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Read prior messages...

Posted By: Observer on 2005-08-27
In Reply to: Who said anything about waving guns around? sm - sm

Messages seem to say prepared = gun ownership/usage


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And if you read the previous messages
Nice try!
Not "bull". Read messages above to
nm
My point is that prior presidents have had their day..sm
and time when they were covered in mud and IMHO none of it is right, except to say in most cases the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

But, to answer Jeb's and Bush's family mishaps with the what about the Kennedy's line is dodging the point to me.

Bringing up the Lynch and Dean ordeal that's something worth listening to, but you guys just can't let go of old democratic presidents. It's like a thorn still sticking in your side. Everytime something comes up with Bush, you talk about Clinton, or even the Kennedy's, as if that dismisses Bush somehow. Whatever gets you though.
healthcare a problem prior to THIS war and they did
x
Re: "associations" -- you never answered a prior
Jes' curious............
I think one of his messages was GOP needs to
x
To answer this I would only repeat my prior statements..nm

Re: "Closing Time" - Was cut off in prior post; please see this one.

This didn't come through very well in my other post.  I'm hoping it's better in this one.  Sorry. 


Closing Time


Jim Kirwan
12-10-8








Since Reagan we've been trying to make "Trickle-Down economics" work: For those to whom promises were made, Trickle- Down has been, not just a failure but it has been the major vehicle responsible for the most massive redistribution of wealth, from the population that has worked toward something, to those that wanted everything. Never has there been such a near total transfer of wealth in the history of the planet. This criminal-conspiracy has done what it was created to do ­ and it must be terminated with extreme prejudice, immediately, if we are to survive.


When 'Trickle-Down' was the political-priority of the day, the high-point in prosperity was to become a 'Millionaire.' Forbes magazine tracked those lucky few very carefully. Today Forbes 500 no longer bothers with 'millionaires' because there are just far too many of them-they have become inconsequential. Thanks to "Trickle-Down economics today the heavy-hitters financially are 'Billionaires' and above: which is all you need to know about how well this hostile-takeover of the American economy has worked.


The problem that this transfer of wealth has created has resulted in the Federalization-of-Privatization: As a result we are all facing another huge round of trickle-down economics, but this time it's being cloaked in a series of stealth-protected measures. These new tactics are commonly called BAILOUT or RESCUE packages, and nothing about their origins or their purposes has been made clear to those of us that will be forced to pay tens of trillions for our own destruction.


What's happening is this: First they used compromised laws to squash diversity and opinion within the entire field of communications, under Clinton and Powell's kid that ran the FCC. Together, competition was eliminated and monstrous empires were created that absorbed their competition outright. Once this happened, the entire edifice for total information management was in-place, using household names to lie to the public every minute of every day, whether on television or in print-with very few exceptions. With that completed effort it was easy to move directly onto the openly fascist path to WAR on a variety of fronts, supported and applauded by the very organs that were supposed to question whatever government does, on behalf of the people, as part of their constitutionally protected-jobs as so-called journalists. With the constitution gone, and the only allegiance worthy of that name having become the private for-profit motives that greed and arrogance breeds; in the sewers of those ruined lives where these so-called leaders "live," the current outcome is all that we should have ever expected from these new-age barbarians. (1)


We're still in the Twilight Zone; where Obama is just another man waiting to start a job, except that he seemingly can't wait to begin so he formulates their plans and then rushes to the nearest podium to expound upon the glories of what these programs (or pogroms) are pointedly designed to do; for them and 'to' us. And the sheep wait patiently to board the trains that will take them to the slaughterhouse.


The larger picture has or course remained hidden from the general public. What continues to go unnoticed is the number of profligate cities and towns, not to mention states that will have to be bailed out by the feds. Once this begins to happen, 'the rights' of states will disappear completely along with any independence from the federal-government. Remember the formula upon which bailouts are based: The crucial money provided is conditioned upon a federal "ownership stake" in everything that needs the money, and when this is applied to the states then all they have left to trade with is their broken-economies and their people who shall both become the property of the federal government that is today a private-corporation that serves only the privately-owned central banks and by extension the multi-national corporations. This is about to happen now to several states, including California; the sixth largest economy in the world. (2)


'BTW the "corporation" mentioned above has been bankrupt since 1933, and the result of that bankruptcy is that the USA went into receivership to the privately-owned Federal Reserve. The Dictator was correct when he said: "The constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper," he was actually telling the truth. It was probably the only truthful statement he ever made in nearly eight years.


The owners have simply allowed us to believe we have a constitution. Every law, code and statute world wide is based on the Uniform Commercial Code and has been in place since 1950. Of course no one in a position of power ever bothered to mention this to us did they? One must understand the UCC to understand how and why so many have gotten away with so much: And now they are upping the ante, to take it all.'


