I am so sick of this argument
Posted By: sbMT on 2009-02-11
In Reply to: Wrong, Tonto! - The Lone Ranger
All that clause means is that their will be no state sponsored religion - like saying everyone has to be Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic. It had nothing to do with taking God out of the white house or supreme court or anywhere else! The only reason that happened is because Christians just sat by and didn't say anything while everyone else whined about it and now it's too late to reverse all that because the mindset now is "oh we have to have separation of church and state!"
Of course as greedy and grimy as politicians are these days they probably feel better thinking that God doesn't pay attention to politics!
Here's some quotes from the founding fathers:
William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
Complete Discussion Below:  marks the location of current message within thread
The messages you are viewing
are archived/old.
To view latest messages and participate in discussions, select
the boards given in left menu
Other related messages found in our database
LOL No argument s/m
I'm neither Democrat or Republican, I usually call myself independent. I march to my own drum. I would have liked to have seen 2 different candidates than what we had. I would have liked to see a true Christ-like man, humble and honest in his/her campaign...i.e. the "Straight Talk Express" which McCain claimed to have and didn't.
I simply voted AGAINST the man who bragged that he had voted "with the president over 90% of the time, more than even his Republican colleagues." We certainly need change. I know I haven't fared so well under Bush. All is not lost for those who think Obama is a monster if he in fact turns out to be what he's been accused of being. . Remember Richard Nixon?
you win the argument
If you like Bush you are a rare person indeed. His approval rating is 26%.
So now is your time to shine because your guy is still in charge and you should enjoy it.
Yes, anything to make an argument...sm
No pun intended to reality check, but yes anything can turn into an argument. Yep.
Why don't you take your little argument over to the CON board.
You can con each other on the CON board. How's that?
So is posting the same argument.
I remind you that the monitor recently posted we could cross-post, as we have had liberals on the conservative board, as long as the posts were not bashing.
Wow, that's a good argument....
it is not a personal choice. There are two people involved, one of whom has NO choice. Not fair.
Is that your only argument for socialism?
My word....people are committing adultery on both sides of the fence, that will never change. What in the world does that have to do with socialism and socialists candidate?
But you have made your argument here FOR
You already know where Obama stands. He has said outright he will raise taxes to pay for more social programs. He wants to tell you how to get your healthcare. I agree we definitely need to do something about healthcare but then that could be easily done if the fat cats on capitol hill, including Obama, would stop insurance lobbyists and make it illegal for lobbying....period!!! They then would have to make it more affordable or they will not have a business to run in the first place.
I too would like to see our troops come home from Iraq but not give that money to Obama because it will be wasted faster than you can blink and on what? More socialist programs...
If you look deep into what Obama hasn't detailed in his healthcare plan, you will see that you WILL be paying DEEPLY for it. He has managed to waltz around the details of his plan, which include HUGE tax hikes to pay for that wonderful healthcare he wants to give you.
With the two candidates I am left to choose from, I choose a capitalist over a socialist any day. I'm about to believe Obama would sell his soul to the devil to get in that position.
Okay, that argument aside, here's a legitimate
What will be your thoughts, and more importantly - your ACTIONS - if the candidate of your choice doesn't win?
Where do you go from there?
Do you have a plan as to what you will do, or not do, or change, or flee, if your candidates lose the election?
I can see both sides of the argument
Yes, many people are getting threatened and businesses getting picketed for supporting Prop 8. You cannot deny that (what was the pink taliban or whatever that disrupted church service a month or so ago?)
But on the other hand, if they want these donations anonymous, than that means Obama and other politicians can make their donations anonymous, and I think it's the publics right to know who is financing the next leaders of the country.
I just find it interesting that the homosexuals are assaulting and threatening supporters of the Prop 8 for what they believe in when they themselves are asking for fair treatment for what they believe in.
You don't do your argument any good
by talking down to people. The point I gathered from the the Bloomberg article seems to state what many have said and that is that with all the spending the government has done and will continue to do, the government could have paid off almost all mortgages and settled what was touted as the root cause of all the problems, the subprime mess.
Bailouts don't work, handouts don't work, the free market does.
With one mistake after another, rookie Obama's decisions and policies demonstrate one thing only and that is his stimulus package is political payback instead of finding genuine solutions. The vagueness of his campaign speechmaking was the work of a hollow wordsmith after all.
