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what about grandchildren?....great grandkids?..nm

Posted By: remember the thalidomide babies...sm on 2007-02-03
In Reply to: That's the part that would scare me (sm) - Txmt




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grandchildren
My husband grew up grandparents in same town. Mine were in other states. My mother and in-law did not have the grandma gene. My only grandchild is two days away and I hate it. She is only 18 MO and does not know us. Plan to move closer when hubby retires in six years.
Step-grandchildren advice anyone?

My son and DIL have dated since my step-granddaughter was 6 months old.  They would be together, break up, get back together....you get the picture.  Whenever they would break up, DIL would come and get any pictures I had of my step-granddaughter because "I would just throw them away."  I have completely stayed out of the situation between my son and DIL because I knew they would be back together in a couple of weeks.  At first, I was VERY attached to my now step-granddaughter.  I have evidently built up a wall now and I am having a very hard time being a "real" grandma to her.  I feel so guilty about this but just can't seem to become attached to her.  I guess I've built up some walls in fear that she will be taken away again like she had been so many times before.  I know it isn't her fault.  By the way, she is 8 now and they have been married for 4 years.  Anyhow, they are trying to have a baby and I am so excited...but feel horribly guilty because of it.  I just know in my heart that this baby will always be my grandchild.  By the way, DIL's parents are divorced and they all spoil my granddaughter like it is a competition.  She has every toy imaginable.  I guess my question is, how do I get over it and really be a grandma to her?


I have thrown in the towel with kids, grandchildren
Know this sounds harsh but I just got tired of trying. I am the kid's paternal grandmother and never came close to the love and affection they showered on their maternal one even though I tried and tried. They were taken as small infants mostly to her home and I came in a far second even though we lived close by one another. They are now 16 and 18 and I rarely see or talk with them and I have a wonderful life and it really doesn't bother me anymore like it once did. Such are the facts of life. My son (their father) apparently was engulfed by the other side and did not stand up for me. That is life. I just wish them well.
My grandchildren bypassed me in earlier years
to go to their maternal grandmother, their aunts, their cousins, etc. I just finally gave up and did not seek out their visiting me anymore. Their mother did not want to share (my son should have done his share to see both grandparents to have time)- bottom line on this, they live about 15 minutes away- girl went off to college and wrote me saying surprised I did not come around nor call and I seemed to be ok with that. I did not go into why I was not in the picture, told her I was very happy and accept things as they were. She said saw her aunt more than me and told her that was the way it had been since she was born, not my choice but I just came to accept it. I do not worry about it anymore.
Two youngest grandchildren here tonight. They love breakfast for supper. (sm)
Will do bacon, hashbrowns, a frittata, biscuits and juice. If their mom gets here in time for supper will do gravy for her biscuits. The kids and my husband don't care for biscuits and gravy. (Go Figure).
Spend most of the $$$ on the grandkids now.
Give our four kids and spouses $50.00 per couple to purchase something they would like. Usually my husband will give the men a pocket knife or some small tool (under $15.00) the women get a Christmas ornament for the tree each year. Used to spend more on them before they had their own children. Probably spend $75.00 each on each of the seven grandchildren. Always ask for nothing from them, as I feel that Christmas is really for the kids and now grandkids. They don't need to spend their money on us and we really need nothing. I usually will spend about $200.00 on my husband. Don't exchange with parents per their request (only 1 set left), or with my or DH siblings (too many). Just happy if everyone can stop by for the dinner which we hold every year for the family. Also, I pick things up all through the year, to help spread out the spending, which helps.
Even though my grandkids very close by
they both drive yet never come this way. Have not seen them now in 2 or 3 years I guess. Got letter from GD when she started college saying shame she saw her great aunt more than me- told her this had gone on since she was first born, nothing new- my DIL never wanted to share with me so I just finally said enough. Tried and tried but her family not only pushed me aside but I really lost my son also, like they engulfed him. Oh well... I have lived at my new home since 2004 and living 15 minutes away, he has never been here. Live and learn.
Will spend about $300 for the grandkids..
we don't buy for anyone else. DH and I buy what we want throughout the year. This year though he wants a metal detector, probably around $1200 and I have the same amount to do something with. We don't really buy gifts for each other but we do go away for Christmas week to a cabin in the mountains that we rent, no phone, no TV, have to drive 12 miles to get cell service. We relax, read, snowshoe, ski, bring the portable DVD player and catch up on movies, sleep late. That's our gift to each other.
I loved it when my grandkids used to stay
with me. Always knew what the next days dress was, no fussing or fighting about who had who to wear- could care less what the children liked or did not like- very simple- they just laid out their own clothes for the next day, simple for everyone.
LOL! My MIL does this every year with 5 grandkids, just not on purpose nm
!
Would break my heart if my grandkids didn't want to come over. (sm)
Actually they truly love to take turns spending the night and being the "only one" for a while.

