The unions are killing companies, though. That is

• Chrysler closing all 30 plants for 1 month. - Ford closing 10. GM filing for bankruptcy. nm
  • Maybe it isn't a crisis, just extortion and - gourdpainter
    • I'm so glad you put that 'cause s/m - Zville MT
      • This problem in automotive did not happen over night. - sm
        • I have to ask - gourdpainter
          • American made - sm
            • Actually, I agree, these companies - gourdpainter
              • It will take a long time to get out of this mess. - sm
  • union people will still get paid for doing nothing. - Big 3 need to restructure without govt
    • yes they do - ..
    • Yet another reason we need unions...nm - Just the big bad
  • One month -- (sm) - Just the big bad
    • And inject a healthy dose of reality of the consequences - sm
      • ADD time. The end of that sentence should be - sm
  • GM has NOT filed for bankruptcy.nm - nm
    • GM suspended work at Flint Plant and - sm
      • So? GM will "likely" file for bankruptcy, but - they have not yet, so that was not truthful.nm
  • Bush is busy writing his legacy. - nm
    • Legacy - Gimme A Break
      • Yes, they SHOULD be forced to filibuster. - Marmann
      • LOL...In addition to that...(sm) - Just the big bad
        • The unions are killing companies, though. That is - main reason Honda can survive and GM cant.nm
          • Okay then don't complain because offshoring has lowered your MT wages. n/m - gourdpainter
    • Totally unfair. Bush is the only one trying - to HELP them at this point.nm
      • Bush is the one that CAUSED this economic meltdown. - nm
        • Yes, Bush and Bush alone did this whole mess all my himself - Sheesh!
          • Bush = 6 years before Dems took - SM
        • Not exactly. Economy was doing great. Dems took - over Congress 2 years ago -then went bust.nm
          • How in the world - gourdpainter
            • you got Bush mixed up with Bill Clinton...it was....(sm) - ...
          • LOL. You really should keep closer track of - sm
        • Not completely true - Zville MT
          • Was bound to happen. People want loans they can - not pay for and they love the plastic credit cards
      • Not in time for Chrysler, its employees, downstream businesses - nm
      • Evidently he does not understand the gravity of the crisis. - ......
        • I dont think Obama has a clue either. This man of - "change" might as well hire the Clintons.nm
          • Obama would not be fiddling while Rome burns. - sm

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is negotiate bloated hourly pay rates and pension plans.  The car manufacturers, of course, agreed.  Couple that with executive pay and bonuses, the effect has been to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. 

I believe it was a triad, the unions, executives, and government meddling that has killed the auto industry.

Let's not leave out the government's part in this - long before the bailouts, government mandates and standards for manufacturing cars other than what people wish to buy.  And since the government could not ban SUVs and trucks (apparently what many consumer wanted and still want) it attacks them in a different way. 

We've all read claims that SUVs are 'responsible for highway deaths.'  Why?  Because the SUV driver walked away and the family of four driving a roller skate did not? Look for gas prices to go back up to four bucks and stay there. That will be to force us to drive tiny death trap cars.  People were actually buying them when gas prices were high, but sales dropped when the per-gallon price got back down to two dollars. 

Maybe there will also be some kind of tax based on vehicle size or weight, either on purchase, or to scoop more of us into the governmentm maw, a federal surtax when we reregister our current cars. 

to be something we would do on a country wide basis.  I mean...what is the point if you can't leave your state because other states don't accept them.  I meant this as a country wide thing.  If the whole country recognized civil unions with the same benefits as marriage kind of thing.  I guess I wasn't specific enough. 

As it goes, same sex marriage is only accepted in the states that allow it.  I mean...you have to live in those states to have the rights of marriage...right?  Please correct me if I'm wrong on that one because I really don't know. 

At first we were told the outsourcing was to cut labor costs.  Only after this campaign rhetoric took hold did the issue of taxes come up.  Now I ask you, if the reason for outsourcing is taxes, what the heck?  Didn't Bush CUT taxes.

It seems that American people have lost the reasoning side of their collective brains.  When I quit working a few months ago I was making LESS than I made in the 80s.  How is that possible?  The cost of medical care has not gone down.  The cost of medical insurance has not gone down.  I posted some time ago about a local hospital that laid off their most experienced nurses, not a few of them, ALL of them, and hired new graduate nurses to replace them at lesser wages.  What was that about?  They got away with it though.  Anything to increase the bottom line profit.

