Well the reason this war is illegal is because IRAQ did not attack AMERICA...sm
Posted By: Democrat on 2006-06-08
In Reply to: Agreeing with a person and truth is another - ???
But that logic escapes its supporters so maybe that's the reason Starcat doesn't come out and say it. There's really noting more to it. There were other ways to take Saddam out, and I believe that. An all out preemptive war that is on year 3, because of WMD that is yet to be found. Effectively making that stretch of land a more fertile ground for violence. Of course you don't see a problem here.
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Iraq did not attack America, as much as you want to lump it all in one pot - they didn't...sm
It's that grasping at straws logic I don't understand fully. First though, I really enjoyed your post and I respect your point of view.
You say that we were not attacked but yet our troops were deployed all over the world under Clinton. Newsflash, they still are under Bush, so what's the point? That has been America's role since before Clinton - World Police. Clinton didn't ask for the role, it was already there. Second, we did not invade and occupy Bosnia or any other country under Clinton if I remember correctly. We helped people who were being slaughtered AT THE TIME. How could YOU support Iraq and not Bosnia? Matter of fact, I would have like to see Clinton do more, especially in Rwanda.
The thing about our *invasion and occupation* of Iraq is that they did not attack us on 911. Their country was stable when we attacked them. As far as I know, the mass murders and killings were not going on, there was not WMD, the sanctions were working. They were not at war among themselves. We had no right or reason to intervene this way. Sure, the people were oppresed (so are many other countries) but they weren't a terrorist breeding ground either. Don't get me wrong, I hope we or they are able to have stability in Iraq and soon, but I have many reservations that this will come to pass anytime soon.
You brought up something interesting though when you said the Al Qaeda terrorist organization is now down to 17,000?? I'm curious to know how many there were to start with? It's hard to see this as progress if we don't know how many there were to begin with.
Her true reason is to attack.
She made that abundantly clear in her post. I'm just ignoring her from now on. She's not worth the hassle. 
This is the reason we are in Iraq and it's the same reason I didn't vote for him in 2000: Didn't
his own personal reasons.
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050620/why_george_went_to_war.php
The Downing Street memos have brought into focus an essential question: on what basis did President George W. Bush decide to invade Iraq? The memos are a government-level confirmation of what has been long believed by so many: that the administration was hell-bent on invading Iraq and was simply looking for justification, valid or not.
Despite such mounting evidence, Bush resolutely maintains total denial. In fact, when a British reporter asked the president recently about the Downing Street documents, Bush painted himself as a reluctant warrior. "Both of us didn't want to use our military," he said, answering for himself and British Prime Minister Blair. "Nobody wants to commit military into combat. It's the last option."
Yet there's evidence that Bush not only deliberately relied on false intelligence to justify an attack, but that he would have willingly used any excuse at all to invade Iraq. And that he was obsessed with the notion well before 9/11—indeed, even before he became president in early 2001.
In interviews I conducted last fall, a well-known journalist, biographer and Bush family friend who worked for a time with Bush on a ghostwritten memoir said that an Iraq war was always on Bush's brain.
"He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999," said author and Houston Chronicle journalist Mickey Herskowitz. "It was on his mind. He said, 'One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.' And he said, 'My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.' He went on, 'If I have a chance to invade…, if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency.'"
Bush apparently accepted a view that Herskowitz, with his long experience of writing books with top Republicans, says was a common sentiment: that no president could be considered truly successful without one military "win" under his belt. Leading Republicans had long been enthralled by the effect of the minuscule Falklands War on British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's popularity, and ridiculed Democrats such as Jimmy Carter who were reluctant to use American force. Indeed, both Reagan and Bush's father successfully prosecuted limited invasions (Grenada, Panama and the Gulf War) without miring the United States in endless conflicts.