This explains why every courtroom and every government building has flags hanging that really are not American flags even though they appear to be. Each of them has gold/yellow fringe around them. They give us smoke and mirrors that mask what they created, which allows them to continue to say 'we have a constitution and a democracy.' Of course America was created to be a constitutional republic, not a democracy. There is a huge difference between a democracy and a constitutional republic. The rights of the few and the many, can only be protected under a Republic, while under a democracy, the majority rules-absolutely.


There are however a few places that are still holding out against the one-world-order and the New Barbarians. Among these are Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, possibly Iran and certainly Greece.


"Socialist leader George Papandreou called for early elections, saying the conservative government could no longer defend the public from rioters.


The government has a single-seat majority in the 300-member Parliament and opposition parties blame hands-off policing for encouraging the worst rioting the country has seen in decades.


'The government cannot handle this crisis and has lost the trust of the Greek people,' Papandreou said. 'The best thing it can do is resign and let the people find a solution ... we will protect the public.'" (3)


If America is to survive then we must stop this wholesale giveaway of everything that was once part of this society. The relationship between profits and earnings must be freed from the stranglehold that management has created in order to siphon off all the profits and wreck the companies they work for. In addition, the idea that government can function in any capacity as a major stakeholder in any form of private enterprise beggars the imagination far beyond any real possibility for saving anything; except the criminals and their enterprises that created this "crisis" in the first place. The 'economy' must be based on a bottom-up profit motive, based on the real wages of those that create the wealth for those at the top - and not upon the insanity that it is now! People must come first, and the corporations must be controlled at every level by the public!


There is no longer anything like responsibility anywhere in government or the private sector to anything except what can continue to be stolen, either by flawed and fraudulent bailouts, or through the strong-arm tactics that are currently acting "under- cover of law" and that are neither legal nor functional. Obama in this venue is neither a savior, nor a friend to the people that supposedly 'elected' him-he is just the instrument of the new global-government engine designed to finish the job and to close down this nation, once and for all! Americans need to watch what happens in Greece and follow their example, if there is to be an America to fight over in the future.


In the meanwhile, here is some of what's happened here already.


"With the focus on privatization, public-private partnerships, (dismantling local control); anyone with any common sense about them can see that; incrementally the power of the people is being given over to corporate control through various venues. Once upon a time we were subjects, then citizens, and now consumers. Everything is for sale. TV 'programming' is set up to entice "consumers" through the 3000 daily ads to buy, buy, buy! Utilities-waste- nursing homes, and even the people's water (once in local control) is open to the highest bidder or those with the most influence. In "public private partnerships or privatization" (despite the lofty high pitch sales rhetoric) means only one thing, a plundering of the people's money. Profits take precedence over any and all health or environmental concerns. It's pigs at the trough time, locally- state wise and nationally. This is not just happening in one or two isolated places but across the nation. Because we are narrowly focused (many times only one newspaper) parochially; we have little to no idea of the larger picture and what is being set in place.


As I read of various happenings across the nation; I am struck with the usage of terms and language being introduced into the public arena; with no explanation as to their meaning (if any). I asked a state politician a few years back what this terminology we're hearing lately of, "regional or regionalization" meant? He brushed the whole thing aside as inconsequential and told me that is was of no importance. Obviously, for me, that was an unsatisfactory answer. Most especially, since on the local level, I could see that it meant a great deal. It appeared to me, that ever so insidiously, local control was gradually being usurped by "regional" control of unelected officials. Consultants (strangers) were replacing local people in places of city government (at lucrative salaries). The sense of community (calling city hall etc.) was being replaced by various business entities, having little to no attachment to the heartbeat of the people. How could they, being strangers, with no sense of native pride or concern? Words like "regional, stake holder, empowerment zones, enterprise committees, visioning councils, smart growth, sustainable development etc;" had replaced understandable language! I didn't imagine that the usage of these terms across the nation (if you look) meant "nothing"." (4)


It's 'Closing Time' America, because unless you begin to do more than just watch, this place won't even be a footnote to the ruin that is planned for these people and this place that once held so much promise for everyone.


kirwanstudios@sbcglobal.net



A search warrant under FISA prior to 9/11
As you can see from the article cited below, Holder did not have that evidence. He was not the only person responsible for "not allowing" the laptop contents search. Seems there was a problem with intelligence sharing between the US and France. His decision was also defended by the FBI director. Unless being able to predict the future is a qualification for the AG, it seems that you could find a better reason to be losing sleep.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/08/60II/main508362.shtml

Prior military wife myself - know how it works -
x
Perhaps you would prefer the "original" I got prior to my editing.....

