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Faith in God is not an exclusive country club.

Posted By: There are many paths to His door. nm on 2008-11-09
In Reply to: It's My Way or the Highway - --- God ----

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    Lack of faith in Obama as leader of this country is
    xx
    Exclusive of anyone else with an...
    opinion.....Yep, that's the christian way.
    Exclusive: Dem Letter to Bush sm

    President George W. Bush
    The White House
    Washington, DC 20500



    Dear Mr. President:



    The start of the new Congress brings us opportunities to work together on the critical issues confronting our country. No issue is more important than finding an end to the war in Iraq. December was the deadliest month of the war in over two years, pushing U.S. fatality figures over the 3,000 mark.



    The American people demonstrated in the November elections that they do not believe your current Iraq policy will lead to success and that we need a change in direction for the sake of our troops and the Iraqi people. We understand that you are completing your post-election consultations on Iraq and are preparing to make a major address on your Iraq strategy to the American people next week.



    Clearly this address presents you with another opportunity to make a long overdue course correction. Despite the fact that our troops have been pushed to the breaking point and, in many cases, have already served multiple tours in Iraq, news reports suggest that you believe the solution to the civil war in Iraq is to require additional sacrifices from our troops and are therefore prepared to proceed with a substantial U.S. troop increase.



    Surging forces is a strategy that you have already tried and that has already failed. Like many current and former military leaders, we believe that trying again would be a serious mistake. They, like us, believe there is no purely military solution in Iraq. There is only a political solution. Adding more combat troops will only endanger more Americans and stretch our military to the breaking point for no strategic gain. And it would undermine our efforts to get the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own future. We are well past the point of more troops for Iraq.



    In a recent appearance before the Senate Armed Services Committee, General John Abizaid, our top commander for Iraq and the region, said the following when asked about whether he thought more troops would contribute to our chances for success in Iraq:



    I met with every divisional commander, General Casey, the Corps commander, General Dempsey. We all talked together. And I said, in your professional opinion, if we were to bring in more American troops now, does it add considerably to our ability to achieve success in Iraq? And they all said no. And the reason is, because we want the Iraqis to do more. It's easy for the Iraqis to rely upon to us do this work. I believe that more American forces prevent the Iraqis from doing more, from taking more responsibility for their own future.



    Rather than deploy additional forces to Iraq, we believe the way forward is to begin t he phased redeployment of our forces in the next four to six months, while shifting the principal mission of our forces there from combat to training, logistics, force protection and counter-terror. A renewed diplomatic strategy, both within the region and beyond, is also required to help the Iraqis agree to a sustainable political settlement. In short, it is time to begin to move our forces out of Iraq and make the Iraqi political leadership aware that our commitment is not open ended, that we cannot resolve their sectarian problems, and that only they can find the political resolution required to stabilize Iraq.



    Our troops and the American people have already sacrificed a great deal for the future of Iraq. After nearly four years of combat, tens of thousands of U.S. casualties, and over $300 billion dollars, it is time to bring the war to a close. We, therefore, strongly encourage you to reject any plans that call for our getting our troops any deeper into Iraq. We want to do everything we can to help Iraq succeed in the future but, like many of our senior military leaders, we do not believe that adding more U.S. combat troops contributes to success.



    We appreciate you taking these views into consideration.



    Sincerely,­­­­


    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid


    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi


    Common decency is not exclusive to Christianity. (NM)
    xx
    I didn't talk down your faith but your faith
    Get over yourself already. He shows the kindness and tolerance of a true Christian and not all the hating and intolerance like you and a lot of people here. Just because you are a Christian doesn't make you any better than anyone else
    Sam has her own fan club!

    Ha ha to the "Sam haters!" 


    It's really something to watch how the lib media just doesn't know what to do with a woman who gave birth 5 times, still looks hot, can dress a moose, run a state, and basically laugh at their elitism.  They never will get it, ya know?