Herskowitz's revelations illuminate Bush's personal motivation for invading Iraq and, more importantly, his general inclination to use war to advance his domestic political ends. Furthermore, they establish that this thinking predated 9/11, predated his election to the presidency and predated his appointment of leading neoconservatives who had their own, separate, more complex geopolitical rationale for supporting an invasion.
Conversations With Bush The Candidate
Herskowitz—a longtime Houston newspaper columnist—has ghostwritten or co-authored autobiographies of a broad spectrum of famous people, including Reagan adviser Michael Deaver, Mickey Mantle, Dan Rather and Nixon cabinet secretary John B. Connally. Bush's 1999 comments to Herskowitz were made over the course of as many as 20 sessions together. Eventually, campaign staffers—expressing concern about things Bush had told the author that were included in the manuscript—pulled the project, and Bush campaign officials came to Herskowitz's house and took his original tapes and notes. Bush communications director Karen Hughes then assumed responsibility for the project, which was published in highly sanitized form as A Charge to Keep.
The revelations about Bush's attitude toward Iraq emerged during two taped sessions I held with Herskowitz. These conversations covered a variety of matters, including the journalist's continued closeness with the Bush family and fondness for Bush Senior—who clearly trusted Herskowitz enough to arrange for him to pen a subsequent authorized biography of Bush's grandfather, written and published in 2003.
I conducted those interviews last fall and published an article based on them during the final heated days of the 2004 campaign. Herskowitz's taped insights were verified to the satisfaction of editors at the Houston Chronicle, yet the story failed to gain broad mainstream coverage, primarily because news organization executives expressed concern about introducing such potent news so close to the election. Editors told me they worried about a huge backlash from the White House and charges of an "October Surprise."
Debating The Timeline For War
But today, as public doubts over the Iraq invasion grow, and with the Downing Street papers adding substance to those doubts, the Herskowitz interviews assume singular importance by providing profound insight into what motivated Bush—personally—in the days and weeks following 9/11. Those interviews introduce us to a George W. Bush, who, until 9/11, had no means for becoming "a great president"—because he had no easy path to war. Once handed the national tragedy of 9/11, Bush realized that the Afghanistan campaign and the covert war against terrorist organizations would not satisfy his ambitions for greatness. Thus, Bush shifted focus from Al Qaeda, perpetrator of the attacks on New York and Washington. Instead, he concentrated on ensuring his place in American history by going after a globally reviled and easily targeted state run by a ruthless dictator.
The Herskowitz interviews add an important dimension to our understanding of this presidency, especially in combination with further evidence that Bush's focus on Iraq was motivated by something other than credible intelligence. In their published accounts of the period between 9/11 and the March 2003 invasion, former White House Counterterrorism Coordinator Richard Clarke and journalist Bob Woodward both describe a president single-mindedly obsessed with Iraq. The first anecdote takes place the day after the World Trade Center collapsed, in the Situation Room of the White House. The witness is Richard Clarke, and the situation is captured in his book, Against All Enemies.
On September 12th, I left the Video Conferencing Center and there, wandering alone around the Situation Room, was the President. He looked like he wanted something to do. He grabbed a few of us and closed the door to the conference room. "Look," he told us, "I know you have a lot to do and all…but I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this. See if he's linked in any way…"
I was once again taken aback, incredulous, and it showed. "But, Mr. President, Al Qaeda did this."
"I know, I know, but…see if Saddam was involved. Just look. I want to know any shred…" …
"Look into Iraq, Saddam," the President said testily and left us. Lisa Gordon-Hagerty stared after him with her mouth hanging open.
Similarly, Bob Woodward, in a CBS News 60 Minutes interview about his book, Bush At War, captures a moment, on November 21, 2001, where the president expresses an acute sense of urgency that it is time to secretly plan the war with Iraq. Again, we know there was nothing in the way of credible intelligence to precipitate the president's actions.
Woodward: "President Bush, after a National Security Council meeting, takes Don Rumsfeld aside, collars him physically and takes him into a little cubbyhole room and closes the door and says, 'What have you got in terms of plans for Iraq? What is the status of the war plan? I want you to get on it. I want you to keep it secret.'"