This is true in every industry.  They like to blame labor for everything.  Well, how the heck can you buy a $2+ loaf of bread and $5 gallon of milk on minimum wage, ya know?  Take gasoline for example.  Sure it has gone down the last days but is it back where it was when oil was what?  $86 a barrel or whatever?  No and it never will be.

So that car you drive.........how much do you think of the price tag is labor? 

These things are what really aggravates me.  People just can't seem to use reasoning power any more.  I'll give you an example:  After my husband lost his job in the CF fiasco, he drove for awhile for a friend who owns a trucking company.  I went with him on a trip.  He picked up a load of beef in Boonesville, AR, hauled it to Chicago, no problem.  Then they sent him somewhere in Ohio to pick up a load of vinegar to take to Florida.  Got to Ohio and I forget the reason but he couldn't pick up the vinegar. Then he was sent (empty) to Logan (?), Kentucky where he picked up 40,000 pounds of chocolate covered doughnuts which he delivered to Phoenix.  In Phoenix they told him that most of that load would be routed back to Atlanta.  Now what kind of sense does that make?  Taxes the problem?  I would say poor management is a bigger problem than taxes OR labor.

I'm sorry about your dad's experience.  People used to do things like that.  I recall my late father-in-law, worked for the fire department in Fort Worth and he said during the depression they did the same thing, worked less so the ones with less seniority could keep a job.  They all suffered but they suffered together and somehow they all made it as did your parents.

I am just horrified at the apparent digress of intelligence in this country.  It seems people believe anything the news media or anyone else tells them.  Seems they have totally lost the ability to reason and God forbid that anyone should think of anyone other than themself.

All that said, feel free to go ahead and believe that companies are outsourcing jobs because of labor costs or taxes.  The unionized workers, under Reagan, started taking wage concessions, that is taking a DECREASE in pay to keep jobs.  How did that work?  Don't believe I've heard of any of the victims of outsourcing even being offered a pay cut to keep the jobs in this country.  Certainly not the Rheem plant in Fort Smith that the other day laid off the last 600 workers.  They sent most of their production to Mexico a few years ago.  Fort Smith they say is dying because of outsourcing.  Their reason?  They say, it's "labor costs."  Well, then, how is it that people can't afford to pay their bills with all the excessive wages they're supposedly receiving. Obviously the next in vogue EXCUSE will be that taxes are lower in other countries.  B.S.!!!!!!!

Some union members are afraid to vote for better benefits or strike because management threatens to move, like the other posters stated.

Case in point: A small manufacturing shop. Union wanted higher wages or strike, and health care benefits to stay the same, both in cost and care. The union wanted a $.25 an hour raise. Owner said No. Union asked for $.15. Owner said no. Union said strike. Workers said no. They were afraid the owner would shut down and they had their jobs for 30 years.

The union steward fought for better benefits but when the workers voted against the better benefits, the company won. Two weeks later, the steward was laid off, along with a member of my family just because he was friends with the union steward. That was 3 years ago. The workers are still working for the same hourly rate this year. How's that for being fair?

I was a member of the Teamster's. When we went on strike for better wages back in the ྂs, he company threatened to move out.. We also wanted (women) equal pay for equal work because we did the same work the men did, but got paid $.25 an hour less.  They moved and 100 jobs were lost. So, you see, companies still have the upper hand, not unions. They only want your money anymore. They really don't care about the workers.

...and they look like such nice boys.....

Two husbands who were union workers.  One IBEW, one Teamster.  BOTH said there were workers who didn't carry their share of the work load...not much different than MTs who cherry pick for instance.

#1 IBEW husband said at the time or Reganomics, when Ronald Reagan, himself a card-carrying member of the actor's union, said he would break the unions, it would be the downfall of the American workers.. Regan succeeded in breaking the backs of the unions.   When union workers lost the ability to bargain, they had to start taking wage concessions......and guess what?  Union wages went down, so did non-union wages follow suit.  When union workers got better working conditions, better wages and better benefits, so did non-union workers.