The Little Red Hen called all of her Democrat neighbors together and said, 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to eat. Who will help me plant it?'



'Not I,' said the cow.



'Not I,' said the duck.



'Not I,' said the pig.



'Not I,' said the goose.



 



 



 



'Then I will do it by myself,' said the little red hen, and so she did. The wheat grew very tall and ripened into golden grain.



 



 



 



'Who will help me reap my wheat?' asked the little red hen.



 



 



 



'Not I,' said the duck..



'Out of my classification,' said the pig.



'I'd lose my seniority,' said the cow.



'I'd lose my unemployment compensation,' said the goose.



 



 



 



'Then I will do it by myself,' said the little red hen, and so she did.



 



 



 



At last it came time to bake the bread.



'Who will help me bake the bread?' asked the little red hen.



 



 



 



'That would be overtime for me,' said the cow.



 



 



 



'I'd lose my welfare benefits,' said the duck.



 



 



 



'I'm a dropout and never learned how,' said the pig.



 



 



 



'If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination,' said the goose.



 



 



 



'Then I will do it by myself,' said the little red hen.



 



 



 



She baked five loaves and held them up for all of her neighbors to see. They wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little red hen said, 'No, I shall eat all five loaves.'



 



 



 



'Excess profits!' cried the cow. (Nancy Pelosi)



 



 



 



'Capitalist leech!' screamed the duck. (Barbara Boxer)



 



 



 



'I demand equal rights!' yelled the goose. (Jesse Jackson)



 



 



 



The pig just grunted in disdain. (Ted Kennedy)



 



 



 



And they all painted 'Unfair!' picket signs and marched around and around the little red hen, shouting obscenities.



 



 



 



Then the farmer (Obama) came. He said to the little red hen, 'You must not be so greedy.'



 



 



 



'But I earned the bread,' said the little red hen.



'Exactly,' said Barack the farmer. 'That is what makes our free enterprise system so wonderful. Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our modern government regulations, the productive workers must divide the fruits of their labor with those who are lazy and idle.'



 



 



 



And they all lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who smiled and clucked, 'I am grateful, for now I truly understand.'



 



 



 



But her neighbors became quite disappointed in her. She never again baked bread because she joined the 'party' and got her bread free. And all the Democrats smiled. 'Fairness' had been established.



 



 



 



Individual initiative had died, but nobody noticed; perhaps no one cared...so long as there was free bread that 'the rich' were paying for.



 



 



 



EPILOGUE



 



 



 



Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs.



 



 



 



Hillary got $8 million for hers.



 



 



 



That's $20 million for the memories from two people, who for eight years, repeatedly testified, under oath, that they couldn't remember anything.



 



 



 



IS THIS A GREAT BARNYARD OR WHAT?


Judging by some of the prior town meetings

1.  Gimme a house.


2.  Make my boss pay me more (than I'm worth).


3.  Gimme.


4.  Gimme.


5.  Fix everything for me.


This is more the behavior of subjects toward a monarch than citizens toward a president.  Thanks, think I'll just stay home and improve my own life. 


 


In a prior post I made the following offer:

 


.....no amount of money would induce me to volunteer to be tortured (you know, beaten cut, burned - severe pain or harm).  But cut me a check (certified only, please) with a number followed by a whole lot of zeros and I would be waterboarded (strictly in the interest of science).  Our special forces are trained to withstand this and other 'harsh' interrigation techniques......  It's scary and unpleasant but way different from having your fingernails pulled out or a field generator and alligator clips used.


I had in mind more like $500,000, but yeah, for enough money I would certainly consider that an offer I couldn't refuse. 


 


why do you keep replying to your own messages
and the messages are too bizzare. First you answer this post by saying no rest for the wicked, then you answer that post by saying take the day off, then you answer that by saying cough, snort???? None of this makes sense. Are you losing it? Maybe you do need a day or two off (your words).