Wallace (voiceover): Woodward says immediately after that, Rumsfeld told Gen. Tommy Franks to develop a war plan to invade Iraq and remove Saddam—and that Rumsfeld gave Franks a blank check.
Woodward: "Rumsfeld and Franks work out a deal essentially where Franks can spend any money he needs. And so he starts building runways and pipelines and doing all the necessary preparations in Kuwait specifically to make war possible."
Bush wanted a war so that he could build the political capital necessary to achieve his domestic agenda and become, in his mind, "a great president." Blair and the members of his cabinet, unaware of the Herskowitz conversations, placed Bush's decision to mount an invasion in or about July of 2002. But for Bush, the question that summer was not whether, it was only how and when. The most important question, why, was left for later.
Eventually, there would be a succession of answers to that question: weapons of mass destruction, links to Al Qaeda, the promotion of democracy, the domino theory of the Middle East. But none of them have been as convincing as the reason George W. Bush gave way back in the summer of 1999.
Yeah, Iraq didn't attack us. There was a memo. nm
x
so many attack - no real reason AND no positive info on Obama
The more McCain/Palin's ratings are going up, the more the democrats are panicking, and the attacks about Palin are becoming more vicious - AND nobody is posting anything positive about Obama, like "I'm really excited about his health care plan or his energy plan or his housing fix plan or 100 other reasons we should be voting for someone. No, nothing positive about him...AND I'm not even hearing anything negative against McCain's plan. It's just vicious rumors, lies, and conjectures about Sarah Palin. Let's see. I've heard she hunts, she's for killing innocent soldiers and civilians in Iraq, she has a tanning bed, her daughter's pregnant, she didn't answer questions the way you would answer them (which in all fairness to her the interview was a bait & trap situation - especially when half the country was asking "what part is he asking her about?"). So for all those who say she didn't get it, neither did half the country (but those must be the people who cling to their guns and religion). Let's see...what else. She's selling her baby on e-bay, the father of her daughter's baby is skum, she believes in God, etc, etc. Oh yes, the best one was someone didn't like her because she is pretty and was in a beauty pagent (although I can't decide whether that is the best or that someone believes she was selling her baby on e-bay). Yet you refuse to list any of her good qualities like she cut out pork spending, she balanced the budget, she stands up to the big guy, she gave refunds to all Alaskan citizens who paid too much in money to the oil executives, she's smart about energy and she's for drilling here in the states (which will cut our gas and oil prices in half), and the numerous other good things she has done. I've heard she's not experienced (but you won't admit that neither is Obama). Then of course when someone posts something positive about her you jump down their backs and are just really nasty. And then what kind of comments do I hear about McCain? He doesn't use the computer (someone was actually complaining about him not sending out emails himself on September 11th), and someone else was making fun of him because he doesn't comb his hair. I hear that and think that there are people who have small minds. He can't do either because he was beaten without mercy and he can't lift his arms up to do these activities (and you have the audacity to make fun of him for that?) But you know what? At least he can still put his hand over his heart when the pledge of allegience is being said and the national anthem is being played.
You know, if your going to say something negative about someone at least have a comeback with something negative that is halfway intelligent and counter it with something positive from the candidate you support.
And for petes sake, use John McCain's real name, not the phony acronyms you like to use. He was in a POW camp for five years beaten til near death every day. He's earned the respect to at least call him by his real name. Whether or not you hate him so much, he is not Bush and he is not more of the same. His policies and voting record proves differently. You can't say he voted the same as Bush because Bush doesn't vote. Anything that's been voted on that you want to blame Bush for you need to take a look at the democrat congress. Their the ones voting, and its the democrats who have stopped the impeachment hearing for Bush. Why???? McCain's policies, health care plan, his reform plan, his economy plan, and everything else about what he will do when he becomes president is different than what Bush has done. Bush is Bush, McCain is McCain. If anyone is to be compared to Bush it would be Obama because the people who are directing Bush are also the same group that is directing Obama.