"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
-Winston Churchill
That is a valid argument. Thank you
I heard that argument..(sm)
They're saying they'll have to raise taxes when the extended benefits run out. This doesn't make sense to me. If while they are receiving extended benefits they are creating jobs with the other aspects of the stimulus, wouldn't the total bill for unemployment go down?
Not a good argument...(sm)
I could just as easily say that if you believe in the sanctity of life so much, why are you willing to torture and kill others.
That argument won't work because most people who are pro-choice do not believe that life begins at conception.
Ah, the persecuted Christian argument. Please.............
That was the argument in 1960. We didn't buy it then and we are...sm
not buying it now almost 50 years later. Religion should have no part of politics any more than race, gender or anything else that has no bearing on whether a person can lead.
That whole "blood for oil" argument is garbage.
nm
An argument for redistribution of wealth
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm
FY 2007
Total tax revenues for FY 2007 are composed of:
1. Individual income tax 45%.
Included in individual income tax category are capital gains taxes, which make up between 4% and 7% of individual income tax revenues and between 2% and 3% of total tax revenues within this category.
2. Payroll taxes 35%
Social insurance (Social Security). Funds used to pay for Federal Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance, Unemployment Insurance, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, Medicare/Medicaid, State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI). Individual's share of this is 17.5%.
3. Corporate Income Tax 15%
4. Excise Tax 3%.
Essentially a consumer tax on alcohol, cigarettes and gas.
5. "Other" 2%
So, individuals' share of total tax revenues amounts to approximately 65.5%, employers 17.5% and corporations 15% plus the mysterious "other" of 2%.
If you go to the above link and scroll down about halfway, you will find a nifty little chart that shows how much the share corporations paid into total tax revenues has diminshed since 1950. For example, an early 50s spike on the graph show corporations' share to be approximately 30+%...TWICE AS MUCH AS IT IS NOW.
A couple of other points of interest:
http://www.sba.gov/ADVO/laws/statement07_0309.html
"…tax compliance costs employers with less than 20 employees a total of $1304 per employee as compared to employers with 500 or more employees which incur $780 per employee to comply with Federal taxes.(6) Put another way, small entities pay 40% more for tax compliance than employers with 500 or more employees.
http://www.cbpp.org/8-9-05bud.htm
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities – How Robust was 2001-2007 Economic Expansion? Figures 1 and 2 will indicate the following information:
Based on the 7 economic indicators, Bush years turned in below average growth percentages in every single indicator except for one….CORPORATE PROFITS. The biggest losers….employment (JOBS) and wages and salaries (PAYCHECKS). To make this dry economic data a little bit spicier, 2 comparisons have been shown…Bush years against Post WWII averages and Bush years as compared to the 90s decade. I have run averages on the trough and peak growth comparison data depicted in Figure 2 to come up with the following overall percentages. Pay special attention to the last 3 items.
1. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) down 31% from Post WWII average and down 12.85% from the 90s
2. Consumption down 23.45% from Post WWII average and down 6.25% from the 90s
3. Non-residential fixed investment down 40% from Post WWII average and down 58% from the 90s
4. Net worth down 16.25% from Post WWII average and down 20.1% from the 90s
5. Wages and salaries (PAYCHECKS) down a whopping 55.6% from Post WWII average and down an impressive 40.55% from the 90s
6. Employment (JOBS) down an amazing 68.65% from Post WWII average and down an impressive 46.65% from the 90s
7. Corporate profits up 200% above post WWII average and up 126% from the 90s.
From where I sit, there is clearly something wrong with this picture. I will be voting for the candidate who shares this view and plans to restore a more balanced, equitable and FAIR distribution of wealth. This is not about shifting bucks from one person to another. This is about corporations whose butts are being bailed out right and left by us Joe Shmoes shouldering more fiscal responsibility toward their shareholders AND toward John Q. Public.
Citizenship argument...another red herring on
Get over yourself.
The closing argument that lifts us up
what it really means to be an American. No amount of harsh rhetoric or divisive tactics can touch the hope I hold nor the joy I take in knowing that the country I love, which has lost so much of late, is still there, is on the mend and that better and brighter days are just around the bend.
Good argument for the 10% threshold. :) nm
nm
What kind of good solid argument is that?
All I saw was a good article assessing the state of our emergency readiness and the conservative comes back with nyah nyah, a guy got shot, hope you're happy.