To answer this original post, first his name is John McCain. It would be a good idea to stick to his name and not the childish words that keep getting posted. I have never seen an independent or conservative say any other name except Obama. So if you go there then expect some posters to call him Obrother, Oliar, OmyGodNo, Oflipflopper, etc, etc. Yes, Bush attacked McCain when he was running for president. Same as Obama attacked Biden, Biden attacked Obama, Clinton attacked Obama and Biden, etc, etc. Everyone attacks everyone during primaries. At least McCain didn't pick one of the other running mates from the primaries. Obama did. Obama promises change he gives us the same. Obama promised he was going to bring the troops home, now he's going to leave them there. I also read recently that Obama has stated he will support a draft and that everyone should fight, not just some. Obama keeps flip flopping everytime he turns around. I had great respect for him during the primaries, but now his lies and flip flops are so obvious. I know you would prefer that Obama can attack McCain anyway he sees fit (lies, misstatements, calling the oponents pigs, etc) and McCain is supposed to be kind to him because he didn't like it when it was done to him????? With all the attacks Obama and his camp is pulling on McCain & Palin for no good reason and not even sticking to the issues, I can see exactly what his character is like, so yes my friend, that does speak of his character. It is not a pretty sight.
Answers to messages below
I watched the film again. Yup, still am disgusted. I looked for those "subliminal" messages. Even backed it up and went through it clip by clip. Nope, nothing "subliminal". The film is telling you about Obama, Ayers, Weatermen, Acorn, etc. The films clips are of actual footage of the outcome from the horrendous crimes. While Obama will quickly dismiss these associatios as "coincidence" or "he just happened to be a person in my neighborhood" he is not being truthful. Read the history. He has had long-term associations with them and still does (maybe he stopped while campaigning, but no doubt he will pick back up once the election is over) - and if he happens to be elected? Well nothing subliminal there. You know what will happen. If you're in agreement with what Ayers did, what Acorn does, etc, then I'm sure you think it is fine, and if some people don't love America like a lot of us do then I can see why they would think this is the greatest man since the invention of sliced bread. But a lot of us do love America. A lot of us do want America to be free. A lot of us do want to own our own business and invest in America and not have our money "stolen" from us by government that we worked 60 or more hours a week for to make ends meet and now have to work more hours cos the people who aren't working but could are receiving their welfare check (i.e., my money that I had to put in an extra 20 hours a week of work to get it).

If you don't like the film fine. That is your opinion. But plenty of us want to know who Obama really is. Who are his ties? Who are his allegiences? And more importantly - why did they choose him? He didn't pick them, they sought him out. Who got him elevated to where he is at so fast? Who made it possible for him (without experience) to rise past Richardson (a governor with more experience), Biden (over 30 years experience), Edwards (over 10 years experience), Kucinich (close to 40 years experience), and others. And even Hillary (8 years experience and 8 years as first lady (16 if you think being a first lady is experience - I don't but its still more than Obama has).
Who is this Obama guy who so quickly was placed into the position when now (even though I voted for Obama over Hillary) we are finding out that Hillary actually did win. Has to make you wonder who put him where he is (hint - it is not the American citizens - not conspiracy - FACT). There are too many unanswered questions. It has nothing to do with propaganda - it has everything to do with learning who and what Obama is.

To the other poster who thinks poor Obama gets slammed 24/7. Looks like somebody googled a dictionary to find a whole bunch of words. Funny how it's okay to slam McCain/Palin 24/7. As would be described by others "we're just trying to get out the word about them". I'm not slamming any posters on the board. I simply am posting a link about a candidate that I feel very strongly is one of the worst choices for a candidate in history. I'm trying to get people to open their eyes and learn more about them. If you don't want to believe this fine. Google Obama put in everything you can. Even use other search engines like Dogpile and others, but for Petes sake, don't go by what's on Obama's website, or stop the smear or any of those other propaganda websites that pull the "poor Obama, everyone is picking on him, he's so innocent, don't beleive them, call them racists, etc, etc." That is propaganda. And if your going to be getting any "subliminal messages" it will be there. When you have 2 candidates you cannot honestly believe any of their info they put out. Candidates lie to get your vote. That's the ways it's always been done. The only thing the conservatives ask is that people educate themselves about each candidate (both of them). Who are they. Who did they associate with. How did they get where they are at. Who is financing them. What organizations did they belong to and what was the purpose of those organizations. Did they attend secret meetings and if so where and with whom and what is the purpose of those secret organizations. What have they done in their careers. What are there voting records like (i.e. if someone (any candidate past, present, or future) votes for the past 2, 3, 4 or more years to raise taxes but now all of a sudden during the campaign has changed their tune and they are promising you they won't raise your taxes or they'll lower your taxes) has to make you think. Also, and most important to me - Is the person we elect going to uphold the constitution or going to change it because it doesn't align itself with their ways of thinking. In knowing everything I know and in other people's feeling Obama is not. Obama associates with people who say "God D@m American" and people who say "American makes me want to throw up".

I posted the video link because it is one of many films (we won't even go into Obama's ties with Kenya) that is trying to put out the truth about Obama. He used video clips of CNN reporters asking questions and everyone KNOWS that CNN is one of the most liberal (MSNBC is the most liberal - CNN is 2nd) TV stations. Do you disagree with what Hillary Clinton was saying? Do you think anyone wanting to know the truth about Obama's affiliation with Ayers should be just shut up?

