My hand's up. I've lived in Palestine.
Posted By: sm on 2008-12-31
In Reply to: The ignorance on this board astounds me. - FeFiFo
Not Israel, Palestine. I first arrived in the region September 29, 1982 in Madaya, a village near the border of Syria and Lebanon. You may recall that was 16 days after the Sabra and Shatila Massacre. My husband was involved in the humanitarian aid efforts there.
In case you do not recall, let me remind you. In accordance with an internationally brokered peace deal, Palestinians had surrendered their weapons and were deported from Beirut, leaving their families under the protection of a peace keeping force. The Israeli army invaded Beirut, violating the peace treaty, and some 3000 defenseless Palestinian women and children were rounded up in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila and were systematically murdered in cold blood. Israel killed more than 30,000 civilians in Beirut in the 1982 invasion and a half million people were driven from their homes.
Tens of thousands of them landed in Madaya. I was there with my husband for 19 months and watched as they administered the programs to relocate those refugees. During that time, we traveled to Nablus, Ramallah and Rafah and spent about 3 months in each place.
So, no, this is not about being PC. Bleeding heart? YOU BET. FYI, I still lose sleep over what I saw there.
You must be very proud to have roots in the land where the rivers run red with the blood of Palestine.
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And my politics and faith are hand in hand. Plus I'm just answering her question.
x
The 2 issues you describe usually go hand-in-hand.
keep women out of power. The old 'barefoot-and-pregnant' story. As a feminist, I wouldn't vote for a candidate who was against EITHER issue. Being pro-choice has nothing to do with hating babies, etc. Pro-choice has to do with keeping a very personal, private choice just that: Personal & Private, between a woman and her doctor, and no-one else. If a woman hasn't any power over her OWN reproductive system, and whether or not the time is right (if ever) to bear a child, she certainly isn't going to be given much else to be in charge of, either.
The only reason this issue EVER became a hotbed political issue is that the religious fanatics in this country, who have been trying to control the reins of government, picked an issue that was certain to divide people. They took this choice out of the doctor's office and put it in the public eye so that the country could be divided, and in that way 'conquered'. Have to hand it to 'em, some of the campaign tactics, as repugnant as they are, have been pretty slick. Shows they've got some pretty fancy lawyers. The terrorist tactics (threatening, and even sometimes killing) docs who perform TABs; harrassing women entering family-planning clinics; and chasing some family planning clinics out of some towns.
There used to be a clinic a few blocks from my home, and every Friday this looney-tune and his whacked-out buddies would block park a truck with pictures of fetuses on it, and would block an entire sidewalk with their signs, fake babies (dolls), themselves, etc. I guess they think they're scaring people with their pictures & signs, but it only serves to infuriate them. In large part, the attempts to overthrow Roe vs Wade by the religious lunatics of the world is one of the main reasons I stopped voting Republican after Ronald Reagan, and voted Democratic instead.
And then of course there is the issue of our jobs. When that all started going down the toilet (or shall I say - to the Third World) I realized the 'trickle-down effect' I'd been led to believe when I was a Republican in the past was a lie. It doesn't trickle DOWN, the money only gushes UP -- to the ones who already have the most of it.
politics and religion go hand in hand...
Whether or not we like it, many of our laws are governed by religion. Without some sort of religion, who is to say that murder is "wrong," thus making it a religious argument, not a political one (by your methodology) and, yet, we still have a law against it.
Who were the 'original' inhabitants of Palestine
and who took the land away from whom?'
If I follow HISTORY, it was the Jews who took the land away from the Palestilnians in 1948 and made a further attack on Arab land in 1967.
What you call 'stirring up this conflict' is the constant attempt of the Palestinians wanting their land back.
Historical documentation:
Gaza, a tiny landstrip along the Mediterranean sea, was 'given' to the Palestinians.
Last year Israel attacked Gaza, making it a massacre, killing and injuring thousands and thousands of Palestinians.
This all History, not Propaganda.