    The military is not a kid club. sm

    Drinking age and fighting is an old and worn out reasoning. Besides, they get all the alcohol they want.   What are we supposed to do with men and women who choose to join the military.  Put it in writing that they will never have to go to war?  And where was the left's outrage when Clinton sent men and women into his little skirmishes.  I never heard a word then.  Never saw one leftie holding a sign that said NO MORE MOGADISHUs.  In fact, the left hardly even mentions it.  Why is that exactly?


    Is this the host of the 700 club?
    x
    I believe him too, but it's "Country CLUB First" sm...
    Seriously people. McCain is worth *100 million dollars,* is married to a beer heiress, and owns 9 homes. But you guys continue to insist that Obama is the elitist? ROFLMAO
    W's 22% fan club strikes again.
    Did you read the article? O was not mentioned once in it, but you do not hesitate to inject your O hate at every turn. Are you even capable of comment on the substance, or is your plan for the future to b*tch and moan for the net 4 years? If so, why would you expect anybody to take what you have to say seriously?

    Why not try defending W's support of these decidedly un-American precepts? Oh, maybe because it's indefensible and the only thing you know how to do is lash out at somebody who had nothing to do with it? I think I got it.


    Where did you go the club, out on Bankhead?
    Any person with any sense knows how to pick and choose what section of town they go in. I doubt the black females in town are scared of you. I have traveled in both white and black communities and never faced what you talk about. When you assume you are usually wrong- probably in this case also for you. What a crock.
    member of the sane club
    I am a member of the sane hate shrub club, a member of the we know shrub lies about everything club and is destroying america and our standing in the world club.
    This is what passes for clarification in W's 22% fan club?
    That apples and oranges line of thinking does not compute (life in the US, Russia or Cuba). My brain cells do not connect along those same pathways. Let's try some logic.

    Since we don't know what it going to be like (your words, not mine) under O, one can only speculate. Knock yourself out on that one. I'm not into that. Bush, however, has had his debut, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th acts. The curtain is coming down and we have concrete evidence on which to base our individual takes on his regime. There is reliable data available (approval ratings, whose better off now than in 2000, the state of our economy, our standing in the world, etc) which suggests that for many of us, W has managed to single-handedly turn our country into something we can barely recognize. The hatchet job he and his buddies did early on with the Constitution is all the evidence I need to feel justified in my absolute contempt for the man and his legacy, not to mention the fact that pretty much nothing he has done has even begun to address the problems we face with terrorism on the international front and the economy, health care, the environment, etc on the home front. The decider to some, the destroyer to others.
    But that's my point, the military HAS turned into a kid club...
    For the most part.  The recruiters prey on high school kids.  Let's take a poll out there of how many of you were capable of making truly wise life-impacting decisions at age 17 and 18?  I sure wasn't and my kids certainly weren't able to.  Deciding on college, maybe.  Deciding to party, most certainly.  And the problem with the military is that it is advertised as a ticket to education and world-travel, the recruiters don't advertise it as a one-way ticket to an immoral war.  And as you know, it is extremely hard to "quit" the military if there is a change of heart...... 
    I'm a HATER, alright. I hate the ol' boy's club

    So did you get the complete roster when you joined the club?


    Join the club - apparently I'm a 'bible-thumping christianist' lol
    But you do have a good plan.

    Let's all wait until after the damage is done before we try to inform ourselves about an issue.

    Yeah. Real good plan.
    No. I love the country side in Alabama...I'm a country girl...nm

    Yes killing this country - have you been out of the country the last 3 months or so
    Don't you have a clue as to what is happening in America? Where have you been? Don't you listen to what is happening or are you still drinking the kool-aid. That time is over. Put the aid down and wake up. The country is being destroyed. These have been the worst 4 months in the history of bad presidents. Foreclosures are on the rise, unemployment is on the rise, 3+ trillion more in deficit and on the rise, companies shutting down, Clinton for SoS. Napolitano - one of the biggest tragedies to happen to America. The list goes on and on and on and on.

