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fighting fire with fire doesn't work

Posted By: a constituent on 2009-02-04
In Reply to: War on terror -- - MT in PA

We have been hitting each other over the head with clubs since Early Man.  The American military has killed innocents, too.  I do not think Americans are more deserving of anything than anyone else who inhabits this planet.  We are all human beings with families and feelings and lives.  Perhaps its time to drop the weapons and communicate for a change. 


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fight fire with fire
We need to **take it there** more often and louder.  We have been too quiet, too politically correct and where has it gotten us?  The republicans have been smearing democrats and each election has had nothing but dirty tricks from the republicans.  This past election, Kerry tried to be on the up and up, not personally attacking..What did the republicans do?  Secretly paid for a group to smear Kerry and his Vietnam War record.  When Bush was asked, he said he had nothing to do with the group.  Baloney!  It was backed by the republican party.  That is the way Rove and Bush are, they smear their opponents.  Time to fight fire with fire.  No more Mr. Nice Guy.
fire with fire
Tired of dirty fighting?  It is the republican party who was the dirty fighters, not the democrats.  and they continue to be dirty fighters and will win again and again if we dont stand up to them.  Fight fire with fire.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  In the political spectrum that is America, you dont get anywhere for being the up and up person, the good guy, you win with dirty tricks.  If you dont realize that, you need to step back when it comes to politics..I bemoan the situation, for sure, but I will fight fire with fire and the democrats will win once again..and,  clue to you, check on Bushs right hand man, Rove, look at his extremely dirty politics and then ask yourself can we ever win against something like that by being nice?  I dont think so and the country depends on the liberals getting the country back on track.  I will do everything it takes, of course, everything that is legal.  I dont break the law like Rove and libby are now being shown that they did.
Please fire them all. sm
People are losing their jobs, homes, and on the streets - and a mouse gets 35 million.
Cease fire.
No canned text for me. The tone of our posts are set by these my-way-of-the-highway / scorched earth approaches to opposite views. I have very exhilarating exchanges when the 2 parties are respectful, informed, flexible, open-minded, focused and on task, more interested in finding common ground than sowing the seeds of division, looking for solutions as opposed to validation and understanding that no political problems will ever be solved without bipartisan participation, mediation and compromise.

Plagiarizing and paraphrasing an opponent’s text and ideas and trying to throw them back at them does not an effective argument make. Furthermore, it is childish…like those playground disputes between children…“you did, no you did, no you did”…etc. It is not your ideas that I find so distasteful, it is your presentation. Not to be cliché, but you attract more bees with sugar than vinegar. I am not intolerant of Hannity…watch him frequently. Cannot have an effective debate without becoming familiar with the “cons” side of the argument.

On the bigot thing. Remember me? I’m the one who is hawking inclusion, supportive of minority interests, and has the audacity to suggest that Americans are not the only ones who just might deserve some equality, dignity, respect and basic human rights…even if they are illegal. I suppose it is a positive sign that you at least take offense. There’s hope for you yet.

On racial purity. You are really big on maintaining American cultural integrity and identity. But when it comes to extending the same consideration to our immigrants you go ballistic…clear off the map, at times. They can walk and chew gum at the same time…it is possible to preserve ones’ native culture AND be a good American. These are not two mutually exclusive concepts. If our democratic principles are all they are cracked up to be, it would not be so painful to see them behaving like Americans.

Going to go out on a limb here and to use and example. Mexican-Americans gathered together (right to assemble) waving their flag in protest (freedom of speech) of harsh immigration laws or working conditions in the maquilidoras are trying to bring these issues to the doorstep of the government who created those conditions (right to redress grievances). What could be more American than that? You cannot look at that crowd and distinguish between which among them are legal and which are not…after all, those are issues of ALL Mexican natives. Should we deny all of them these rights, implying that such rights are reserved for the REAL Americans? Being American is not simply a matter of a piece of paper, some arbitrary degree of language proficiency, some certain level of income or education. They should not be required to melt into the pot and disappear, renounce their birthrights and turn their backs on their own people just to qualify. Can’t have it both ways. If you want them to be Americans, then you have to LET them be Americans.

Ask yourself this question. If you saw 50,000 illegal Irish immigrants doing the same thing in NYC, would your reaction be the same? The bottom line is this: Our new wave of immigrants does not look like the ones from the past. You seemed to enjoy the DAR bridge party swapping stories of how they all came from different countries and cross bred with one another …even had a occasional Indian in the wood pile…and produced this great nation of mutts. But the breed was selectively white. If it was okay then, it should be okay now. The problem you are grappling with is that the results would produce all these mongrel shades of God-knows what. If this make you uncomfortable in the least little bit…if you are now feeling driven to slap me up side the head…that’s the voice of bigotry.