Is that what anyone calls good solid argument?
I just knew some people would make this into an argument
I just thought it was pretty cool and on the lighter side. But...as usual, some people just want to argue.
Your argument does not hold a drop of water.
Number one. No they wouldn't...journalists are like lawyers...they don't rat out their sources. It is a question of professional integrity. Furthermore, the LA Times went into great detail to describe precisely what was on the video. No cigar on that media bias whining. This is what happens when campaigns declare war on the media, keep their VP pick on a short leash, avoid one-on-one interviews like the plaque and squeal out loud when the rogue goes off script. The media would not be having a field day if there weren't such an abundant pool of news stories being generated daily by this pathetically mismanaged and misguided camp.
Since when is the International REPUBLICAN Institute, chaired by McCain, the REBPULICAN presidential candidate apolitical? Explain this to me, please. The Center for PALESTINIAN Research and Study...apolitial? On what planet is the subject of Palestine apolitical? Seriously, can you point out any Palestinian living either in OCCUPIED Palestine or in the diapora who is NOT political. If it weren't political, there would have been no exchange of funds. Not at all the same as what...a little incoherent here.
The "meeting" was a farewell dinner for Khalidi held at a Palestinian community center in Chicago for this American born, Yale graduate, Oxford University Doctor of Philosophy, former professor and director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies and the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago, current professor at Columbia University. He is a member of the National Advisory Committee of the US INTERreligious Committee for Peace in the Middle East...a national organization of Jews, Christians and Muslims. He is also a member of the Board of Sponsors of the Palestine-Israel Journal, a publication founded by prominent Palestinian and ISRAELI journalists.
Radical Israel hater? Sam, this may come as a shock to you, but Palestinians take great pride in crossing cultures and religions for the sake of garnering peace in their war-torn country. You need help interpreting what Obama meant by "showing me my own personal bias." This is what occurs when people cross cultures, talk to one another, listen to points of view other than their own and start the process of coming to terms with the ethnocentric bias they carry around from their own cultures. I know exactly what he means. It is precisely the quality an effective foreign policy leader need to have to make effective diplomatic inroads. If you want to make something suspicious and subversive out of that....be my guest. In the absence of the tape, Sam, just how is it that you claim to know precisely what transpired during that farewell dinner?
Notably absence from you post is any direct comment on the fact that Chairman McCain's IRI funded the organization that Khalidi founded for 2 years in a row. If he is the Jew hater you suggest he is, then wouldn't that mean that once again, Chairman McCain had a vetting deficit?
Rabid rants will not support your argument.
with anything. Rememer the burden of proof thingy in the courts? Why do you think Berg the Boob is suing on grounds of "standing" and alleged "harm"...claims that thus far have been laughed out of court?
Another argument based on false premise.
underpinnings of our democracy? Here's a clue just for you. What is the function of the Supreme Court? Since when do the 3 branches of our govt NOT interpret the constitution? This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the ignorance you seem to feel compelled to display, and dern proudly, I might add.
Before you try to tell the rest of us how we should be thinking and such, perhaps you should be addressing your own severe afflictions, starting with your blind hatred.
Wow, that was a powerful, cogent, scholarly argument!..................nm
nm
The fire safety argument is a lot of hooey.
Is it more of a fire hazard just because more than 15 people meet on a regular basis than if someone has a single party for 30 people?
As long as you and the other wiccans are clothed and no open-burning laws are being broken (in a residential area, that would be a fire hazard) I would have no particular problem with your rituals. Depending on the time of day/night and loudness of chanting, it might constitute a disturbance of the peace, same as a loud barbecue party in the neighborhood. But with the basic concept of your meeting, no big deal.
sam, weak argument based on semantics, that reporter's
implication was all too clear, and just another stupid accusation in order to mislead yet more uneducated, misinformed voters.
I'm afraid my history lesson disqualifies your argument.
be a smartass and ask what has changed since his statement. I simply stated the obvious answer. What has changed is his MIND. If he didn't feel qualified, he would not have run. Evidently, 65,431,955 citizens agreed with this chane of heart. You cannot argue away the fact that GREAT presidents have held office with much less experience than Obama...and I look for him to be adding his name to that list of the BEST our country has to offer in short order.