So until this election is over I will continue to try to get the word out about Obama life (the one he is hiding from Americans and covering up by instructing his followers to call people racists and insult them if they say anything negative about him).
sorry sam, got the messages mixed up
your right. I thought that gourdpainter was saying people on this board were going to be responsible for attacking Obama then I thought she was calling us skinheads. HA HA HA HA....definitely good thing I went and took a dinner break. Now I understand what she was saying and what your reply was. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry, didn't mean any offense to you. I just get irrited at being attacked all the time.
Mixed messages...(sm)
You basically just said we are all in this together but pi$$ on the poor people.  Unbelievable. 
There were subliminal messages
encoded on those CDs Obama gave Brown.  He has now been assimilated and reprogrammed (not that he needed a he!! of a lot of rewiring to start with.) 
The prior poster was explaining the church ministries
those ministries were consistent with Obama's life experiences, his political career and his current campaign platform. Voters like a consistent candidate with a consistent message, a concept that seems to elude many McCain supporters and certainly goes right over the heads of his campaign managers.

The previous poster was implying that perhaps members of the congregation, both past and present, find value and purpose in those ministries and often choose to participate in the church ministries that service their immediate communities and benefit those who are in the most need wherein, according to Matthew's gospel, the Spirit of Jesus dwells. Some of us really like that about Obama and find it admirable that he embodies this decidedly Christian principle and understands that that we all will be judged by the measure of how we treat the least among us.

My best guess is that the previous poster does not necessarily believe that Christian evangelical pastors of any and all colors are exactly void of fanaticism, bigotry and hatred. Rev Wright certainly may have appeal to some members of that congregation whose core beliefs he reflects, just as John Hagee has a certain appeal to some of his congregation. Having said that, there is still no direct evidence that Hagee reflects McCain's core beliefs any more than there is evidence that Wright reflects Obama's...except in the minds of those who are in charge of the hate patrol.
compared to the prior president anyone is a great orator

Listening to one of his speeches is a breath of fresh air compared to listening to Bush.....I'm betting O will make less speaking mistakes in his entire presidency than Bush made in any one given month during his.


Then quit asking questions and posting messages
If people stopped posting then it wouldn't have come to this.
Stop complaining about where she gets her sources - see messages
Especially since you only post from MSNBC. Who cares that someone posts from Fox, MSNBC, CNN or whoever. You have nothing to complain about the content of the information, just where she posts from. Personally I trust Fox over MSNBC, CNN, Huffington post or any of the far left liberal rags. At least we get the truth from Fox. If all Fox did was praise the annointed one up and down and all over and was giving us lies 24 hours a day like MSNBC, CNN and others you'd be praising them. You just don't like to hear the reality of what is happening.

Here's a hint - Fox News, MSNBC, and CNN all report the same exact news. They just have different commentator shows.

P.S. - Louis Farrakan called Obama the Messiah. I'm sure he's not a conservative (could be wrong, but I don't think he is). Also, Obama NEVER came out to say I am NOT the Messiah. He let people think this with all the miracles he was professing he would do once he got in. The liberals are the one who have said "Obama is the new Messiah". So, everyone just picked up on what the liberals were taughting (sp?) throughout the campaign. Unfortunately too many ignorant people believed it.

So please, enough with whining that someone posts an article from Fox.
Words can come off sounding like an attack, because these messages lack..sm
facial expressions, demeanor, so it leaves the reader to interpret the mood.

I don't know if you were saying me or Sir Percy was a recovering Democrat, but either way I'm a registered Democrat and have never voted for a republican president because of where I stand on social and civil issues.

Speaking of frustrating democrats, and I never thought I would be going here because I have a lot of respect for her. I was even bidding for her to be the first woman president, but Hillary needs to take a stand and stand firm on it, and let us know what it is. Her centrist stance is frustrating because I think she is the one democratic model out there that could speak and be heard and respected. Yet she has been quiet, and too her lack of opposition to the war has taken my respect down for her a few notches.


That is CLASSIC propaganda, music and subliminal messages too
Wow, holy cow is right. How can you allow yourself to be fed this hateful propaganda. It's one thing to take something out of context, but to add in characters and newsflashes about the markets tumbling and to add the dreadful music and paint Barack as some kind of partner in Ayers activities is just anti American. This is anti American crap and you should get educated instead of being a patsy and letting your mind soak in these images. God help you if you ever watch a cult film, you will be drinking the Jonestown Kool-Aid.

I reported 'Ahem's' and 'Anon2's' messages to the moderators
I suppose it is the same person.
Does anybody else get error messages half the time they try to post on this board. ?
.
I have posted many many nice thought provoking messages here and have been called
s
This looks interesting. A long read, so will read it when I get home from work. nm
nm
Obviously u didnt read, I said NONE of them are moral. Read the post before spouting off.

