I agree and I put a post about it above.

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possible to have an intelligent debate by both sides, but maybe just not on these particular boards unless you can just learn to sift through the posts that are less than informative.

Some of us came from another board, and there are a couple of posters from the other board who simply cannot tolerate views that are different from their own. If they can't debate without resorting to personal attacks and have even "adjusted" the facts on occasion to fit their particular need to prove a point about how bad liberals are.

They attack in groups reminiscent of hornets, and then they routinely whine and complain to the administrator, stomping their feet like 2-year-olds, and their targets are either banned or messages like the one today from the administrator appear.

If we all stay on our own boards, of course, there's not much opportunity for debate because we all come from the general same place. I saw an excellent post on the Conservative board by someone who intelligently set forth her views, without any personal swipes and/or attacks, without passing any judgment on anyone. I didn't agree with some the poster's views, but I did compliment her on the excellent way in which she portrayed them. I haven't seen any posts from her since, and even though I don't agree with her, I would love to see some more of her posts because I learned something from it. That particular poster definitely gained my respect. I hope the few who don't command much respect didn't chase her away. I noticed that none of them even bothered to acknowledge her post, and she seemed to be just as conservative as they were. People with thoughtful, intelligent posts like hers, unfortunately, are few and far between and are overrun by the negative juvenile ones, as I'm sure you can see just from visiting both boards. I hope she reads this post and decides to visit this board.

This is our country, and a lot of us think it's in a huge mess. Whether we're Conservatives or Liberals or somewhere in between, it's up to us to each think independently and speak for ourselves, even in a forum such as this, and to question what we perceive as right/wrong, explain it in an intelligent, coherent, truthful manner, and debate it in a healthy, nonjudgmental way. If we can't even do that on the most basic of forums like this, we might be in deeper trouble than any of us could have thought.

What would be the harm in teaching creationalism in school? Just as most apparently see no harm in teaching evolution. Teach them both, let the kids decide what they believe.

My personal belief is creationalism, but this is not the issue of my post, I just don't see what the harm is in teaching both sides and letting the kids decide for themselves, after having all the facts...

Other than this, I agree 100% with your post, including the part about the pregnant daughter. I feel more comfortable knowing that Palin is facing the same issues *real* people face every day. She and Senator McCain most definitely have my vote!

It's not all his fault that this country is the way it is. Although I wished he could have done a better job, he did the best he could with all the people that were against him.

I listened to a speech he made from the heart a few months ago and he came through very truthful and caring. It was not one of the stupid speeches for him that makes him look dumb.

I wish this stupid partisan politics would be banned but, of course, it won't. As long as the house and senate continue to fight among themselves and against the president (and I don't care who the president is), we are still going to be in a mess.

As long as the media keeps taking sides, we will only ever see the bad of the party they don't like.

As long as people don't research to try to find their own solution on whom to vote for, they will pick a president that is their own party.

A phone call to Doug Dougan yesterday by a lady stated that all her Jewish friends were voting for Obama because they didn't care for McCain. That is the stupidest reason to vote for a candidate. They don't care about the issues, just that they don't like McCain. If other people feel like this, then heaven help us. We'll have to do quite a bit of praying Nov. 4.

McCain is coming to our area on Monday. I called to get tickets yesterday and they were gone already! That's how much people around here care to listen to the issues. Did the O or Biden come here? Nope. Doubt that they will. The last presidential candidate that came to this area was JFK in his first run for president.

Parents don't know how to parent today. My grandson, who just turned 1 is already taking hissy fits if he doesn't get his way; i.e., wants to be held by only mom and dad, wants to get into things that he shouldn't, etc. What do they do? Coax and cajole. No time outs for the fits and of course, grandparents don't know what they're talking about when suggesting things to do.My DIL is mad at me cause I opened my mouth and said "no" to the baby.

I fear more for my grandson's generation than I do my son's, and I also have 2 GC's old enough to vote. Don't know for who but I can guess..