    Dubya is not in office anymore. You think dubya "pulled the trigger", well the O keeps reloading it and continues to pull the trigger.
    Faith. sm
    There was a poster on this board not too long ago of the Jewish faith.  He was here to discuss the situation in Israel.  He was hounded from this board ruthlessly.  And not by conservatives.
    Faith
    I am not here to discuss Israel, just replying to an abortion post. I really don't care if I am hounded by anyone. Happens all the time :-)
    I have faith
    and am not ashamed to express it. Seems to me democrates place their hand on the bible just like rebublicans when taking the oath of office. Do you wonder about that too?
    I think it does but I do have faith there are

    good people out there too like you.  So thank you for saying that.  I tune in to CNN a lot of it has come up a few times that it matters.  It is just depressing to me that it does still matter.


    take care.


    Keep the faith. No one knows what is going,,,sm
    to happen with the economy or in the world over the next few months. At least we have a glimmer of hope with Obama.
    Got that right, but keep the faith.
    we can get through anything. We will come out in a much better place if we simply get our collective acts together and realize that change is coming (and I DON'T mean the campaign slogan) because it has to. WE have a choice. We can take charge of the situation and face those challenges as a united front or stay sidelined and wait for our leaders to show us the way. Clearly, I know which side of that decision I come down on.
    According to your faith...(sm)
    Christians were at one point persecuted, and they pushed and pushed until they got their way.  I guess it was okay to do that back then.
    Yes, I am very derogatory about faith. sm
    Thank you for noticing. Let me respond.

    You wrote:
    >>yet I think it takes much more "faith" in a ridiculous theory that a one-cell amoeba crawled out of a mucky ocean somewhere and through "evolution" became man. You can't "prove" that, scientists can't "prove" that, but you believe it...because somebody said and it wrote it down...sound like the Bible? lol. That too is "faith." >>

    Well, first of all you're mistaken. Scientists can prove evolution and have. The only people left still trying to deny evolution are doing so because it challenges or threatens their religious beliefs. For the rest of the world it's clear there is overwhelming evidence for biologic evolution and natural selection as the way that life developed and continues to develop (or become extinct...) on Earth. Please, read up on it. Fossils. Dinosaurs. It's facinating.

    Note that I'm not talking about the *origin* of life, about how it all get started. Neither science or religion can answer that question. Religion says God made everything but it doesn't answer the question of who or what made God. And evolution doesn't answer the question of how the universe and our planet came to exist in the first place, just how life evolved here on Earth. (Though I think it's entirely possible science will eventually be able to answer this question.)

    Second, what you wrote is not a valid arguement because religion and science are not on equal footing. They're two completely different things. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Let me give you a nice long quote from one of my favorite authors, Richard Dawkins (which should come as no surprise to you) because he explains it far more eloquently than I can:

    '(Religious) fundamentalists know they are right because they have read the truth in a holy book and they know, in advance, that nothing will budge them from their belief. The truth of the holy book is an axiom, not the end product of a process of reasoning. The book is true, and if the evidence seems to contradict it, it is the evidence that must be thrown out, not the book. By contrast, what I, as a scientist, believe (for example, evolution) I believe not because of reading a holy book but because I have studied the evidence. It really is a very different matter. Books about evolution are believed not because they are holy. They are believed because they present overwhelming quantities of mutually buttressed evidence. In principle, any reader can go and check that evidence. When a science book is wrong, somebody eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent books. That conspicuously doesn't happen with holy books.'

    Now to your next question:

    >>And I do not understand why you have to protest against something so strongly that you feel does not exist. Why would you bother? Why does someone having a life-changing experience bother you so much?>>

    The part that bothered me was not someone having a life-changing experience. What bothers me is religion. I should think that was clear. What irritated me was the comment made in the post about athiests. It was an opinion presented as fact. That irritated me enough to cause me to respond. (BTW, did you read the whole thread, or just that part? We were talking about the bible.)