I don't think you should force them either. They can visit without having to be stuck there spending the night.

She should re-evaluate herself and wonder why they don't love to come see granny.
My problem is our kids are the only grandkids on both sides....
so both sets of grandparents spoil them rotten...
Husband for sale - harder to work with him home than the grandkids. (sm)

He is cleaning our furnace and muttering, muttering, hollering where is this, I bet I have got up and went in there 4 times this morning to just have him mutter never mind I found it. 


You gotta love them, but he of all people should know my money comes from my butt being in that chair. 


If you who have kids or grandkids check out the lunar eclipse tonight....

at least they'll have something cool to contribute at school in the morning, you get to spend time with them and they may actually be interested.  Or you can just have a special moment with your spouse thinking about the first lunar eclipse you saw together.  Have fun!   Cat



Eclipse


Path of the Moon through Earth's umbral and penumbral shadows
during the Total Lunar Eclipse of February 20, 2008.
(Eastern Standard Time)

Introduction


A total eclipse of the Moon occurs during the night of Wednesday, February 20/21, 2008. The entire event is visible from South America and most of North America (on Feb. 20) as well as Western Europe, Africa, and western Asia (on Feb. 21). During a total lunar eclipse, the Moon's disk can take on a dramatically colorful appearance from bright orange to blood red to dark brown and (rarely) very dark gray.


An eclipse of the Moon can only take place at Full Moon, and only if the Moon passes through some portion of Earth's shadow. The shadow is actually composed of two cone-shaped parts, one nested inside the other. The outer shadow or penumbra is a zone where Earth blocks some (but not all) of the Sun's rays. In contrast, the inner shadow or umbra is a region where Earth blocks all direct sunlight from reaching the Moon.


If only part of the Moon passes through the umbra, a partial eclipse is seen. However, if the entire Moon passes through the umbral shadow, then a total eclipse of the Moon occurs. For more information on how, what, why, where and when of lunar eclipses, see the special web page lunar eclipses for beginners.





Lunar Eclipse Diagrams


The following diagrams show the Moon's path through Earth's shadows (higher resolution versions of the above figure). The times of major stages of the eclipse are given for a number of time zones in North America. Please choose the diagram for your own time zone. Each diagram is a GIF file with a size of about 100k.



Some people may be puzzled that the Moon's motion is from west to east (right to left) in these diagrams, instead of its daily east to west (left to right) motion in the sky. However, the Moon actually moves WEST to EAST (right to left in the Northern Hemisphere) with respect to the Earth's shadow and the stars.





Times and Phases of the Total Lunar Eclipse of February 20/21, 2008


From start to finish, February's lunar eclipse lasts about three hours and twenty-six minutes (not including the penumbral phases which are very difficult to see). The partial eclipse begins as the Moon's eastern edge slowly moves into the Earth's umbral shadow. During the partial phases, it takes just over an hour for the Moon's orbital motion to carry it entirely within the Earth's dark umbra. The color and brightness of the totally eclipsed Moon can vary considerably from one eclipse to another. Dark eclipses are caused by volcanic gas and dust which filters and blocks much of the Sun's light from reaching the Moon. But since no major volcanic eruptions have taken place recently, the Moon will probably take on a vivid red or orange color during the total phase. After the total phase ends, it is once again followed by a partial eclipse as the Moon gradually leaves the umbral shadow.


The total phase of a lunar eclipse is called totality. At this time, the Moon is completely immersed within the Earth's dark umbral shadow. During the February 20 eclipse totality will last just under 50 minutes. This is quite a bit less than the last total lunar eclipse ( August 28, 2007) which lasted 90 minutes.