If you are looking to point fingers --- Palestine was under the control
of the United Kingdom in the early 20th century who made conflicting promises to both sides of the dispute and then turned the whole mess over to the U.N. in 1947. Then the U.N. then put their stamp of approval on a two-state resolution to the conflict which the palestinians rejected and then attacked the Israelis. They lost. It is as simple as that. They lost and then when other Arab nations decided to invade Israel (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon) they lost too.
Even under occupation, Palestine hold democratic elections,
as do Turkey and Lebanon, and those countries do not occupy any other populations.
Obama has other things to worry about: North Korea! Israel:Palestine etc...
Why are you so interested to know WHO visits the White House in top secret meetings?
This is not what Obama meant when he said...'I will open the White House...!
I have seen some bullying get out of hand first hand
during the same grocery strikes that I referred to in the very small town where I grew up. Scabs were beat up and such. I am not saying it's the norm, but there can be tremendous pressure to vote one way or another--as can be seen right here.
I have lived through this,
3 times. First the communists were coming to get us. We had to fight communism everywhere because they were going to take us all and make us reds. They could be here at any time. I remember safe shelter signs on buildings and personal bomb shelters and dictators claiming they would kill all our grandchildren. Nothing much happened. The second was Vietnam. Same thing, different year. We had to protect the world from communism again. We needed to fight them over there instead of over here.They were going to be on the beaches of California in a New York minute if we did not see this thing through. We got the same deal in 73 that we had on the table in 69 but because of arrogance, hubris, fear of the word failure, about 28,000 more soldiers died during that 4-year stint. We did not get anything more for the time, they died and nothing happened. Now its the terrorists. They can have a nuclear weapon here in 45 minutes. Saddam was in on 9/11. Blah, blah, blah. Conservatives have condemned this. I would hardly call Baker a liberal. Generals, people who actually know something about the geopolitics of the area, real Arab people, scholars, think its over and a done deal. I am not alone in this and you cannot blame the liberals for it either. The decider-in-chief apparently does not listen to anyone, especially not those of us on the left. I have been surprised he does not listen to those on his side. I still believe it was a mistake from the get go and I think we should leave yesterday.
About the crusades. Perhaps because you were not raised Catholic (assumption) you do not know how the crusades have been USED to justify, rationalize or discredit Catholics and those very same crusaders, fact or no. The crusades have been USED as a great Catholic basher for years. We heard it a lot then, still do.
I really don't know why you come to the liberal board and say the things you do. My head is not in the sand. I know all the facts you do about the **islamofacists** (one of the silliest words I think I have ever heard). I see things differently and your belittling me will not change anything ever.
Obama has lived an
exlemplary moral life. Only dirt anyone can sling is about other people whose paths he has crossed. Whoopie. John McCain an old, worn out horn dog who wants to be seen as a happily married church goer.
I have lived in different places and I have never...
experienced that kind of wait times. But I suppose there are all sorts of different experiences. What I do know is that research, great medical schools, etc., become nonexistent. We train most of the world's doctors here now. That will change under socialized medicine. Quality of care will go down. And if you don't pay for it in a premium you will pay for it in taxes. Obama cannot tax the "rich" enough to pay for it all. It is just not possible. And if he keeps taxing them, more jobs are going overseas, more businesses going overseas...if health care is so great other places, why do people come HERE for the "best" care? Oh well...there is no use beating my head against a brick wall. You will not know what I am talking about until you are in it...unfortunately for all of us...it will then be too late.
Sorry about Scottsdale, I have lived
and sorry if I offended you. My family still live in Scottsdale and Cave Creek. My dad lives in Troon North. We used to live at 64th and Thunderbird Road and the last 12 years lived near Desert Ridge/Mayo Hospital. Thank goodness we moved away. We had enough of the change, heat, and the people. Compared to where we live now, it is sooo much more nicer here and people much more friendly and courteous. Tired of trying to keep up with the Jones in Arizona. I liked Arizona 20 years ago, but now you can have it.
Sorry, I lived there for 28 years.
call it Snotsdale. Out of habit. By the way, you know the Kierland Commons where the Cheesecake Factory is? Scottsdale Road and Greenway Road. There is the hotel there, homes, and golf course. Well that is where the Scottsdale Dump used to be. Years ago, it was a desert and no one at Horizon High School would dare drive in that desert area or party out in the desert because of fear of toxic waste and now they built expensive homes, apartments, restaurants, shops and a golf course on the old Scottsdale Dump.