On elitism. Your posts are full of strict, literal reads and “tudes” as you call them. Sue me if I took a page from your book. At least you sort of tried to address the “academics,” still not calling it by name. If you could stop slaying the messenger long enough to hear the message, you would understand that there is nothing condescending about wanting to engage in informed debate that orients itself around reaching mutual respect and understanding. It has absolutely nothing to do with being angry or feeling superior. Think what you like, but I am neither of those. I simply enjoy using my language and have an affinity for broad vocabulary. It’s just who I am. Blame it on the docs. They certainly sent me to the dictionary too many times to count and I lingered there for a while, that’s all there is to it. This personal trait should not in any way exempt me from debate, nor should I be subjected to ridicule, name calling or unfounded accusations because of it.

There is something you and I have in common. We are 2 American gals coming from opposite ends of the political spectrum, locked into the extreme divisions that plague our fellow citizens from shore to shore. If we cannot find our way past this kind of bickering in which we both find ourselves ensconced, we all are in big trouble.
Believe it or not, Sam, I actually enjoy our posts. Okay, go ahead if you like. Send me to the therapist again. Call me masochist, bipolar, schizo, whatever. I just think we could do better than this.

Speaking of therapy, I have a life-long friend, an endearing street thug / bad boy from younger days, who grew up and became a therapist. He works with drug addicts, adult children of alcoholics (being one himself) and dysfunctional families. He said something to me that made a lot of sense. One of the first challenging pieces of advice he throws out to a new patient is to “try to keep things in the third person,” in an effort to “dial back” nonproductive confrontations with family members. I thought he was crazy at first, but I started trying this with my husband and to my surprise, it really did seem to help us to better understand one another, even after 18 years. That is what I will be trying to do next time you and I visit the water cooler. If you want to chill on the immigrant dialog for a while, that works for me.

Thanks for the good luck wishes on the job search. Hope I can find a decent company that is not just another maquilidora masquerading as an MTSO!

Where there is smoke there is fire!!
xx
Well sh1t fire...ain't that the truth!
In America, anyone can be President. That's one of the risks we take.
Fire-and-brimstone campaign
You can go to your fire-and brimstone rallies, wallow in your misery, and try to think of more ways to smear the finest candidate this Country has seen in decades.

I will go to the joyful rallies, full of hope for the future of this great Country.
No smoke, no fire, only mirrors. LOL!
.
Who's God? Your God? My God? Earth, Wind and Fire?
x
Okay. Where is the petition to fire that CNN reporter
nm
They will think whatever they need to think to stoke the fire that feeds their hatred. nm

Boy, your cease fire didn't last long....LOL
Just in case you are interested, and I doubt you are, I wrote this BEFORE you wrote your cease fire, not AFTER. Which makes your cease fire ring all the more hollow, especially in the face of this..."Okay you want to keep the gloves off..." LOL. And if this dialing it back a notch...yes, frankly, I would suggest you go back and talk to that family friend because you haven't got the third person thing down yet. Every post flies in the face of what you try to say. You ARE angry. You DO need to feel superior. You want what you want, I want what I want. I make specific examples of specific Americans I have personal knowledge of who immigrated from Mexico and that is their experience, and the experience of many others. But you could care less. If it doesn't illustrate your point, you don't care about it. You don't care that it costs your fellow citizens millions every year to support illegal immigrants...money that could be going to the needs of citizens of this country. And where do you get that illegals don't stay anyway? Got any of those 4-letter words to support that?

Yes, my feelings extend to ANY nationality illegal immigrant. Why on earth do you think I hate Mexicans? I don't hate ANYONE. I just want them to come here legally like other immigrants have, get a green card, go through the process, become citizens if that is what they choose to do, or go back home when their visas expire. Draw and quarter me for that if you like. I couldn't, at this point, care LESS.

Again you completely missed the fact that I grew up and went to school with Mexican immigrant children and knew their families and keep in touch today. I have no problem with Mexicans. It is a fact that the biggest problem we have with immigration is from Mexico...welll duhhh...we share a border with them. Much easier for them to immigrate illegally, much easier because of the porous border for folks to get in that we don't really want to get in. But of course, you would

As to it takes a long time to become a citizen, yada yada yada...well, good things come to those who wait. It has always taken a long time to become a citizen. Since there are millions here who are citizens, obviously they thought it was worth the wait. Excuses, excuses, excuses. It is the LAW. Do you pick and choose what laws you want upholded and those you don't?