The major phases of the eclipse occur as follows (all times are GMT or Greenwich Mean Time). The partial eclipse commences with first umbral contact at 01:43 GMT. Totality begins at 03:01 GMT and lasts until 03:51 GMT. The partial phases end at 05:09 GMT. Eclipse times for time zones in the United States and Canada are shown in the following table.







































































Total Lunar Eclipse of February 20, 2008
North America Other
Event EST CST MST PST AST GMT GMT+1h GMT+2h
Partial Eclipse Begins: 08:43 pm 07:43 pm 06:43 pm 05:43 pm 04:43 pm 01:43 am* 02:43 am* 03:43 am*
Total Eclipse Begins: 10:01 pm 09:01 pm 08:01 pm 07:01 pm 06:01 pm 03:01 am* 04:01 am* 05:01 am*
Mid-Eclipse: 10:26 pm 09:26 pm 08:26 pm 07:26 pm 06:26 pm 03:26 am* 04:26 am* 05:26 am*
Total Eclipse Ends: 10:51 pm 09:51 pm 08:51 pm 07:51 pm 06:51 pm 03:51 am* 04:51 am* 05:51 am*
Partial Eclipse Ends: 12:09 am* 11:09 pm 10:09 pm 09:09 pm 08:09 pm 05:09 am* 06:09 am* 07:09 am*
* Event occurs on morning of February 21, 2008



























Key to Time Zones
Zone Description
EST Eastern Standard Time (GMT - 5 hours)
CST Central Standard Time (GMT - 6 hours)
MST Mountain Standard Time (GMT - 7 hours)
PST Pacific Standard Time (GMT - 8 hours)
AST Alaska Standard Time (GMT - 9 hours)
GMT Greenwich Mean Time

The table above provides times of the major eclipse phases for North American time zones and Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). Eclipse times for other time zones can be calculated by taking the difference between local time and Greenwich and adding it to the tabulated GMT times.


To determine the Moon's altitude at each stage of the eclipse as seen from your city or location, see Javascript Lunar Eclipse Explorer. This web page allows you to calculate the viewing circumstances of all lunar eclipses visible from your city over a five-thosuand year period.





Visibility of the Total Lunar Eclipse of February 20, 2008


February's lunar eclipse is well-placed for North and South America as well as Europe and Africa. Observers along North America's west coast miss the early stages of the partial eclipse because it begins before moon rise. Alaskans in Anchorage and Fairbanks experience moonrise during totality but bright evening twilight will make it difficult for sourdoughs to view the event. Western Europe and northwest Africa also see the entire eclipse. Further to the east (east Africa and central Asia), the Moon sets before the eclipse ends. None of the eclipse is visible from eastern Asia or Australia.


Preceeding and following the eclipse are hour-long penumbral phases but these are faint and quite difficult to see. The more interesting and photogenic partial and total phases always take center stage to the penumbral phases.



Eclipse


Map showing the global visibility of the Total Lunar Eclipse of February 21, 2008.
(Click here to see larger version of this map)





















Key to Eclipse Visibility Map
P1
Penumbral eclipse begins (not visible to the eye)
U1
Partial eclipse begins
U2
Total eclipse begins
U3
Total eclipse ends
U4
Partial eclipse ends
P4
Penumbral eclipse ends (not visible to the eye)

The map above shows the geographic regions of visibility for each phase of the eclipse. The entire eclipse is visible from start to finish in the white (unshaded) portion of the map, while none of the eclipse can be seen from the dark gray areas.


For anyone located in the blue shaded region labeled Eclipse at Moonset, this means that the Moon will set while some phase of the eclipse is already in progress. The contact curves labeled P1, U1, U2, U3, U4, and P4 represent each phase of the eclipse (see the key above). If you are east (right) of a particular curve, that phase occurs after moonset and you will not see it. However, if you are west (left) of a curve, that phase occurs before moonset and you will see it (weather permitting).


For example, on the above map Turkey lies west (left) of the U3 curve (total eclipse end) and east (right) of the curve U4 (partial eclipse ends). This means that from this region, the Moon sets during the partial phases following totality.


For observers located within the second blue shaded region labeled Eclipse at Moonrise, the situation is reversed. Here the Moon rises while some phase of the eclipse is already in progress. If you are west (left) of a particular curve (P1, U1, U2, U3, U4, or P4), that phase occurs before moonrise and you will not see it. However, if you are east (right) of a contact curve, that phase occurs after moonrise and you will see it (weather permitting).