Nope, never said I wasn't black, but I remember the argument you're talking about...sm
Nan, Military Brat and Bush supporter took me to task over whether or not I was black when I said *and who said I was black anyway* I'm trying to find this in archives.
But, what I can't stand is people having a preformed opinion about how I am going to think or should think since I'm black, that's why I don't post my race. Once I posted that I was African American that's when they started the *I thought you said you weren't black.* Which I have never denied my race. Sorry, but not true.
Hindsight is 20/20. The same argument could be made of North Korea if they decide to attack...sm
after Bush's 2nd term has ended.
Clinton and Bush definitely were opposites on foreign policy, but I think he did try - probably didn't do as much as he could. What Bush is doing with the war in Iraq though, I think is irresponsible as well.
sick?
It is YOU who is coming off as sick..in the soul and psyche..Check yourself..Look into yourself..You are the one who is sick..
not sick of it at all
Its fascinating and I look forward to developing News. It is so much more important than what the girls on the Hills are wearing or who is dating who. If I was sick of it, I just would not come to a politic board though.
I do not want anything more. Whatever. Just sick
of the whole thing. So frustrated. Not sure what to believe or who to trust. I have stated this before, I do not trust either of them. McCain or Obama. Neither of them know what they are doing. I want to hear facts about what they are going to do to help the ECONOMY. That is the most important thing right now, not who Obama knows, etc. etc. The whole campaign has gotten hateful and turning me OFF. It is just wonderful to hear McCain supporters yelling "Kill him" (meaning Obama) at his rallies. What a country. GEEZ
you are sick?
Well I am sick of every time a Christian even MENTIONS their belief, people just automatically ASSUME that someone is trying to shove religion down their throat. At the first mention of any ACCOUNTABILITY in this world, then all of a sudden I am a Bible thumping fanatic. I am sick of MY RIGHTS for freedom of religion and freedom of speech being trampled all over by atheists, Muslims and any body who thinks that Christianity is wrong. I have rights too and I am ALLOWED to say that homosexuality is a sin and so is murder and so is racism. I am ALLOWED to say OUT LOUD that gay marriages are againts God. And by the way, this country was FOUNDED on Christian principles with God in our constitution, in our pledge of allegiance, on our money, and then this country becomes so politically correct it is all taken out. That goes against MY RIGHTS. I am sick of hearing all the new age blah blah blah that states there is no God or god is in everyone crap. So if I have to listen to YOU then I guess you have to listen to ME.
That is sick, would never wish for that. However, the
nm
That's almost as sick as...(sm)
priests molesting little boys. The church operated w/o government regulations over this sort of thing for how long? -- Your post exemplifies the idea of christianity. -- Let's point a finger and induce guilt. Oh, and by the way, you might want to check on how those children who were put up for adoption are getting along. They don't all go to those nice, loving homes you talk about. A large majority grow up bouncing from foster parent to foster parent or in orphanages, halfway houses and the like. Yeah, their future looks bright. Geeez.
FOR THE SICK.....(sm)
I thought I would post this as a helpful hint for those of you who are being sickened by the celebration that is being covered on TV. I understand that this sickness has some very compelling side effects, such as making the affected post derogatory comments on message boards. It seems to have turned into an epidemic. Thankfully there are people like myself who are concerned for those of you with the sickness. I have studied it and have come to the scientific conclusion that there is only one definitive cure:
TURN OFF THE TV
How sick is this?
A philadelphia, PA abortion clinic is going to offer free abortions (murders) in "honor" of george tiller, the murdered abortionist. This country has become so depraved that we honor a killing by killing others (babies nonetheless; the most helpless in our society)!!!
What a sick bunch of people!
What's even more sick...(sm)
is that a right-wing anti-abortion group wants to buy Tiller's building and set up a memorial for Tiller's killer.