I read on CNN (yes, I do read liberal stuff too..hehe)...sm
...that Karl Rove was actually very disappointed in the McCain campaign for airing negative type ads against Obama.

So I would say that Rove is definitely not in the hip pocket of the McCain campaign.
Good research sam - but a lot to read right now so gotta read it later
I've been goofing off too much from work. I appreciate what you wrote and will read when I'm done with work here.
sorry, should read I did not read post that way.
,
All you have to do is read up on Marxism, read up on...
black liberation theology, and look at what Obama is proposing. All of it a matter of public record, most of it from his own mouth. Your denial of it does not change the facts. If you support socialism, vote for him. Certainly your right. You are already wanting to squelch any kind of dissent...what's up with that? If you seriously consider calling someone a socialist a smear, you really need to read up on your candidate. I did not post a smear, I posted a fact. Redistribution of wealth is socialist and he already said he was going to do it...I heard him say it and it is now a campaign commercial. Sigh.
Some on this board can only read what they want to read (nm)
x
READ THE ARTICLE-READ OTHER
READERS COMMENTS!!!
Nan please read what I have to say

I've read your latest posts.  You fit the decription of a troll at times, but I don't really care about that.  DOesn't matter. What I do notice is that you incite other posters with calculated insults, condescension and twisted and sometimes cruel logic.  Then when the object of your insults becomes angry and lashes back you pretend to be an unfairly accused innocent and the object of someone else's crazy, uncalled-for rage.


This is compatible with borderline personality disorder. My mother had it, a brother-in-law battles it and I am all too familiar with it.


I did read it.
Not posting the whole article puts the quote out of context. It's not really a way to do things on a chat forum, but then maybe you don't post in a lot of other forums.  Those I frequent always post the whole article or at least a link. It would give you a lot more credibility.  Take it for what it's worth.
Read this...
Pandora's Box
September 22, 2005
By Ken Sanders

You have to hand it to the Bush administration. No matter how bad things might be in Iraq, and no matter how dim the prospects are for Iraq's future, Bush & Co. still manage to look the public straight in the eye, smirk, and insist that the decision to invade Iraq was a good one. Call them determined, even stubborn. Call them dishonest, perhaps delusional. Regardless, the fact is that by invading Iraq, the Bush administration opened a Pandora's Box with global consequences.

Bush and his apologists have frequently promised that the invasion of Iraq will spread democracy and stability throughout the entire Middle East. That naive declaration could not be farther from the truth. Not only is Iraq itself in the clutches of a civil war, the U.S.-led invasion threatens to destabilize the whole of the Middle East, if not the world. It may have irrevocably done so already.

By most definitions and standards, Iraq is already in the throes of civil war. Whether defined as an internal conflict resulting in at least 1,000 combat-related fatalities, five percent of which are sustained by government and rebel forces; or as organized violence designed to change the governance of a country; or as a systematic and coordinated sectarian-based conflict; the requirements of civil war have long since been satisfied.

While our television screens are saturated by images of chaos and death in Iraq, the stories beneath the images are even more disturbing. Purely sectarian attacks, largely between Iraq's Sunni and Shiite populations, have been rising dramatically for months. According to Iraqi government statistics, such targeted attacks have doubled over the past twelve months. Police in Iraq are finding scores of bodies littering the streets, bodies of people who were blindfolded or handcuffed, shot or beheaded. The Baghdad morgue is constantly overwhelmed by bodies showing tell-tale signs of torture and gradual, drawn-out, agonizing death.

In Baghdad, Sunni neighborhoods live in fear of Shiite death squads like the Iranian-backed Badr Brigade of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), Iraq's leading Shiite governing coalition. Such death squads operate openly, in full uniform, and with the deliberate ignorance, if not outright sanction, of the Iraqi government. On a single day in August, the bodies of 36 Sunni Arabs were found blindfolded, handcuffed, tortured and executed in a dry riverbed in the Shiite-dominated Wasit province.

At the other end, Shiites face each day burdened by the terror and trauma of being the targets of constant suicide bombings. The army and police recruits killed by suicide bombs are predominantly Shia. In Ramadi, a Sunni stronghold, Shiites are fleeing their homes, driven out by murder and intimidation. On August 17, 43 Shiites were killed by bombings at a bus stop and then at the hospital where the casualties were to be treated.

There are less-violent examples of the deepening rifts between Iraq's Sunnis and Shiites since the U.S.-led invasion. By some estimates, nearly half of the weddings performed in Baghdad before the invasion were of mixed Sunni/Shiite couples. Since the invasion and its resulting instability and strife, such mixed weddings are all but extinct. This new-found reluctance of Sunnis and Shiites to marry each other is just another indication of the increasing isolation and animosity between the two populations.