All total eclipses start with a penumbral followed by a partial eclipse, and end with a partial followed by a penumbral eclipse (the total eclipse is sandwiched in the middle). Since the penumbral phases of the eclipse are so difficult to see, we will ignore them.







Wonderful Totality


At the instant of mid-totality (03:37 GMT), the Moon will lie in the zenith for observers in French Guiana. At this time, the umbral eclipse magnitude peaks at 1.1062.


From the diagram above, it is clear that the northern (top) edge of the Moon will dip much deeper into the Earth's shadow than will the southern (bottom) edge. Since the Earth's umbral shadow is darker in the center than at the edge, the Moon's appearance will likely change dramatically with time. A large variation in shadow brightness can be expected and observers are encouraged to estimate the Danjon value at different times during totality ( Danjon Brightness Scale). Note that it may also be necessary to assign different Danjon values to different portions of the Moon at different times.


This could be an excellent opportunity for budding astronomers and students to test their observing skills. Try recording your estimates of the Moon's brightness every ten minutes during totality using the Danjon Scale. Compare your results with your companions and classmates and discover how the Moon's appearance changes during the total eclipse. The brightness of the totally eclipsed Moon is very sensitive to the presence of volcanic dust in Earth's atmosphere. As part of a continuing research project, Dr. Richard Keen has been using reports of lunar eclipse brightnesses to calculate a history of optical thicknesses of volcanic dust layers (see: What Will 2004's Lunar Eclipses Look Like?). If you'd like to help Dr. Keen by making eclipse observations, you can contact him at Richard.Keen@Colorado.EDU.


The amount of dust and sulfur dioxide in Earth's atmosphere also has an effect on the diameter of the umbral shadow. Amateur astronomers with telescopes can make careful timings of when some of the Moon's major craters enter or exit the umbra. Such observations are valuable in determining the enlargement of Earth's shadow. A table of crater predictions identifies twenty well-defined craters useful for this purpose. For more information, see: Crater Timings During Lunar Eclipses.


An eclipse of the Moon also presents a tempting subject to photograph. Since the Moon appears quite small in the sky, you'll need a fairly powerful telephoto lens (400 mm or more) or even a small telescope to attach to your camera. A typical ISO 400 speed (either digital or film) is a good choice. For more information on equipment, film, recommended exposures and additional tips, see lunar eclipse photography.


Unlike solar eclipses, lunar eclipses are completely safe to watch. Protective filters are not necessary and neither is a telescope. A lunar eclipse can be observed with nothing more than the naked eye. However, a pair of binoculars will magnify the view and make the red coloration brighter and easier to see. A standard pair of 7x35 or 7x50 binoculars is sufficient.


During the eclipse, the Moon will be in Leo. Saturn and bright star Regulus are only 3 degrees east and west, respectively, of the Moon. Geminii, Orion, Taurus and other winter constellations will occupy the south and western sky for North American eclipse watchers. viewers.


Although total eclipses of the Moon are of limited scientific value, they are remarkably beautiful events which do not require expensive equipment. They help to cultivate interest in science and astronomy in children and to provide a unique learning opportunity for families, students and teachers. To the nature lover and naturalist, the lunar eclipse can be appreciated and celebrated as an event which vividly illustrates our place among the planets in the solar system. The three dimensional reality of our universe comes alive in a graceful celestial ballet as the Moon swings through the Earth's shadow. Hope for clear skies, dress warmly and enjoy the show!





Eclipse Frequency and Future Eclipses


During the five millennium period from 2000 BC through AD 3000, there are 7,718 eclipses[1] of the Moon (including both partial and total eclipses). From 0 to 3 lunar eclipses (partial or total) occur each year. The last time three total lunar eclipses occurred in one calendar year was in 1982. On average, partial eclipses slightly outnumber total eclipses by 7 to 6[2].

[1] Only eclipses where the Moon passes through Earth's umbral shadow are included in these values. A minor type of eclipse is the penumbral eclipse which occurs when the Moon passes through the Earth's faint penumbral shadow. Penumbral eclipses are rarely discernible to the naked eye and are of lesser importance than umbral eclipses.


[2] Penumbral eclipses are excluded from these statistics.


The last total lunar eclipse visible from the entire continental United States occurred on August 28, 2007. North Americans will have their next opportunity to see a total lunar eclipse on 2010 Dec 21.