You must have lived in Atlanta in the 30s
because I live inside the perimeter and never, ever have I seen such as you talk about. Back when MLK was killed, waited in line like everyone else- no one got out of line to let me go first. Why do you tell such things when it is not true at all. The people here live and work alongside each other and thank goodness we have really been spared much of what has gone on in years past in other towns. Remember our motto- the city too busy to hate?
Actually, I lived in Augusta
But visiting Atlanta in 2006 and witnessed this.
His father lived with him...
And he felt different feelings than just wanting a male friend. He struggled with it from age 8 to 16 and finally came out. He is 19 years old and openly gay now and was a VIRGIN by the way the last I heard, yep he has relationships with guys with no "sodomizing" involved, amazing huh, that it can be about something other than sex. God forbid it just be that he actually has FEELINGS for the same sex.
Yes I do believe someone lived 800 years
Humans were not intended to die. Don't you get that? When God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they were not meant to die. Sin is the reason we die. Sin corrupted the earth, and the people in it. That is where we get disease, famine, sickness, etc etc.
I don't have time to find the verses right now but either further in Genesis or one of the other first few books it talks about God shortening the life span because humans became corrupted and evil.
Evolution is just a theory. It has NEVER been proven.
You find it more reasonable to believe that we came from muck and a lightening bolt rather than that our Almighty God created us?
Do me a favor. Find an object in your house and smash it to a million pieces. Your remote for example. Now put it in a bag and shake it for a few minutes. Dump it out. Do you have a remote? No. You still have a bunch of junk. That's because someone had to CREATE that remote.
Evolution tells us that a bunch of rocks bounced around together, something exploded, and BAM there was life! Have you ever seen an explosion CREATE something?
And it does seem that all you want to do is prove that Christianity is a lie, since you would not discuss any further after someone gave you a reasonable answer:
"No, I will not discuss it further, not on this board and not on the Faith board.
The discussion stops right here."
So obviously you weren't concerned about having a conversation, you just wanted to state your opinions without any reasonable discussion.
Also, if we evolved from evolution, how did the first creature reproduce?
When I lived in town
I lived across the street from the girl scout leader that I mentioned. Do you think I was inconvenienced by the amount of vehicles there EVERY WEEK? You bet. Did the police come by and stop the little girls from meeting? No. And they never will, because no one feels threatened by the girl scouts.
I can't believe you are so vehemently denying what this is. You know dang well that if it was any other "not-for-profit" group, they would be left alone. For now.
You are saying along the same lines that if your daughter wanted to have a study group every week at her home with fifteen of her friends that you would go out and get a license for her to do so?
Have you ever lived in police state?
Because if you had you'd definitely be able to see the VAST difference between a police state and the American state.
Also, your one-world government theory about the Bush's doesn't sync with your view that Bush is alienating the rest of the world, but I guess you think because Bush wants democracy for the world he somehow is planning to take over the world.
Wow, you are very steeped in conspiracy theory I'll give you that.
I actually saw a leprechaun when I lived in Ireland.
I was on the moors about 10 kilometres from Kilkenny, and there he was, at the opening of a burrow next to a large stone. He was only there for a wee bit of time, and then he vanished into the bracken.
I lived in Israel for many years
and what has happened has more to do with the upcoming election in Israel than with the US. Check it out.
His Indonesian father adopted him who lived ONLY
nm
You lived in a town of 5000 people
know who you dated? Or did you just think they didn't know? LOL
Dubai is lovely. I lived there. I have no idea what you are talking about! sm
When were you there? It had to have been a long long time ago because you are not describing the Dubai I know!
My apology,..didn't realize you lived in Sweden...nm
nm
I read on the link I posted that he lived in the building -
it said he lived there and had every right to be there. I am not sure where it is.