The recently finalized Iraqi constitution does little to bridge Iraq's growing sectarian divides. The culmination of sectarian feuds passing for political debates, Iraq's constitution only ratifies the sectarian divisions of the nation. In the north are the Kurds who long ago abandoned their Iraqi identity, refusing to even fly the Iraqi flag. In the south is a burgeoning Shiite Islamic state, patterned after and influenced by Iran. Both groups have divvied up Iraq's oil reserves amongst themselves. Left in the nation's oil-free center are the Sunni Arabs, dismissed as obstructionist by the Kurds and Shiites. So unconcerned are the Kurds and Shiites with a unified Iraq that they both maintain their own large and heavily-armed militias.

Of course, the constitution still has to be ratified. If it is ratified, it will likely be by a Shiite/Kurdish minority, effectively maintaining the status quo that motivates, in part, the Sunni-led insurgency. If, on the other hand, the constitution is defeated, there's little reason not to believe that the three major factions in Iraq won't resort to forcibly taking what they want. Either way, in the words of one Iraqi civilian, God help us.

The discord in Iraq is not limited to fighting between Shiites and Sunnis. In Basra, for instance, rival Shiite militia groups constantly fight each other. The notorious Badr Brigade, backed by SCIRI, have repeatedly clashed with dissident cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi militia. The Badr Brigade frequently works in conjunction with Basra police and are suspected of recently kidnapping and killing two journalists. Suspecting that the Basra police have been infiltrated by both the Badr and Mehdi militias, the British military sent in two undercover operatives to make arrests. The British operatives were themselves arrested by the Basra police. When the British went to liberate their men, they found themselves exchanging fire with the Basra police, their heretofore allies, and smashing through the prison walls with armored vehicles.

Iraqis aren't merely growing increasingly alienated from each other, as well as progressively opposed to coalition forces. Iraq's estrangement from the rest of the Middle East and the Arab world is widening as well. Seen more and more as a proxy of the Iranian government, the Shiite/Kurd dominated Iraq finds itself at odds with the Sunni-dominated Middle East. For instance, since the U.S.-led invasion, not a single Middle East nation has sent an ambassador to Baghdad. And, despite promises to do so, the Arab League (of which Iraq was a founder) has yet to open a Baghdad office.

There are, clearly, many reasons other than sectarianism for Iraq's estrangement from the Middle East and Arab nations, security being the foremost. However, Iraqi diplomacy, or lack thereof, is also to blame. From chiding Qatar for sending aid to Katrina victims but not to Iraq, to arguing with Kuwait over border issues, to blaming Syria for the insurgency, Iraq's fledgling government seems to have taken diplomacy lessons from the Bush administration. In fact, with the exception of Iran, Iraq has butted heads recently with nearly every Middle East nation.

Iraq's constitution hasn't won it any friends in the Arab world, either. For instance, Iraq drew strong condemnation from the Arab world when a draft of its constitution read that just its Arab people are part of the Arab nation. Only after the outcry from the Arab League and numerous Arab nations, did Iraq change its constitution's offending language. (The argument by Bush's apologists that the Iraqi constitution's alleged enshrinement of democratic principles threatens neighboring countries is unconvincing. Syria and Egypt both have constitutions that guarantee political and individual freedoms. In practice, however, such guarantees have proven meaningless. Why, then, should they feel threatened?)

Iraq's varied relationships with Middle Eastern nations will be immeasurably significant should Iraq descend further into civil war. For example, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Jordan would most likely come to the support of Iraq's Sunnis. (There are already signs that the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq has impacted Saudi Arabia's Sunni population. According to a recent study, the invasion of Iraq has radicalized previously non-militant Saudis, sickened by the occupation of an Arab nation by non-Arabs.) Iran would only increase its already staunch support for Iraq's Shiites. Turkey would also likely be drawn in, hoping to prevent any Kurdish success in Iraq from spilling across its border. Moreover, Iraq's violent Sunni-Shiite discord could easily spark similar strife in Middle East countries like Bahrain, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

In such a worst-case scenario, Iraq's instability would spread and infect an already unstable region. If the Gulf region were to further destabilize, so too would the global economy as oil prices would skyrocket, plunging the U.S. and so many others into recession.

Put another way, Bush's illegal, ill-conceived, short-sighted, and naive venture in Iraq could reasonably result in total chaos in not just Iraq and the Middle East, but the world over.