#2 Teamster husband is a radical retired Teamster.  While he also complained that there were lazy workers who rode on the backs of the hard-workers, he also said that the union does not support such and more times than not the union would uphold the firing of such a person.  He has a Teamster retirement that is the envy of most people and he has retiree health care benefits even though we pay about $700 a month for that.  While he was working, his union dues were around $35 a month and that covered our insurance.   Teamster retirees today will not enjoy those benefits.

Do some research on the history of unions.  Might not hurt to watch the movie Norma Rae as well. 

I have never said I defend Hezbollah.  I don't defend Hezbollah.  They're terrorists, and they're horrible.

But blindly defending Israel, regardless of what they do, doesn't work for me either.  What is most disquieting to me is that you defend Israel's placement of landmines to kill innocent civilians, designed to go off at a later date when people least expect it?  Why don't you consider that terrorism, as well?

NM

That's first and foremost in his mind, and Americans can go to hell, as far as he's concerned.

He thinks the war is more important than anything, including funding of projects to prevent a hurricane from destroying vulnerables, including funding border patrols, including forcing Americans to go broke just because they want to stay warm in the winter.

I overheard a conversation last night in a store.  A woman was complaining of gas prices and said she didn't know if she'd be able to afford to heat her home this winter.  Another woman told her about Jessie Jackson and his visit to Chavez and Chavez' offer to help low-income Americans with heating fuel.

This woman (who reminded me very much of some of you who post here, always in attack mode) said she and her children would FREEZE before she'd take any welfare from a communist.  She then went on a tirade about the kind of people who receive welfare (not fit to print on a public forum like this).  I was shocked, and the first three things that popped in my mind were Jim Jones, David Koresh and PEOPLE LIKE YOU.

Is there any length you people WON'T go to to defend this idiot president who doesn't care enough about YOU to make gasoline and heating oil affordable? 

Not easy to watch, but if she's for this, then I'm against her.

https://secure.defenders.org/site/Donation2?idb=0&df_id=1547&1547.donation=form1&s_src=6JY08WDC4F&s_subsrc=6JY08WDC4F_EJI08D1web

if one of your most pressing concerns is that the large corporations are being abused by government, keep reading.  Have you seen news reports on the executives are given huge million dollar bonuses and pensions? A lot of them "earn" them by closing facilities, firing workers, destroying unions, downsizing or removing benefits from workers.  Our benefits go down; corporate execs compensation are sky-rocketing.  The history-making profit of the oil companies this quarter in the billions?  Do they still need more tax breaks?  Sorry, my sympathy and concern for the well-being of these corporations is minimal to none.

 But if you really want to protect the corporations, vote McCain!

do it again and again for the next 2 years because that is how long it is going to take car companies to make a good economy vehicle.  If government bails them out, next will come airlines and so on.  We do not have enough money to bail them out for the next 2 years.  Those companies BURN money each month. 

Do not get me wrong, I do want the American car companies bailed out.  I WILL ONLY OWN AMERICAN MADE CARS.  NEVER will buy a foreign made car so I can help the car companies stay in business.  Geesh, I am from Michigan, born and raised there for 18 years.  Most of my family is from Michigan on my mother and father's side.

If the car companies fold, we could have the Great Depression or close to it.  Shoot, Toyota and Honda, etc., could buy our car companies and now will be foreing made cars only.  It is a mess, chaos mess.  What I do know is most of my family in Michigan blame the American car companies.  My cousin just took early retirement from them 3 weeks before the US financial mess.  Thank God he did.  A 3 car companies had years to design and make cars better than Toyota, but did not.  Some of my family members blame the gas companies for jacking up the price of oil which is what started the car companies to have problems.  If only the oil companies did not raise it to 4.00, our 3 American car companies just might not be in the mess they are in.  So now my family believes it should be the OIL COMPANIES to bail them out since they started the mess with high gas prices.  Family actually do not want the government to bail out car companies because the costs will be from you, me, and the USA and will go on and for the next 2 years.  Family wants them to stop production, think about what to build next and then start building it.  The 3 car companies need to make what consumers want and need. 

It is a mess and horrible.  I personally do not want so many jobs to be lost.  It is such mixed feelings.  I just want new jobs created NOW.  Drill, drill, drill, and create new technology and start building and working by all of us coming together and creating new jobs and what we really need for these new jobs.  Hope this all makes sense, I am really tired from a long night of working.