tally keeper yesterday was only tallying those posts she wanted to count.  Sound like politics?


As for rabid, thanks for the enlightenment but the definition I prefer is 1 a: extremely violent : furious b: going to extreme lengths in expressing or pursuing a feeling, interest, or opinion <rabid editorials> <a rabid supporter>


CERTAINLY NOT:


2: affected with rabies


Well, though, I would hope none of the "rabid" Republicans (or Democrats) are "affected with rabies" but hey, maybe that's something to ponder.  After all, rabies does affect the brain. LOL


aren't

YOU special . . .


 


They aren't done yet. This is just day 1 of

cutting the pork. Let's wait and see what they will do by Friday.


My calculator doesn't go that high for adding up the pork they want to cut, but I think it's more than 2%.


I will take a wait-and-see attitude with my finger on the "favorites" key to renounce them if they don't cut all the pork out.


no, they aren't.
I hate this discussion. Do you actually know any gay people? I doubt it or you would not think that way. Most people, regardless of their sexual orientation, are just trying to go about their business and live their own lives. There are always people making a big issue of something or another, whether gay or straight, and the gay population does not do so anymore than any other group. As is always the case, only those making an issue get the attention thus painting a whole population. If everyone would just keep their nose out of everyone else's business we would all be better off. Truly, another person's lifestyle is no one else's business unless it infringes on the rights of others.
Since we obviously aren't going to be able to have..(sm)

any meaningful conversation today, how about this?  Keep in mind he was one of the main ones going after Clinton for having an affair.  Hmmmm....


Top Republican resigns leadership post over affair


WASHINGTON (AFP) — Republican US Senator John Ensign has resigned his Senate leadership post one day after admitting to an extra-marital affair, the chamber's top Republican said in a statement Wednesday.


"He's accepted responsibility for his actions and apologized to his family and constituents. He offered, and I accepted, his resignation as chairman of the Policy Committee," said Republican Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell.


The post is the fourth-ranking leadership position among Senate Republicans.


Ensign, a rising star of the Republican Party regarded as a possible contender in the 2012 presidential election, admitted to the affair at a news conference Tuesday in his home state of Nevada.


Ensign, 51, a staunch conservative with a record of strong family-values stances, vowed to remain in office after describing the affair as "absolutely the worst thing I've ever done in my life." 


 


Nope we aren't

you can believe that but it just ain't so...


You aren't serious, surely. SM
This is the man who told the biggest lie of all time, i.e., the lie that launched the Vietnam War.  HIs presidency was filled with graft and collusion.  You can't be serious!
We aren't going to be THAT lucky.
Ignorance is, for whatever reason, simply not knowing something.

Like not knowing how the Downing Street memos have made your leader out to be a liar.

Like not knowing the history of our relationship to Iraq so you can make a coherent judgment about what is going on there now, and why.

Like not knowing that Bush tax cuts and budget deficits are strangling and endangering the country even worse than Reagan had a chance to do.

You know, stuff like that. Now there is plain and simple ignorance, where people just aren't exposed to the facts and so just don't know about them. Then there is also totally willful ignorance where people have every opportunity to see and understand the facts but simply refuse to do so. That's real ignorance of the kind you were probably referring to.
Going under fast, aren't they.
Starting to sound a mite peeved:) Look, person - we KNOW some people support this screw-up of a profiteering war. Like you. What don't you get about that? WE KNOW.

Now, tell us YOU KNOW that just as many - to judge by the 300,000 versus the 300, ONE HUNDRED times as many DO NOT support this mess any longer.

Why do you seem to feel that people who agree with you are somehow PROOF that yours is the only way to think? What are you going to do about the REST of those who do not believe what you do? What are you going to do when soldiers are speaking 100,000 to 1 against the war? You better think about it, because it's shaping up that way.
But you're asking for it, aren't you?

How many other boards do you go on and play devil's advocate?  Do you go on the Christianity board and give the atheist's point of view?  Do you go in the smoker's sections and preach quitting?  Do you go to bars and brag that you're a teetotaler?  How popular do you expect to be when you go to where people are happily doing their thing and start messing with them?  You're mainly here to make trouble, IMHO.  So when some of it comes back on you, stop whining!


Aren't you the one who WANTS states

I don't mean for that to sound rude, just an honest question.  I seem to remember you saying you wanted more power to go to individual states, so do you agree with the states having control in this case?  I appreciate the information and will check it out.  I already know my state's income eligibility requirements and will post them below if anyone is curious.  I found them at mt.gov.