In reply to the Clinton�s had nothing to do with the last 8 years. This is absolutely correct, but the Clinton administration was just as bad before that. The Clinton years were the worst of my adult life (and my friends and family who are staunch democrats). So we�ve actually had 16 years of garbage for Presidents (20 if you consider Bush Sr.). Government grew and paychecks shrunk. Promises broken, tax increases (with the Clinton administration). The Clintons did nothing for the middle income people. Their �1% wealthiest� friends continued to receive more benefits. Our families friends were losing their houses and had to go back to living with their parents as they could no longer afford to live anymore. I think a lot of people forget the following:

Receiving money funded from china (treasonous tradeoffs I think it was called) for his re-election

Bill & Hillary stating they never heard of people (criminals who gave them money) when indeed they have pictures.

Hillary�s financial and other records sealed so nobody would find out the stuff she did (why?)

Hillary pulls Bill off of D. Morris as Bill is getting ready to punch him in the face yelling at him �Bill, think about what your doing�. Then walked around telling D. not to say anything to anyone.

They destroyed and stole white house furniture and artifacts on their way out. Urinated on carpets, walls, etc. It was a real mess to clean up.

And those are only a few of the highlights of the Clinton administration. She wants to take credit for anything good that happened, then she better take credit for the bad too. Especially when she was running the show while Billy was off with his girlfriends.

They are both a couple of criminals and should have gone to jail for half the stuff they did. So while the last eight years have been bad, the previous eight were just as bad. - And all my MIL can say to me is.... "oh but he's so good looking".

I believe most people WANT socialism because they think it will save them and protect them from all the bad things in the world. Just think, free healthcare, free gas, free homes.

I could go on and on, but I have to leave. Pooch wants to go play in the garage. If she doesn't get her way, she starts moaning and groaning.

Many of us on this board don't mind helping those who are trying to help themselves and just need a little help. However, I do have a problem supporting and paying for people who refuse to work, educate themselves, etc. If they aren't willing to try, why should we have to pay for them. That is the problem. If we were really all in it together, that would be different but you have people on one side who don't want to work and just want a free ride and you have the other side that is trying to work to support themselves but are told we should support the people who don't want to work either. That is just crap.

So don't say I lack compassion. I have compassion for people who are trying and need help. However, I have no compassion for lazy weasels who would rather get a check in the mail for doing nothing than actually work a day in their life and earn their own way.

Anyone who knows me personally knows that when Bush was running for President in 2000, I told everyone I know that if he's elected, we'll find ourselves at war with Iraq. Nobody believed me.

It's ironic that the reason DIDN'T vote for him in 2004 was the very same reason I didn't vote for him in 2000: I was against war with Iraq.

What is particularly troubling about all this is that Bush appeared to use the tragedy of 9/11 to justify his war against Iraq.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to find that this war will eventually be deemed as an illegal war.

We don't know what al Quaeda will do next. Wouldn't surprise me to discover that they were part of the "hacking" team that got ahold of everyone's credit card numbers the other day.

If Bush cares so much about America, he could begin to show it by monitoring our borders. He's been incredibly negligent in that regard.

He promised he would not impose a draft. Yet, recruitment goals haven't been met for several months now. If I had a child of that age, I certainly would try to talk him/her out of joining the military. The government has proven they lie to soldiers, hold reservists hostage, fail to provide adequate equipment to protect soldiers, etc., etc., etc! He will have to bring back the draft, and we can add that to the gazillion lies he's told.

I think your post was great, and I particularly enjoyed the one regarding Hitler that you wrote above. You nailed it!!!

parents have to consent to ANY OTHER procedure for the child, why would this be any different?

Abortion is a horrible, horrible thing that is used by Planned Parentood to make money and used as birth control.

There are too many people in this country who have the attitude "It's my way or the highway".

The below quotes were sent to me by a friend. I didn't take time to look them up, so they are fair game for anyone who wants to take a shot at them. Sorry for the type style on them. I couldn't seem to make them smaller.

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.

Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

Very Interesting Quote

In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

objective views. This is a one-sided publication that asks for donations to keep it going. Nothing I read in there posts anything against any democrats, just republicans. It is not a fair-minded reporting.