A Pandora's Box, if there ever was one.
Sorry, but can you read?
pizza. Don't you think they've thought of moving? It isn't always practical to simply uproot. In this case, there is an elderly family member and children. Again, from the throne passing judgement.

This makes no sense: I'm talking about a certain segment of our society who refuse to learn, refuse to work, and who YOU wish to bring up to an equal place as the rest of society who works hard and earns what they have. Huh? You still missed the point...good grief.


I read that. And then MT goes on

to criticize you for suggesting that posters visit eXtremely Political and is aghast at the post that calls for shooting someone who doesn't agree...... she just FAILS to mention that it's a NEOCON who wants to shoot LIBERALS!!!


This is what she wrote:


Sorry, had to answer this one.  There have a Whine to Management option.  That is PERFECT for gt.  Talking about shooting other posters, atheism and porno.  Yeah, that's a great place alright.  And now they have THE gt as a member.  Does it get any better than that.  Although, my thoughts are they won't suffer her long.  Those people are pirrhanas.


Well, if that ain't the pirrhana calling the shark hungry!


Perhaps you need to read
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry. --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:545

We have no right to prejudice another in his civil enjoyments because he is of another church. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:546

I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another. --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle. --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others. --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803. ME 10:378

Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine. --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:198

and many more: http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
You need to read that again.
Yes, it is US law, according to the Constitution.

The United States signed the UN Charter -- which is a treaty. Let me repeat:

Article VI of the U.S. Constitution makes treaties into which the U.S. has entered the supreme Law of the Land.

In other words, we made a treaty with a bunch of other countries to abide by certain rules, including the use of force. Since we entered into this treaty with the UN, that makes it the supreme Law of the Land -- US Law.

Sure, you can say, So what? Nobody's going to take us to court. We can do anything we want. But if we as a country aren't going to respect our agreements with other countries and our own laws, why should anybody else? Nobody is above the law, right?


By the way, I think we were fully justified in invading Afghanistan.








I have read this...

So what. At one point you say he was involved with AIM and had a lackey break someone's arm. Now you are providing us with an article that disavows any connection with AIM at all. Which is it? Could it be that some folks who were involved with AIM in the late 60s early 70s are no longer involved, or are dead or have had major disagreements along the way about what should be done. Banks, Russell Means and Peltier don't even speak to each other any more. That is sad, in my opinion. Trudell, on the other hand, is still around. (I had the pleasure of meeting him last Saturday in Hollywood Florida at the Native American Music Awards) and still fights the good fight although his wife and children were burned to death in an FBI arson. There is a video, called simply Trudell. It has aired on PBS stations. It is also available from Trudell's web site. It you get a chance, see it. There is so much information out there that no one seems to care much about as regards the American Indian from Columbus to today. The history is always written by the victor and the American Indian history is distorted.


You can read whatever you want...
into what people say. Some are not very tactful and some, like our president, just can't get a syntax together to save their souls. I still think the sentiment was not that these Americans do not want democracy. I still think they thought we **deserved** to be surprised because we have ignored  Middle East history, the British colonization, the politics, the culture, the nature of Islam when, in reality, bearing in mind our support for Israel and our dismissal of the Arab states, it should not have been a surprise. This has been brewing for quite some time. That is not the same thing. I really don't know what those 2 had in their hearts but I truly believe that one saying the US has treated the Arab states badly in the past does not make one a **terrorist** or a communist or a democracy hater. These people attempt to see all sides of things, in all colors, not just black and white. Those are the people who will ultimately garner peace if it is at all possible. It will not come at the barrel of a gun, no matter what has happened in the past.
Yep, I know, I can read. NM

Well, I don't read the

leftist blogs or any other blogs for that matter, too much like talk radio. I also don't need to plagerize anything; I can think for myself, thank you very much.


 


I have read this one over and over...s/m
What has happened in this country over the years? Why the almost blind acceptance of things, almost anything that is done? Where are the idealistic youth? Their future is at stake, so many, many issues, yet, where are they? Why the banket of almost deafening silence?   It scares me.
have you read...
anything written by Michelle Obama? she is truly a racist. Your remarks about her scare me. Make sure you are truly informed. John McCain is a down-to-earth person who would do well in office, but the reality is no president can make the changes outlined above. It takes all the members of the house and senate to begin to make change, not just one man.
Where can we read about this? TIA - nm

can't read and can't

recognize inappropriate behavior in temprament.  Oy.


 


Read it before....
....Opinion section can state anything they want to, and so can you.

So can I.

Seems to me, though, are those three tiny words by Gov. Palin, that are given very little credence here:

"Hold me accountable."

I kinda have the feeling that she doesn't have much to hide here, having read other parts of this story before too.

So bring it on.

I have the feeling that Gov. Palin will come out on top.