Then Again, how many would have lived and suffered atrocities if Hitler's mom had had an abortion
I am not trying to be flip or funny here, because it is not, but I do not think we can use that particular logic...just say that ALL life is precious, whether a baby grows up to be Einstein, Ghandi, or Charles Manson, it either must ALL be in God's hands because He is Creator of All, or there is no logic. Just wonder how everyone feels about the ultimate sanctity of life when it comes to capital punishment....
Don't get me wrong, I amy be a Democrate, but I am moderate and I DO believe, in instances such as the rape/murder/brulity of children, serial killers, etc, that putting a monster like this to sleep, as you would a rabid animal who will kill and destroy otherwise, is the best thing we can do for our sick society, not perfectly okay, but the best that can be done to protect others. But whenever I see this particular reason NOT to abort, it makes it sound as though if a child were retarded or slow, or even a sociopath (not a psychopath), it would be okay, PLAYING GOD IS PLAYING GOD in either case. IMHO
Adam lived ,after he produced Seth , for 800 years? What's that supposed to mean?
I am not bashing ANYBODY and ANYTHING, I just only expect the Bible to say the TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH and not being a FAIRY TALE.
Isn't it all about creation theory versus evolution theory?
The evolution theory explains in a very believable way all of God's miracles as natural happenings.
Even your answer to my question: 'Whom did Cain marry and produce children with?' takes the explanation and defence from the evolution theory, I quote your explanation:
..' and yes. Cain married and reproduced with one of his sisters. At that time, incest would not have been an issue, as DNA and blood was pure, and the risk of disease and complications or birth defects was zero.'
This is the justification by the evolution theory. What about the creation theory? Brother sleeping with sister?
I want to emphasize that it was YOU who started with the bashing in this your post:
'But it sounds to me like you are just one of those that just wants to bash, with no real search for the truth at all, so thanks for not wasting anymore of my time.
And yeah, Christians can be snippy too, sometimes.'
(BTW, I filled in some commas).
I cannot believe this. It seems that YOU are the intolerant one.
You also believe that somebody can live 8OO years?!?
I am Roman Catholic and I believe in God.
Adam lived ,after he produced Seth , for 800 years? What's that supposed to mean?
I am not bashing ANYBODY and ANYTHING, I just only expect the Bible to say the TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH and not being a FAIRY TALE.
Isn't it all about creation theory versus evolution theory?
The evolution theory explains in a very believable way all of God's miracles as natural happenings.
Even your answer to my question: 'Whom did Cain marry and produce children with?' takes the explanation and defence from the evolution theory, I quote your explanation:
..' and yes. Cain married and reproduced with one of his sisters. At that time, incest would not have been an issue, as DNA and blood was pure, and the risk of disease and complications or birth defects was zero.'
This is the justification by the evolution theory. What about the creation theory? Brother sleeping with sister?
I want to emphasize that it was YOU who started with the bashing in this your post:
'But it sounds to me like you are just one of those that just wants to bash, with no real search for the truth at all, so thanks for not wasting anymore of my time.
And yeah, Christians can be snippy too, sometimes.'
(BTW, I filled in some commas).
I cannot believe this. It seems that YOU are the intolerant one.
You also believe that somebody can live 8OO years?!?
I am Roman Catholic and I believe in God.
Adam lived ,after he produced Seth , for 800 years? What's that supposed to mean?
I am not bashing ANYBODY and ANYTHING, I just only expect the Bible to say the TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH and not being a FAIRY TALE.
Isn't it all about creation theory versus evolution theory?
The evolution theory explains in a very believable way all of God's miracles as natural happenings.
Even your answer to my question: 'Whom did Cain marry and produce children with?' takes the explanation and defence from the evolution theory, I quote your explanation:
..' and yes. Cain married and reproduced with one of his sisters. At that time, incest would not have been an issue, as DNA and blood was pure, and the risk of disease and complications or birth defects was zero.'
This is the justification by the evolution theory. What about the creation theory? Brother sleeping with sister?
I want to emphasize that it was YOU who started with the bashing in this your post:
'But it sounds to me like you are just one of those that just wants to bash, with no real search for the truth at all, so thanks for not wasting anymore of my time.
And yeah, Christians can be snippy too, sometimes.'
(BTW, I filled in some commas).