    You also asked why I would bother to protest about something I don't believe exists. Are you kidding me? Look at the board we're on. It's a political board. I don't believe God exists, but religion sure does and I don't want its influence in our government. I don't have time to list all the reasons I have for protesting, but that's probably the biggest - the fact that I don't want to live in a theocracy. I don't want a president who believes God talks to him and tells him what to do, for example. I want religion to stay out of our goverment, at every level. This country is not only about freedom OF regligion, it's about freedom FROM religion.


    I SO agree and we are not of the same faith

    I do not think Chronicles is in my bible - I have to go check that....but regardless, I totally agree with you.  It says in my bible something like when chyt hits fan, it's gonna happen from the inside out.....this, to me, would be IT.  I'm so not voting for him......nothign really against him, per se, but he's saying he's gonna fix every single problem in the USA - well, our economy sux....so where is the money coming from?  Rhetorical question bears no answer - because it's going to come from us.  Another thing - he does not have the amount of experience (governmental and the rest of it) for me to be comfortable with him as president.  he ain't no JFK who came from a HUGE heavy background of experience(s).  No offense meant to anyone but personally, I hope he loses - and Michelle said a month ago or two, *we are only going to do this once, and if we don't win, we are not going through this again* - I'm so praying for that to occur.  y opinion, please no flames.....to each his/her own about who they want in office. 


    I'd prefer someone than anyone who was running for this....but that's not gonna happen, unfortunately!!


     


    We shall see. I never put much faith in blogs...
    but, perhaps those who go to Obama will be replaced by those who come to McCain from the other side. Sorry...nothing will dampen this for me today. :)
    I person of faith

    who pubically ridiculed the Bible in a speech. A man who has sketchy associations.  A man who attended a school in Indonesia were his school records list his religion as muslim and yet he denies ever being a muslim.  A man who allowed his children to be baptized and attend a church where the pastor preached hate messages.  A man who supports partial birth abortions......


    Please excuse me while I vomit!


    Isn't that what's known as 'blind faith'?
    *
    Blind faith.....
    In a way it is. I have faith that God is there for me. That doesn't mean things are sugar and honey all the time, because they're definitely not.

    Jesus ask of to just have the faith of a mustard seed. He is asking us to have no more faith than that of the size of a mustard seed, which is meniscule, and you will be surprised where that will take you. You know, we are asked to ask questions of God, to seek him, and ask Him to prove Himself. What better way for God to show us his love than to ask Him to prove himself?

    You might just see great things happen in your life.


    Having respect for faith all around?
    I do. Faith and religion, two different things. I respect everyone's right to pray. I just don't think it should be made into a political issue like it has been done on this board. If it was truly a prayer request, why wasn't it on the prayer request board and the faith board?
    I too do not put much faith in polls.
    Did these polls have John Kerry ahead at this time during the last election.  They also showed the Nixon was ahead of Kennedy.  We will find out when we find out.  Just go vote for who you think is best and hope for the best.
    Who put faith in what government?
    Who put faith in what government? I for one put NO faith in Bush from day one....he was a disastrous governor in the Lone Star, and I knew by the time he got finished with America and Americans, that we would barely be able to recognize it. You are right. The shrub did inherit at least something he should have been able to work with, but evidently it was beneath his pay grade to pay attention to such things since he had wars to wage.

    Obama wants to restore a little balance...another thing the shrub monkeyed around with...especially his notorious distain for judicial powers and addiction to executive privilege. We need to take out that generic "government" reference and replace it with republicans failed us. The more power they get, the more they will fail us. Voters get that now.

    Why are you lying? Obama wants stricter gun controls. He cannot take your precious guns away from you without a constitutional amendment. Defend yourselves against what? You really are a paranoid bunch, aren't you? Uh, oh....your argument just fell apart. So I ask again, can anybody explain Reagan's rambling incoherence?