For Montana:

































2007 CHIP Income Chart
Effective July 1, 2007
*Annual Adjusted Gross Income (before taxes)


Household Size
(Children and Adults)

Household Income

Family of 2

$23,958

Family of 3

$30,048

Family of 4

$36,138

Family of 5

$42,228

Family of 6

$48,318

Family of 7

$54,408

Family of 8

$60,498

Some employment-related and child care deductions apply.
These guidelines are effective July 1, 2007.
Income guidelines may increase in 2008.
* If a child qualifies for Medicaid, health insurance will be provided by Medicaid.


Well aren't you just special then.
xx
Well, since she didn't and you aren't....
what is the point of this post other than looking down your nose and making moral judgments?
Your aren't running for VP and won't be
McCain camp made such as issue about Obama's lack of foreign travel, boasting about how many times he had been overseas to visit the troops, and claiming that made him a more viable foreign policy candidate. He openly challenged Obama to make his trip overseas, gleefully hoping that Obama would end up looking like a rookie. Obama responded in kind, met with world leaders, garnered open support from Iraq's president and turned out 250,000 Berliners for his speech. Not too shabby for a rookie. So, if there was so much flap over Obama's not having been overseas and how that made him inexperienced, what does it say about his VP pick, who applied for a passport last year? McCain can't have it both ways. This issue is being raised to point out McCain double standards.
You aren't too bright, are you?
No message
Are you sure you aren't talking about

Barrack Obama.....uh....and....uh...his....uh....ability...uh....to pause.....uh....because that....uh....teleprompter....uh....isn't telling...uh....him what to....uh....say.  You cut SP down for issues that can be said of Barry Obama.  The biggest difference is that Obama is running for president.  SP is running for VP. 


And your precious ones aren't, am I right?
nm
Ah, duh.........those aren't the news ones yet!!
xx
Aren't you supposed to be
working right now for the worst Transcriptionist company in the world, MQ/Cbay? Get back to work and spare us your opinion.
Aren't you lucky? PA Not only do we have

both candidates run a commercial every break, but also local politicians bombarding the airways.


I live in a county that receives TV from 4 different legislative districts and it's absolutely sickening.


If you aren't going to bother
to look for the information to back that up then why bother bringing it up? 
And I appreciate the fact that you aren't
I am also voting for McCain for all the reasons already stated. I have to admit I was undecided at the very beginning. Obama is obviously very intelligent and an eloquent speaker, but it's the stuff that started coming out of his mouth that disturbed me, especially share the wealth. Also his past associations scare me. And I hope people are paying attention.
(I jokingly tell me kids to watch who they hang out with now in case they ever decide to run for office, but it's the truth...it can definitely come back to haunt you!)
I am shocking aren't I?? LOL s/m
Thank you for your voice of reason!  That's what I've been trying to say.  We need to make our voices heard.  I for one think the Constitution has done just fine the way it is and I intend to keep making my voice heard.  I daresay that the idjits in Washington, whoever reads them, groans when they see my email and I'm on a first name basis with both our Senator and Representative and I imagine they don't like me much since I never agree with what they do, 1 Republican, 1 Democrat!!!!!!
Those of us that aren't black could
never understand in a million years what this election to means to many black people.  Just 40 years ago, they could not even vote.  Obama never referred to himself as being akin to MLK -- that tag was put on him by others as a standard for the few black people in our society that have been held up as examples of what any human being can accomplish if given the opportunity.  I ask you, if you or your ancestors (blacks, Jews, etc.) had been held in slavery for hundreds or thousand of years, being treated as non-humans, would you not consider it a victory to finally be recognized as an equal?  Get over your self-righteous indignation and accept it for what it is -- a progressive step forward long overdue.
They aren't dems now, that is for sure nm
nm
Well, aren't you pleasant?!
NM
Well, looks like the automakers aren't

going to get their bailout. It's on Meet the Press. They say "let 'em file bankruptcy." Michigan Senator Levin is fighting for it. "GM now produces more models getting 30 mpg than any other car maker. Things have changed if only people would recognize it. No other country would allow their car industry to die."


They want top management to go. GM top manager says he will not resign.


Senator Shelby is totally against it. He thinks it's a waste of taxpayer money and just postponing the inevitable.


$200 billion in lost taxes according to Senator Levin.


A banrkupcy filing could cost the economy $175 billion in the FIRST year and bankrupcies could take years to unravel, according to a reporter in one of the newspapers (couldn't catch the name).


See Thomas Friedman article on Wednesday in the NY Times for more on not bailing them out.


 


They aren't going to set them free here.
They are going to be asking, "you want fries with that" the next time you cruise through the drive-thru. For crying out loud.

Yes, I think that they should close Gitmo and move the prisoners to U.S. soil. They are our prisoners after all. Then they should all get FAIR trials instead of rigged hearings. There is a federal penitentiary in my state. I would have no problem with them being relocated here.