So, can we please be civilized adults, and come up with hard facts before accusing one candidate of something that is obviously false. Stick to issues and no rumors.
The main reason we went to war with Iraq
was the same reason Clinton said...because of Hussein's failing to comply with U.S. Sanctions. I think GWB gave Hussein several more months to comply before he made a military move. After 9/11 the patience with Hussein ran out, and we could take no chances with his noncompliance. The stakes were just too high. I'm not disputing that some of the intelligence may have been faulty. I think it has been proven that the CIA is not up to snuff, and the deterioration began way before GWB took office but to say emphatically Bush lied is stepping way out on a limb. Thanks for discussing issues Dem. It's a breath of fresh air from all the fighting that's going on.
I agree, which is exactly the reason why we should not be in Iraq
we should be using all of our resources to hunt down the people behind the 9/11 attacks.
Pull this all together for us, how does liberating the Iraqis and destabilizing that country tie into us kicking the asses of the terrorist responsible for the 9/11 attacks?
Why do you feel the desperate need to attack, attack, attack....
what IS it about Obama that inspires this kind of thing? I guess you don't get it when someone is being facetious do you? Read the whole thread...including the part about celestial choirs, which was said by one of Obama's supporters.
The smoke machines and strobe lights was definitely a joke, one can only hope they would not do something so ridiculous but who knows....Britney Spears' set designer designed that set.
So much for no celebrity status. LOL.
And that statement is ridiculous, Iran and Iraq enemies, remember the Iran-Iraq war? Iraq would jus
nm
Bush didn't destroy Iraq. He helped to liberate Iraq.
m
Still not illegal
I agree with Lila that I believe abortion is immoral but it's not illegal. Legality is a tangible thing and not an opinion.
but just because you think it should be illegal
doesn't mean that it IS illegal. U.S. law does not hinge on whether you think something should be illegal, although you certainly affect that outcome by your vote.
Democrat, relativism will not work here. Your opinion on what reality should be does not make that reality so. I imagine a world where no unborn babies are killed, but I realize that it may never happen AND I acknowledge at this very moment that abortion is legal whether I like the fact or not.
and this is illegal?
x
And these will be some of the illegal
big O elected, should it happen.
then that is illegal -
grant money does not have to be counted as income, but you cannot turn around and count tuition as an expense if you received the grant money.
It adds up though with just the EIC to a lot of money without adding in that other stuff.
It really makes me sick! I believe in having programs to help people with childcare, food expenses, housing expense, etc., but I don't believe in just handing money to someone because they have the misfortune of making less money.
It is not fair and it has been abused too much!
THAT's what you got out of this...... not the law the illegal
nm
I don't know of any illegal immoral war
This war was approved by our own elected officials in the house and senate. I won't even start on the immoral part, because you really know that's bunk too.
The fact is the war is not illegal
It went through all appropriate channels, and we have NEVER agreed with the U.N. to approve all military actions through them. We do have agreements, but we have NEVER given the U.N. the authority to tell us whether we will go to war or not. The congress has ultimate authority to approvate any military action we pursue, period. They approved it, so it's completely legal.
That's how W got elected! U mean that was illegal! Huh!
Can't imagine the pubs doing anything illegal.,,,,,,,
Coz that is illegal under campaign
finance law. Maybe McCain can allow homeless to stay in one of his 11 homes when he and Cindy are out flying in their personal jet?
not illegal, but definitely unethical
nm
shouldn't have said illegal, but
does all that make you think this election is going to be legitimate? Why, oh why can't people just do things straight up and let the people really be heard. I am sick of the whole thing, and honestly do not believe it really matters who wins either way... they are all politicians
Illegal immigrants.....
It is estimated that there are 10 million illegal immigrants in the US.
I bet it has to be to some advantage for the US, otherwise they would be persecuted more severely.