The table below lists every lunar eclipse from 2007 through 2012. Click on the eclipse Date to see a map and diagram of an eclipse. Although penumbral lunar eclipses are included in this list, they are usually quite difficult to observe because of their subtlety. The penumbra is a partial shadow which still permits some direct sunlight to reach the Moon.


The Umbral Eclipse Magnitude is the fraction on the Moon's diameter immersed in the umbra at maximum eclipse. For values of 1.0 or greater, the eclipse is total. For negative values, the eclipse is penumbral. The Total Duration is the duration of the total phase (total eclipses only).



















































































































Lunar Eclipses: 2007 - 2012
Date Eclipse Type Saros Umbral Magnitude Eclipse Duration Geographic Region of Eclipse Visibility
2007 Mar 03 Total 123 1.238 03h42m
01h14m
Americas, Europe, Africa, Asia
2007 Aug 28 Total 128 1.481 03h33m
01h31m
e Asia, Aus., Pacific, Americas
2008 Feb 21 Total 133 1.111 03h26m
00h51m
c Pacific, Americas, Europe, Africa
2008 Aug 16 Partial 138 0.813 03h09m S. America, Europe, Africa, Asia, Aus.
2009 Feb 09 Penumbral 143 -0.083 - e Europe, Asia, Aus., Pacific, w N.A.
2009 Jul 07 Penumbral 110 -0.909 - Aus., Pacific, Americas
2009 Aug 06 Penumbral 148 -0.661 - Americas, Europe, Africa, w Asia
2009 Dec 31 Partial 115 0.082 01h02m Europe, Africa, Asia, Aus.
2010 Jun 26 Partial 120 0.542 02h44m e Asia, Aus., Pacific, w Americas
2010 Dec 21 Total 125 1.262 03h29m
01h13m
e Asia, Aus., Pacific, Americas, Europe
2011 Jun 15 Total 130 1.705 03h40m
01h41m
S.America, Europe, Africa, Asia, Aus.
2011 Dec 10 Total 135 1.110 03h33m
00h52m
Europe, e Africa, Asia, Aus., Pacific, N.A.
2012 Jun 04 Partial 140 0.376 02h08m Asia, Aus., Pacific, Americas
2012 Nov 28 Penumbral 145 -0.184 - Europe, e Africa, Asia, Aus., Pacific, N.A.

Geographic abreviations (used above): n = north, s = south, e = east, w = west, c = central





Web Resources






References



  • Espenak, F., 1989, Fifty Year Canon of Lunar Eclipses: 1986-2035, Sky Publishing Corp., Cambridge, MA.
  • Espenak, F., 2006, "Eclipses During 2007", Observer's Handbook - 2007, Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, Toronto, Ontario.




Reproduction of Eclipse Data


All eclipse calculations are by Fred Espenak, and he assumes full responsibility for their accuracy. Permission is freely granted to reproduce this data when accompanied by the following acknowledgment:


"Eclipse Predictions by Fred Espenak, NASA's GSFC"


For more information, see: NASA Copyright Information


   


Limbo. Great song, great game. Also,

The girls all line up and walk through a room as if they are modeling on the catwalk. Get a couple of bright colored boa's from the party store. It's a real riot and the kids have a blast especially if a couple of brave boys grab a boa and do it too.  We've had many a birthday party doing this and it was totally hilarious.


Wow!! What a great attitude! I love that - great perspective!
x
What great determination and help from a great friend! :) nm
s
I am sure that you are a great mother and a great cook,
and that you tried everything, now try the 'hunger diet'.
Great one! Thanks!! nm
nm
That's great!!
A great big congrats to your daughter! She is so fortunate to have such a supportive and helpful family!!
Did he say anything at all about how great a new job for you would be? I'd keep an eye on him as
s
Wow, that's great!

We had always said 3 and that's when we stopped.  They are all teenagers now.  Wouldn't change a thing either.


 


That was great.
I'm glad they did that. What fun. Not only was he thin, but his clothes were nice. No jump suit. I preferred his hair when it was his natural brown rather than the black dye job.
That's great - sm
I'm glad I don't need them anymore then! Also check with your state regarding laws about those things. For example, in Florida you are only allowed to borrow 500, in which case I would be weary of anyone offering more. Thanks for the tip - looks like you should be advising me!
Great, thanks!
I listen and take all ideas I can.
My mom did it and it looks great.
She did not fill in the cracks, and it looks great simply painted.