I guess you are going to freak out when the prisoners found either not guilty or found innocent come here to live because they will not be allowed back in their native country or the country they were living in at the time of their capture. Maybe they will be asking if you want fries after all.

They aren't saying questioning
Obama because if things fail, they will still blame Bush.  That is their plan.  If they totally screw this country up worse than it already is, they will say that this was all unavoidable because of the stupid stuff Bush did.  They will not take responsibility for anything.  That is why we still have crooks like Nancy Pelosi in office and Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, etc.  We have crooks like Geithner running the IRS now.  Obama's own aunt is here illegally.  There are different sets of rules for politicians obviously and even more so when it comes to dems and pubs. The dems ridicule Bush and turn around and so something ignorant and still blame it on Bush.   
Why aren't you complaining that...

...we are spending 10 BILLION DOLLARS a MONTH for a fake war in Iraq?


Why aren't you complaining that Bush gave his "hungover" buddies on Wall Street a few hundred billion to play with, without any accountability whatsoever (and Wall Street is still whining for more)?


Aren't you sweet.
Did Liberals Cause the Sub-Prime Crisis?

Conservatives blame the housing crisis on a 1977 law that helps-low income people get mortgages. It's a useful story for them, but it isn't true.


Robert Gordon | April 7, 2008 | web only



The idea started on the outer precincts of the right. Thomas DiLorenzo, an economist who calls Ron Paul "the Jefferson of our time," wrote in September that the housing crisis is "the direct result of thirty years of government policy that has forced banks to make bad loans to un-creditworthy borrowers." The policy DiLorenzo decries is the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act, which requires banks to lend throughout the communities they serve.

The Blame-CRA theme bounced around the right-wing Freerepublic.com. In January it figured in a Washington Times column. In February, a Cato Institute affiliate named Stan Liebowitz picked up the critique in a New York Post op-ed headlined "The Real Scandal: How the Feds Invented the Mortgage Mess." On The National Review's blog, The Corner, John Derbyshire channeled Liebowitz: "The folk losing their homes? are victims not of 'predatory lenders,' but of government-sponsored -- in fact government-mandated -- political correctness."

Last week, a more careful expression of the idea hit The Washington Post, in an article on former Sen. Phil Gramm's influence over John McCain. While two progressive economists were quoted criticizing Gramm's insistent opposition to government regulation, the Brookings Institution's Robert Litan offered an opposing perspective. Litan suggested that the 1990s enhancement of CRA, which was achieved over Gramm's fierce opposition, may have contributed to the current crisis. "If the CRA had not been so aggressively pushed," Litan said, "it is conceivable things would not be quite as bad. People have to be honest about that."

This is classic rhetoric of conservative reaction. (For fans of welfare policy, it is Charles Murray meets the mortgage mess.) Most analysts see the sub-prime crisis as a market failure. Believing the bubble would never pop, lenders approved risky adjustable-rate mortgages, often without considering whether borrowers could afford them; families took on those loans; investors bought them in securitized form; and, all the while, regulators sat on their hands.

The revisionists say the problem wasn't too little regulation; but too much, via CRA. The law was enacted in response to both intentional redlining and structural barriers to credit for low-income communities. CRA applies only to banks and thrifts that are federally insured; it's conceived as a quid pro quo for that privilege, among others. This means the law doesn't apply to independent mortgage companies (or payday lenders, check-cashers, etc.)

The law imposes on the covered depositories an affirmative duty to lend throughout the areas from which they take deposits, including poor neighborhoods. The law has teeth because regulators' ratings of banks' CRA performance become public and inform important decisions, notably merger approvals. Studies by the Federal Reserve and Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies, among others, have shown that CRA increased lending and homeownership in poor communities without undermining banks' profitability.

But CRA has always had critics, and they now suggest that the law went too far in encouraging banks to lend in struggling communities. Rhetoric aside, the argument turns on a simple question: In the current mortgage meltdown, did lenders approve bad loans to comply with CRA, or to make money?

The evidence strongly suggests the latter. First, consider timing. CRA was enacted in 1977. The sub-prime lending at the heart of the current crisis exploded a full quarter century later. In the mid-1990s, new CRA regulations and a wave of mergers led to a flurry of CRA activity, but, as noted by the New America Foundation's Ellen Seidman (and by Harvard's Joint Center), that activity "largely came to an end by 2001." In late 2004, the Bush administration announced plans to sharply weaken CRA regulations, pulling small and mid-sized banks out from under the law's toughest standards. Yet sub-prime lending continued, and even intensified -- at the very time when activity under CRA had slowed and the law had weakened.