What do you expect from an illegal? (sm)
He's probably trying to get McCain to lend him his birth certificate.
Illegal aliens are definitely
hurting our country expense wise. I know they want a better life and I know they want a chance at the American dream too and I can't blame them for that. But they are going to have to do it the legal way. It almost seems like illegals have more rights than we do sometimes. Jobs are scarce as it is....we don't need illegals coming in wanting jobs too.
no, they were not an illegal alien, are you? nm
no, not an illegal alien, are you? nm
Illegal aliens
http://www.kfire.us/Brochure/Publicationblue2.pdf
We need to pay more attention to illegal aliens than we do. We don't want things in the US like MS 13....which unfortunately is already in the US. This gang is brutal and will do anything to anyone if they get in their way. The costs of illegal aliens
Illegal aliens hurt our schools which in turn hurt our children. They are getting free healthcare in emergency rooms that taxpayers are paying for. Some of you on this board might actually want to research this a bit before you say it isn't a big deal.
About illegal aliens.
There was another "gathering" yesterday for the Hispanic man beaten to death almost a year ago. One of the banners stated 'Stop the raids and deportation'. The other one read 'Stop racial hatred. Stop separation of families.' and 2 others I couldn't catch. Two women from Philadelphia stated "We have to stop deporting the people. They are human beings, too." Unbelievable! 
There have been a total of 4 "gatherings" to honor the man that was killed. This town is 30% Hispanic now in a period of about 4 years. The background of this town and its people are mostly Polish, Irish, and Italian who came here to work in the mines in the late 1800s and early 1900s. There are only about 6,000 people in this town now.
http://www.republicanherald.com/articles/2009/02/15/news/local_news/pr_republican.20090215.a.pg1.pr15vigil_s1.2306408_loc.txt
How many think you should bail out illegal
Unfortunately, there is no illegal prohibition against it
nm
Suicide is illegal.....
but how do you prosecute? sorry, but I find this morbidly funny. If someone wants to end their life, they will.
oh..he did a few things unethical and illegal
Getting information about his blind trust investments and also cashing in stock within two weeks before his father and brother owned hospital corporations stock was devalued. Like what Martha Stewart did..Got an inside tip. He denied he ever knew what was in his blind trust, however, the new head of the SEC said Frist was given many updates on what stocks he had and how they were doing, which is a no no as being a lawmaker he could easily sway laws to benefit the companies he has invested in.
If illegal, immoral war is genocide, then yes.
be escorted to France.
Show me in law were pre-emptive war is illegal
Please pray tell, because the executive, judicial, legislative branches all disagree with you on that one. Sorry
It's morally illegal in my opinion...nm
illegal health care
I so agree with you on this. I typed a lot of reports a while back that are similar to what you are typing. Also, I thought it funny how many illegal adults were getting care through the hospital as well. The only way I knew this was those who were illegal did not have SS# when every other patient did. It's sad. I took a 2nd full-time job just so I could have insurance!
We are not funding an illegal immoral war...
we are funding our troops in combat sent there by our duly elected Congress. There is nothing illegal about that. If you are suggesting we withdraw funding from our troops who are in combat, that is definitely UNpatriotic and I would venture to say borders on treason. And what a nice message to send to our men and women in harm's way..."you are dying for nothing in an illegal immoral war and you are taking money we could be using for extending entitlements higher up the income ladder." Yeah, that is patriotic. Oh yeah. Ask a soldier how patriotic that is. You, my friend, need to buy a vowel and get a clue yourself.
And please, stop with the name calling. Your post was was judgmental, so pot calling the kettle black there. The last 4 years you have had a Congress controlled by Democrats, so any "ruining" that has been done during this time certainly has had Dem help.
All of the front-running Dem candidates, Clinton, Obama and Edwards...all said at the New Hampshire debate they could not commit to having the troops out of Iraq by 2013, so for all their posturing, they are not going to end the war either.