DS, he does a great job.
e
For her age, I don't think she looks great at all
isn't she around 20? She looks more like 30 and haggard half the time. Oh, and you too can have that body with the cocaine/alcohol-only diet! Get real!

She is such a piece of garbage. But they say her mother is too (was desperate for fame so pushed her daughter into the spotlight) and her dad as well (didn't he just get released from prison)?

Sad.
That's great! Another one sm
I haven't seen Chuck and Larry yet, but will definitely ignore the reviews and see it. I love good comedies.

Another one, if you haven't seen it, is the Wedding Crashers. I thought it was just supposed to be a silly romantic comedy, but my daughter and watched it on cable last weekend and I cannot remember the last time I laughed out loud, spewing drink laughing, in some time. See that movie.
I think it would be a great job (sm)
True they don't pay real high but you are at your kids school, no child care costs, good benefits, and summers off - sounds pretty good to me!!! They are hard to get where I live also though. Best wishes to you!
That was great. Thanks. (nm)
.
Great Job
There should be more people like you!
They have been a great help to me
in dealing with a similiar situation with a family member. Sometimes you hear things that you don't want to hear but the people in these groups have been in your shoes and they understand what you're going through like no one else.
I got to do this. It was great.
I contacted her because I was going to the 20-year reunion. I couldn't talk her into going, but I did get her to meet me for another trip back home.

There was plenty to talk about. It was great.
Have a great

weekend everybody


Thanks. Those were great! nm
nm
They are not that great...SM
They are great for a while, but then if the DVD player breaks, you are stuck with a TV with a broken DVD player and end up having the buy a whole new DVD player. If the TV breaks, you are stuck with a DVD player that you can't use because the TV part is broken. I would not recommend getting a TV/DVD player combo. I know many people who had had these problems with them. I would buy each component separate so that if one thing breaks, you only have to replace that.
That was great! Thanks. nm
!
Great tip! Thanks!
Thank you for that website. I'm going to check them out. Thanks to everyone for all of your informative posts on this subject. You have all be very, very helpful. I appreciate you!!
That's a great one!...sm

Rhinoceros where stomping out fires (the fire brigade)...We wore the tape out watching it so many times...I suppose it's on DVD by now. Thanks for reminding me of that one!  Cat


This is great!
This is the greatest thing I have seen in a long time. I just cannot stop laughing.  I know I will remember this one for as long as I live! Thank you so much for this holiday memory. MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. (I did not mean to yell, just consider it a loud voice LOL.)
The Others is GREAT!
I saw Rosemary's Baby but not the other ones. Thanks for the suggestions. I am going to get the Mothman Prophecies and THEM! on sale on the DVD club too. One really good and the other a classic. I love sci fi too and got my kids all into star trek. The Borg are the scariest but they love it and so do I. LOL.
LOL. That was great! Thanks, V8. nm
x
That's great. You should both be
xx
Hi, Kim, that would be great!
Yes, the Casino is one in the same. I've actually never been there if you can believe that. My in-laws go there a lot to gamble. I wish I was in Georgia. I hate snow! My parents live in Utica. Small world.
He is a great looking dog. I really
wished we could hear him talking there when he won.
You are a great mom!!
I understand what you are saying and do agree.  I became upset when I read statements such as "weird, sick, "it" - because you know as well as I, people still feel that way about gays.  I get so angry that people can be so heartless and cruel when it comes to lifestyles that they feel are not of the norm.  You are a great mom and your son is very lucky!!  For those who know that someone is gay and have not been told yet - my feeling is they will say something when they are comfortable with it themself.  Unfortunately, people are quick to judge how others should live and love - never considering that it does not matter as they are the same person no matter who they love.  To come out is a very frightening thing as there are those people you think would be okay with it and they go absolutely bonkers.  I commend those of you who are so accepting and nonjudgemental.  It still amazes me that this is 2008 and people still act as though gays should be "put away". 
great thanks!
that's what i use so i think i'll give it a try when i can get a line out. thanks!
I have one of those! That would be great! SM
I have a lot of great suggestions from everyone!  Thanks to all of you for your help. It can be a real problem and you have all really helped!  I bought a spaghetti lifter some years ago. 
Well, that's great for you, and that's your right...
but it is not your right to tell others what their priorities should be, especially when you have minimal insight into their life.
The www is great, except for the (sm)
impersonalization aspect.