I cannot believe this. It seems that YOU are the intolerant one.
You also believe that somebody can live 8OO years?!?
I am Roman Catholic and I believe in God.
hand ups?
On a prior post, I dont know which conservative one of them posted to me that democrats only give hand outs, republicans give hand ups. I asked her to post what hand ups republicans ever have given to the poor and disadvantaged and all I got was a tirade about democrats promoting welfare, etc..the usual baloney from republicans..I still would like the poster to give me a few examples of what ever have republicans done to help the poor of America.
On the other hand....
Since all you guys couldn't see any big deal with Clinton's lying, you should'nt be losing too much sleep over this.
on the other hand
if a teacher was teaching a geography class and was teaching say on Israel. If he/she brought up say the name, Jesus Christ, and gave his opinion about Christ (let's assume the teacher is pro Jesus Christ) then I think his head would have rolled. He wouldn't be on leave. He would be fired immediately.
I heard the excerpts of this tape and the guy was off the deep end and basically giving a political diatribe. If a teacher cannot talk about religion and reiterate their beliefs I think the same should go for politics. Heck, I took three different POLITICAL science classes between the time I went to high school and graduated college, and all those teachers managed not to go off on a diatribe about a particular politician or a political group. As a class we did discuss the differences, but the teachers remained professionally neutral. I think a geography teacher should be professional and objective enough to teach geography without calling someone Hitler.
The darned thing about free speech is that it needs to be applied to everyone not just the viewpoints that one particular group agrees with. I have no problem with free speech as long as the opposite viewpoint is welcomed too. This does not seem to be happening in public schools. It seems one particular political viewpoint wants to hold a monopoly on free speech, and monopolozing free speech is basically nullifying it.
On the other hand.......
There are people who consider themselves homosexuals but because THEY believe it is wrong to act upon those feelings, they and only they choose not to participate in homosexual acts. Why is that?
then she should sue for $1, another lib with hand out....nm
//
That's not God's hand,....(sm)
that's US money.
On the Other Hand
The Republicans specifically slashed $40 billion in direct aid to states from this bill, states that are already reeling from budget shortfalls. This means huge cutbacks in essential state services like police, firefighters, teachers, and state hospitals and massive state layoffs in all areas. This will result in the loss of about 500,000 jobs as a consequence of slashing direct aid to states.
There was absolutely no reason to deny this aid to states except for Senate Republicans deciding they had to cut something, so this was it. They have no coherent approach to the stimulus package except that they don't like spending of any kind, and they've built up the least effective parts of the bill at the expense of the most effective parts.
Our house is on fire!!! And one factor of the fire department thinks the best way to put out the fire is with fewer firefighters and tax cuts, and they want to study the fire some more.
on the other hand...
We have gotten weekly checks regularly for 3 years (not enough to do anything with, but some grocery money) and all his medical expenses have been paid. However, we are now looking at not having any more medical care for the next 15 years because they refuse to do the knee replacement he needs until he is 45 years old. Also, the WC weekly checks are only there for 7 years total. After that, they owe you nothing. Plus, once you go back to work, the WC is hard to get to pay because they try to claim that you "reinjured" yourself on your new job.
We have a very good doctor that we use, he is just limited to the treatments he can offer.
Now, we will just have to let our private health insurance start picking up the payments for anything done.
On the other hand
Does this mean the affected couples can use this as a tax deduction since requiring a permit for the scheduled gatherings would put them into the 'business' category?
It would be well worth checking into.
Fight fire with fire...
You might be right, on the other hand. (see inside)
hand ups?? Where?? When?? In your dreams.
You mean like hand ups into the noose of a rope? Hand ups into the rope tied behind a car to drag a poor unfortunate Black man? Hand ups with a full five fingers and then put the other ones down and only leave the middle one standing? Where, where have republicans given a hand up to the poor and unfortunate in America? It has always been the democrats who have devised programs to help unfortunates..and yet when republicans fall on hard times they will use the democratic programs. I have a friend who is solid republican and we decided years ago not to talk politics, to save our friendship. Yet, when she got pregnant and had no one to turn to, as she was unmarried and her family was not nearby..what did she do? Applied for Welfare, Medicare, you name it..The government paid for her pregnancy and surgery and has continued to pay for health care for her daughter..Yet, she is one who always would nag me and rag me about being democrat/liberal..Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites.