Protest may be patriotic...so should be good taste and basic care about how men and women in harm's way perceive what they hear you say and do. But of course...you don't care about that...and to me that is the height of selfishness. It is more important for you to protest than it is to support men and women in combat. In what alternate reality can you find that patrotic?
Get a grip. This is illegal and against the constitution. nm
.
No, it wasn't right. It's unfair, & illegal.
If Mrs. M thinks Fox is illegal and Rush too, obviously she's not for...
free speech, and that is Marxism, socialism, and communism.
The fairness doctrine is fair only to the far left media.
All your civil liberties will go down the tubes, and obama supporters could care less.
Ignorance at its finest.
Doesn't mean I want it to be illegal at all stages because (sm)
I know what the dire consequences of that would be as well. But there has to be a limit.
nothing illegal has occurred until they actually vote -
it is up to the pollsters to keep the people from voting illegally - if you check people's ID that should take care of the situation.
Views on illegal immigrants and which ...sm
presidential candidate do you think MAY do something more about it. I am sure a lot of you realize we have illegal immigrants (mostly in large number Mexican immigrants) who have swarmed into the country illegally.
I have an Mexian illegal immigrant who lives near me. She is nice enough. She doesn't speak really good english. I know she got pregnant and was actually able to go to our neighboring state and apply for Medicaid to pay for her prenatal care and the child after it was born. And do you know she got Medicaid and I know for a fact she is an illegal immigrant because she told me herself. I asked and she told me. When it is possible for someone who is not even in our country legally to obtain government assistance, that is just insane. What is wrong with our country? 
Thoughts on illegal immigrants...
Are they working on getting their citizenship. If so, what is the time frame to getting citizenship. Isn't that the name of the game?
Here in ATL, it is a hot topic on the news. I just want what is fair to happen. I do want secure borders, however. My reason is to keep out terrorists. They can blend in with neighboring borders and pretend to be a citizen from that country.
Remember that guy who said he wanted to learn to fly a plane but didn't want to learn how to land. why didn't red flags go up with that comment. It seems we work extra hard at keeping airports safe but not borders. and I know people get offended when you want the borders safe but those people should also want safe borders from the terrorists for their families.
Don't want to offend, just want to be fair to everybody.
Yes, children are but NOT the ILLEGAL PARENTS...they
--
Abortion is morally illegal in my opinion.
So who is right about any of this? When we look at matters such as these, we judge subjectively and that's natural. I believe we have to stop terrorism. This war is not morally illegal to me.
Droves of illegal immigrants entering now...sm
so what's the difference. Our great USA is in complete turmoil. Things including economy were much better when Bill Clinton was president. People could not have been in their right mind to vote for Bush twice.
Agree illegal health care has got to go!
I type an account where there appears to be many illegal aliens in that area, in that 90% of the babies getting tests have a hispanic last name and its often mentioned interpreters were needed to speak to the parents. Some never get a first name, I'd say at least 25% of the babies I type reports for have been in and out of intensive care for up to a year and still are going by "babyboy" or "babygirl" as a first name. Page after page of tests performed for each baby, and that's just in my specialty! We have to be spending millions on this and for what, to enourage them to come here and dump their babies at the hospital at birth and not even bother to name them? It makes me really disgusted to type the 50th report for "babyboy gonzalez" who is 18 months old and still in the ICU for congenital heart problems/lung problems, knowing darn well his healthcare is free while I can barely afford to insure my own child! We owe these illegals nothing yet we rob from our own to cater to them! Are we crazy?
Obama receiving illegal funding.
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/241ee34b-28b0-48cf-b533-53cfa4c1d213
Read your own article. The charities are not illegal.
Then try Googling the full street addresses and go to the street view feature of the addresses that DO exist. Lot of trees in front of the properties, but cars parked along a residential street. Big scandal. Maybe whoever posted the original rumor should learn how to use the Cook County Appraisal District website properly. Just because they are not able to get a hit does not mean the address does not exist.
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