sick to death
And..in the midst of all this chaos, when IMHO, no one should feel like partying, vacationing..we should be worrying and doing whatever we can..but in the midst..where is Condoleezza? Why, on a two day vacation in NYC, taking in Spamalot, the broadway show..chuckling it up, while New Orleans burns and people die. A witness said people were shocked to see her enjoying herself at the theatre when parts of her country are descending into madness. Then she went to Ferragammo (spell?) and was buying shoes for a few thousand dollars. Someone walked up to her and started telling her off, about how could she party when America is in such pain. She called security over and had the woman evicted..such is how OUR SERVANTS act, like they are king and queen. I mean, come on, even if you couldnt care less about what is going down, show a little respect and stay home until this is under control..FEMA should have gotten planes and aid out the very next morning to the gulf region, Bush knew this was gonna be a bad storm..he could have had the planes loaded up and waiting for the next morning after the storm..but, as is usual with this administration, Bush and his cohorts wait until chaos, as in Iraq, and then he acts but then it is too late. Well, the other day I posted how one day the masses will have their backs up against the wall and American politicians will have to create programs and help them..I see a minor version of what I was posting about..and, like that song says..*when you aint got nothing, you got nothing to lose*. This is an extremely dire situation..If the people in the gulf region dont calm down and get things under control on their own, the police and other authorities will not be able to, unless they shoot them all..and that will put blood on their hands and Bush's hands for not acting fast enough to show these poor people, that the govt cares..I am sick to my stomach over the evolving situation.Bush's approval is at 46%, just wait it will be even lower next time a poll is taken..
Sick of it too, but the Democrats are no different. sm
Of the main candidates, our choices are a socialist, a Marxist, and a fascist. Which one do you think is not going to tax our eyeballs out, or force us further and further into a control grid? Obama sounds like the least harmful, but the only thing he is going to change is his mind. My vote goes to NOTA (none of the above).
Sick to death of it all.......
Is anyone else just really tired of this election and all the crap that goes along with it? I'm so sick and tired of political parties. I'm tired of the families of the candidates being targets. I'm tired of the mud flinging. I think I'm going to take a break from all the political hoopla.
do you ever get sick of seeing your own posts?
**** Edited by Moderator ****
I say what I think is sacred, you dont have to agree with me just as i dont have to agree with YOU. get over yourself!
I can understand you being sick of it....
but this crisis we find ourselves COULD have been avoided, and only the republicans have been trying to head it off. That is a fact. I confirmed every fact in that video. I did not take it at face value either. But you see that the Democrats, who own the responsibility, are saying "We had absolutely nothing to do with this and accept no responsibility." That kind of bald face lying, when I know better because they have them on video defending them for Pete's sake...that kind of calculated BS'ing of their own constituents...is beyond the pale. And if you look at some of these posts...people BELIEVE them. Even faced with irrefutable evidence...believe them and try to spin it. Amazing. I don't have a party horse in this race so it really does not matter to me...if the faces and facts in that video had pointed to Republicans I would be condemning them instead!
And then, to add insult to injury, they try to funnel 20% of any profits that may eventually come of this bailout to ACORN and a few other outfits who encouraged these lenders to make the bad loans. And the party faithful still stick by them.
Amazing! Just freaking amazing.
both make me sick
Ya know, I never was thrilled with Obama to begin with and I was not too thrilled with McCain during the primaries but I will admit he started to grow on me. Now with them both voting yes on this bailout bill, I'm literally sick. I agree SOMETHING needs to be done but one would think they could come up with something waaaayyy better than what they have. McCain has truly disappointed me.  No wonder people get so discouraged they stay away from the polls.
sick of hearing he was
only 8 years old when Ayers was making bombs. I was about 8 when Charles Manson and his goons killed Sharon Tate and others. I don't feel like sending old Charley a birthday card let alone sitting in his living room or jailcell in his case.As far as I am concerned Ayers should be in jail too!
If you are sick of it, then why don't you quit
going to get rich somehow with Obama in the White House. This stuff doesn't happen overnight.
Furthermore anyone with a 401K or stocks know that there is a downside. You don't always win... So who is looking for free money now? Oh the stock holders are?????? These are the same people that live the good life. Well too bad! You lose because you put your faith in the stock market... Oh well.. Do I feel pity? Nope. Not when there are people struggling just to make minimum wage.
I was born with no money in my hand and I'll die with no money in my hand. Makes no difference to me really.
Anyone with any sense knows "you can't take it with ya'." Savor the moment.
All of you republicans out there that think McCain is going to somehow turn this country around are in for a big shock when he gets in there. The joke is on him. He thinks this Palin person is going to get him in, and he's oh so wrong! I have to wonder if he really is demented. Really?????
You're Sick!
Get off my back. HATER!!!
I am sick and tired
of minorities forcing their beliefs on the majority. Someone said if you don't like sex, etc on TV in magazines or whatever, don't read them. I say if people don't like our Christianity, then don't listen to it or look at it.
|