The upper hand? TI
17 plus Arab nations and Israel. Yes. That makes sense.
2 first hand experiences
1) In London, many many years ago when my then husband was a chemical engineer working in the Middle East (we were on vacation in London) I became sick and a friend took me to a clinic. I saw a doctor, had tests, 1 xray, got medications and walked out. I kept asking "where do I pay, who do I pay?" and they said, it is free and I was not even a British citizen.
2) As far as insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies go...there is the crux of the problem. When we moved here to Tennessee, I went all over the place trying to get some assistance with my medication bills which had cost me close to $500 per month in Florida. I was not poor enough to qualify for any supplementals, and could not afford $500 a month (I had cut down to the 3 meds I really needed in Florida and just did without the other 2). Anyway, eventually, due to East Tennessee being a poor part of the state and people going without here a lot, certain pharmacies have cut almost all their overhead and have the least expensive of all medications. These are small "mom and pop" places, completely legal and above board, in fact, most are across the street from hospitals for convenience. What once cost me $500 for all 5 RXs now costs me $68. What does that tell you about pharmaceutical companies. I have a hard time believing the insurance companies are any better. Quite a profit margin I would say.
I have seen the stories about people going to India. They say the cost of flying, medical attention and aftercare is still less than it is here and that they can see a doctor of their choosing at a hospital of their choosing. It was on 20/20 or 60 minutes.
Thanks for the hand across the aisle GT...
and please keep your moniker if you wish...it does fit your life experience. I will remain sam. And yes, I believe we are big enough to put this behind us and start new. Neither of us are wrong...we are just very different...that doesn't mean we can't discuss and try to understand one another. I do look forward to lively discussions...I wish you the best in your job search, hope you find a really great one.
Looking forward to your return!
Thanks for that hand across the aisle...
and you hit the nail on the head. We are different, but we can find common ground and be civil. I look forward to visiting with you in the future about all the issues. Good evening to ya!
Thx - the attacks are really getting out of hand
Reminds me of that line in the movie where the guy says "I'm mad as he!! and I'm not going to take it anymore". Really though, I've read back through all the posts and not one post about something positive about Obama's plans. Just attacks to the other side and other posters. I feel if I'm going to get this I might as well just turn on MSNBC, and now I get my MIL who has such hatred for Bush is coming out saying that today market failure (whatever you call it- that 300 or so point drop) she's saying that is McCain and Palin' fault. I don't even get into political arguments with her anymore. It's just mind numbing how closed their minds are. Glad you liked my post.
Sure and the pubs had no hand in it at all.
Maybe if the pubs weren't so against regulating it may have been averted too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/politics/22mccain.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=politics&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1222092873-DDzUm2VKJMYWutTohJrNDQ
You want to know about |AIG first hand? I live in...sm
Stowe Vermont. The Stowe ski resort was built as a pet project many years ago by AIG. It was very low key for many, many years for many reasons, zoning etc. So lovely and pristine, no high rise condos, a quaint small town Vermont experience. A few years ago, after years of wrangling, permits were obtained for a huge VERY luxury hotel, ski base lodge, million plus dollar condos, high end shopping in a ski village etc. Fast forward a few years, the hotel is completed and the base lodge almost done, condos halfway complete, no village yet. I guess that technically we Americans now own 80% of this resort. Maybe I can get a subsidized ski pass? I haven't heard of any slow down with the development, but I could be wrong. I wonder if we will be sold off but I doubt it. Very interesting. No one has any idea of the excesses of corporate America over the last 50 years.
You sure do hand her credit for ...
having a lot of power. I like Palin, but I don't believe that she has the power to "almost single handedly divide the country." Perhaps she is a better leader than I thought...
Then fairness should go on the other hand
Just skip over the posts you don't like.
First hand knowledge..........sm
My pastor received one of these letters just prior to the election.
Theory proven. End of research.
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