    Oh ye of little faith. Go to the top of the page.
    nm
    Right. Why cant he have faith in the people rather
    nm
    THIS IS NOT THE FAITH BOARD.
    This is the POLITICS BOARD.
    And those of different faith are probably praying

    Everyone, regardless of their personal religious beliefs, is worshipping the "true" God, the one that is "true and living" to them.


    No religion is better or "truer" and more "living" than another. 


    Your creator is "true and living" to you.  Someone else's creator might be just as "true and living" to them.


    No, it's called faith
    and you really have to have an open mind for that. ;-)
    I actually don't really care what his faith is...
    and I don't care whether or not he carries on an 8 year tradition--that is between him and his God. What I don't understand is why the big announcement. If you don't care to do it, don't do it, but why make a big deal of announcing that you don't care to hold a prayer. It is almost as silly as making a big deal about eating at a burger joint.
    you are still placing faith in what you sm
    have done and not the finished work of Christ on the cross. You are not your own "god" which is where you are placing yourself. If you have not accepted Jesus as your Savior you will be told "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you."

    The "christian religions" that have rejected the teachings of he** will also be held to account. Again its not about religion but about salvation which is contained in the Bible, the Holy, innerrent word of God.

    I pray you reconsider.
    You don't know me or my faith - so don't assume
    And looks like the saying is true about people who assume things.
    Please see faith board....nm
    x
    You seem very derogatory about faith, my friend...
    yet I think it takes much more "faith" in a ridiculous theory that a one-cell amoeba crawled out of a mucky ocean somewhere and through "evolution" became man. You can't "prove" that, scientists can't "prove" that, but you believe it...because somebody said and it wrote it down...sound like the Bible? lol. That too is "faith."

    And I do not understand why you have to protest against something so strongly that you feel does not exist. Why would you bother? Why does someone having a life-changing experience bother you so much? You might want to examine where that comes from. Perhaps you are not as seated in your nonbelief as the poster is in her belief?

    Just asking.
    They are really kickin it up over there on the faith forum
    I am sure they would love to have you!
    Worship should be on the faith board
    Obama worship should go to the faith board - what part of that don't you understand - it's pretty clear. We have a faith board for worship talk.
    Probably because he never left his original faith
    but only stated he was Christian to acquire more votes.

    The people who leave that faith know the consequences and some live in fear the rest of his life.

    Never believe he changed to begin with.
    That is contradictory to what our faith teaches
    You are asking us to only follow part of our faith by keeping our "religion personal". That is contradictory of what our Lord told us to do, so now you are treading on my right to follow my Lord.

    Christianity is not a "blind faith". That just goes to show your lack of understanding. But since no matter what I say you will not concede to any points, this conversation has ceased to productive.
    You misunderstand the nature of faith.
    Faith (by which I mean true faith) is not a child's game, nor is it the idle pasttime of an adult.

    Anyone who comes to the point of faith will quickly discover that what he always thought about faith before was quite wrong.

    He will discover that the commandment to be child-like (trusting) has nothing to do with being childISH (silly) and, further, that trying to be child-like is the hardest thing he has ever done.

    He will discover that faith is in many ways simple, but rarely easy.

    He will discover that faith, far from amounting to ritualistically following a set of rules after the manner of a zombie or a slave, demands every bit of thinking ability he can muster.

    You seem to feel the need to belittle people of faith, and I can't help but wonder why? Your hostility doesn't harm them in the least, and only closes you off from opportunities for discovery about a very important part of life that I don't think you really know very much about. Perhaps, never having been to the Louvre, you would refrain from scoffing at those who have been there and can say something about it first-hand.
    Faith and blind loyalty are two different things
    You are looking down your nose at people who differ in their beliefs than you. If we have convictions based on our faith (many faiths including Jewish, Christian/Catholic & Muslim consider Israel to be holy territory) then who are you to belittle what we see happening such as fulfilling of propehcy etc.? Just because you don't believe what is happening there has any Biblical/Koranic basis does not make us wrong or loony or whatever. Your statements basically made fun of people of faith, and I don't think that is very tolerant of you.