Second, it is hard to blame CRA for the mortgage meltdown when CRA doesn't even apply to most of the loans that are behind it. As the University of Michigan's Michael Barr points out, half of sub-prime loans came from those mortgage companies beyond the reach of CRA. A further 25 to 30 percent came from bank subsidiaries and affiliates, which come under CRA to varying degrees but not as fully as banks themselves. (With affiliates, banks can choose whether to count the loans.) Perhaps one in four sub-prime loans were made by the institutions fully governed by CRA.

Most important, the lenders subject to CRA have engaged in less, not more, of the most dangerous lending. Janet Yellen, president of the San Francisco Federal Reserve, offers the killer statistic: Independent mortgage companies, which are not covered by CRA, made high-priced loans at more than twice the rate of the banks and thrifts. With this in mind, Yellen specifically rejects the "tendency to conflate the current problems in the sub-prime market with CRA-motivated lending.? CRA, Yellen says, "has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households."

Yellen is hardly alone in concluding that the real problems came from the institutions beyond the reach of CRA. One of the only regulators who long ago saw the current crisis coming was the late Ned Gramlich, a former Fed governor. While Alan Greenspan was cheering the sub-prime boom, Gramlich warned of its risks and unsuccessfully pushed for greater supervision of bank affiliates. But Gramlich praised CRA, saying last year, "banks have made many low- and moderate-income mortgages to fulfill their CRA obligations, they have found default rates pleasantly low, and they generally charge low mortgages rates. Thirty years later, CRA has become very good business."

It's telling that, amid all the recent recriminations, even lenders have not fingered CRA. That's because CRA didn't bring about the reckless lending at the heart of the crisis. Just as sub-prime lending was exploding, CRA was losing force and relevance. And the worst offenders, the independent mortgage companies, were never subject to CRA -- or any federal regulator. Law didn't make them lend. The profit motive did.

And that is not political correctness. It is correctness.

A little touchy, aren't we?
I never said anything about Christianity. All I did was provide the definition of a cult. However, if the shoe fits, wear it!
Hypocritical, aren't you? Because you would
nm
Touchy, aren't we.....LOL (sm)

I do plenty of reading, thank you very much.  However, at this point scientific reports supporting or not supporting the idea of global warming are a dime a dozen.  And why is that?  Exactly why do we not have as you would say one definitive voice either giving validity to or negating claims of the human footprint?  Perhaps this topic hasn't had the funding lately (I'd say for about the last 8 years) that it deserves?  And why is that?  Because there's still money to be made in oil. 


The one thing you can't deny is the fact that the earth's temperature is rising.  We can dispute the impact that humans have had on the rate of this warming, but that doesn't change the fact that it is warming.  Assuming you have done your share of reading as well, you should know that the polar ice caps are at this moment melting and sea levels are rising.  Yes, they've been doing this for a long time, but now the effect is exponential.  Hmmm....wonder what happened there...


So, regardless of how global warming came about (which is the true argument), why wouldn't we want to try to do something about it? 


Tell me, what do you think will happen when the ice caps are gone?  (And yes, they are definitely melting....look it up.)  What do you think will happen when the CO2 buildup gets to the point of suffocation?  (Yep, that's been documented as well.)  Or maybe that's just not important to you.  Maybe God will just appear and it will all go away?  Or maybe you pray to a different god....perhaps the one that lives in your wallet?


The society that does not explore progressive thinking is the society that is oblivious to the dangers ahead.


So why aren't you protesting...(sm)
cap and trade instead of taxes?  It sounds to me like you're a little confused.  BTW, Obama has already recognized potential problems with cap and trade and has stated they will do something to offset those costs.
You are really sucked into that lie aren't you?
xx
A little sensitive, aren't you?
How is pointing out other things that are noted in the bible suddenly taking a dig at Christianity? You have no idea of my belief system, but apparently when you don't have a good response to a valid point, the debate tactic of choice is to cast aspersions upon the character of the other debater.

For the record, the aunt I mentioned was my father's brother's wife. Per the bible, my father should have married her.

Again, I ask, why should you be determined the arbitrer of normal? 100 years ago, the idea of women having any function outside the home was abnormal, a belief in part supported by the bible. 40 years ago, the mixing of races was viewed as abnormal, a belief supported in part by the bible.

Does 'natural' define normal? Homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom. Monogamy is seen much less in the 'natural order' of things...does that therefore make the notion of a lifetime union of 2 people abnormal? What does that do the whole concept of marriage?

'Normal' is an individual concept, and for almost everything that is defined is normal, there is a range that is still normal. Normal body temperature is 98.6, but there is a range around that which is still considered normal. Normal age for starting 1st grade is 6, but there is still a range around that which is still considered normal.

And frankly, I believe nestled somewhere in the bible which you seem to believe you should be ruled by, it says 'judge not lest you be judged', so slinging petty digs/insults, seems to be violating one of the tenets you claim to hold so dear.