I like to read both sides of the aisle but this publication spews hatred for anything not democratic in order to sell books. To those who can't see both sides, this blog, or publication as they like to state, is just up their aisle. I shake my head at one-sided news. Taken from their web site:

"Indeed, a founding idea of the Consortium for Independent Journalism was that a major investment was needed in journalistic endeavors committed to honestly informing the American people about important events, no matter what the political and economic pressures.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His new book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.' "

the Supreme Court's decision on eminent domain, either, and I also hope that guy buys Souter's property and turns it into a hotel. I love the name of the restaurant he wants to build in the hotel: Just Desserts. (I can't remember which TV show I saw that on because, contrary to those on these boards who already have me figured out, I DON'T only watch MSNBC. I actually flip back and forth between MSNBC and Fox. I'm sure it was one one of those stations, though.)

I do have a problem with partial birth abortions, based on my limited understanding of it, which is what I've heard the conservatives say about a full or nearly full-term baby being basically born and then "beaten to death" by the doctor. (From what I've discovered from some conservatives on these boards in the past few days, I take everything they say with a grain of salt and accept the possibility up front that it's an exaggerated statement devoid of critical facts.)

But if this is indeed true, then I don't know how it could be considered anything BUT murder. And I don't understand the issue regarding the health of the mother because if the mother can survive the delivery of a baby that can survive outside the womb, then the issue would seem nonexistent. (Again, I don't know that much about it.)

I also have mixed feelings about children and abortion. One the one hand, it is a surgical procedure, and if my child can't even have her ears pierced without my consent, then certainly she shouldn't be allowed to have a surgical procedure without my consent.

But what about if she's been impregnated as the result of a rape by her father or other family member? That sick stuff DOES happen in this country. What if she knows she wants an abortion? Should she be forced to have the baby? I can think of situations where she might be safer if the parents didn't know, but yet I still feel the parents have a right to know. I'm very conflicted about this particular issue and can't say I have a definite opinion. That's why I'd like to hear more on the subject from some intelligent, thoughtful, nonjudgmental people.

As far as gay marriages, I admit I get a little "twinge" at the use of the word "marriage." It might be that something deep in my gut is telling me that marriage SHOULD be between a man and a woman. After all, WE invented it and WE wrecked it. I think they should invent a new name for their unions because from what I've personally seen, gay couples seem to last for a very long time, much longer than some marriages I know. As far as whether or not they should have rights, why SHOULDN'T they? I don't recall a day during puberty when I woke up and made the decision that I was going to be straight. Likewise, I'm willing to bet that no gay person woke up and decided to be gay. I just don't understand why people are so threatened by the thought that a group might actually have RIGHTS in this country. As with abortion or stem cell research, etc., if they don't believe in it, they shouldn't PARTICIPATE IN IT. I'm neither pro-gay or anti-gay. (A quick look in the mirror, though, reminds me that I'm definitely pro-gray.

)

With all of these social issues, as you said, we will "stand in judgment with our maker." That's between us and our own personal God, and those with different religious/spiritual beliefs have no right to shove their beliefs down our throat.

I saw a post on the other board referring to when the U.S. was founded, saying that the vast majority was Christian but that others were given "the freedom to others not to believe..."

NOBODY can "give" anyone "freedom" to either believe or not to believe, and the fact that this poster thinks they can is either very stupid or very scary, and I'm not exactly sure which it is. I think this is relevant because I believe there are some conservatives out there who don't only want the law to reflect their specific narrow brand of religion, but they would LOVE to be able to control what people think and believe.

Knowing that Bush is going to appoint one (maybe two before the end of the year) new Supreme Court Justice(s) scares me because, as you said, our rights are being slowly taken away, and this man has proven by his own actions that the personal freedoms of others aren't things that he cares for much, especially freedom of speech and ideas. That's why he banned anyone who didn't agree 100% with his views from all of his "open town hall" meetings.

We also have an evangelical Senator who holds a public meeting in a search and says that liberals aren't people of faith.

First, it's freedom of speech. Next, it will be freedom of religion. What about freedom of "thought."

I wonder what their views on stem cell research would be if it was discovered that stem cell research held the key to developing a new technique to control thought processes of those who disagree with them.