You say NONE of them want to change who we are or what we are. Did I miss the part where you were named national spokesperson for illegal immigrants? You don't even realize you said the same thing I said. Yes, they come here for a better life. That's fine. If I immigrated to Canada for a better life, I would not carry the American flag down their streets in protest, out of respect if nothing else, but I suppose that is something that does not matter to you either...it certainly is not present in your rants. If I immigrated to Canada to a part where they spoke predominantly French, I would learn French. I would be embracing of their culture. Because I chose to make that my country and my home. I would not have to be asked to do so. But obviously I am the exception and not the rule.

Again with the languages. I don't care how many languages are spoken here. My sole point is that for preservation and protection of the United States of America we should be united...and you don't see that either. I belive what I believe, you believe what you believe. And never the twain shall meet, it would appear. Does not make me wrong, does not make you wrong. I will hold my hopes for the America I long for and you hold the hopes for the America you long for. The years to come will tell the tale. And if all this comes back to bite you years down the road...and we are too old to care...that little voice in the back of your head that said "I told you so..." That will be me.

The Civil War...geez. It was all ABOUT preserving unity. If it had not been fought to preserve the union we would be two countries today fighting back and forth across the border like Iran and Iraq for example. Slavery was only part of the issue of the civil war. But a brilliant man (and Republican I might add) Abraham Lincoln saw the folly in splitting the union, and another fine man, Robert E. Lee, saw the same folly...but chose to be a Virginian before an American, though it broke his heart to do so (to use his own words), and we see where that led. After the civil war and the slaves were freed, we came back together as a country, stronger than before, and never since have Americans chosen to be anything but Americans first. So far. That is what I would like to preserve. That is all I am talking about. Unity. Read up on the civil war. Read up on Abraham Lincoln and Robert E. Lee. Both great men with great vision. The Civil War was about unity.

As to now who's arrogant? I am about the most UN-arrogant person you would ever meet. I wouldn't know how to be verbally condescending and you have it down to a fine art. For someone who is not angry and not needing to feel superior, your posts say the opposite.

All this aside, keep safe during the bad weather coming up. I know hurricanes don't go inland very far too often, praying that it won't get to you. Hoping tornados spawned won't get to either. Keep your head down and live to verbally slice and dice me another day. :)
If she had the proper and legal authority to fire him --
then why didn't she just do it instead of them telling the other guy to do it - then there would not be a problem.

Also, this inquiry was started before she was running for the VP slot - so it was not something they cooked up to get her after she got picked by McCain.
Ever heard of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire? (nm)
x
Not bickering. Holding feet to fire. Like GP...
and I agreed to. Have a good night!
The fire safety argument is a lot of hooey.

Is it more of a fire hazard just because more than 15 people meet on a regular basis than if someone has a single  party for 30 people? 


As long as you and the other wiccans are clothed and no open-burning laws are being broken (in a residential area, that would  be a fire hazard) I would have no particular problem with your rituals.  Depending on the time of day/night and loudness of chanting, it might constitute a disturbance of the peace, same as a loud barbecue party in the neighborhood.  But with the basic concept of your meeting, no big deal.


Newly Elected Muslim Lawmaker Under Fire...sm
My take: If you make a person who does not hold the Bible sacred swear to uphold his office on it, then does that swearing in really mean anything. They don't follow the teachings of the Bible, so why would it be relevant for them to swear on the Bible? (article below)


Newly Elected Muslim Lawmaker Under Fire
Decision to Take Oath on Koran Sparks Controversy
..
By Andrea Stone, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON (Dec. 1) -- The first Muslim elected to Congress hasn't been sworn into office yet, but his act of allegiance has already been criticized by a conservative commentator. In a column posted Tuesday on the conservative website Townhall.com, Dennis Prager blasted Minnesota Democrat Keith Ellison's decision to take the oath of office Jan. 4 with his hand on a Quran, the Muslim holy book.

He should not be allowed to do so, Prager wrote, not because of any American hostility to the Koran, but because the act undermines American culture.

He said Ellison, a convert from Catholicism, should swear on a Christian Bible -- which America holds as its holiest book. … If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress.

The post generated nearly 800 comments on Townhall.com and sparked a tempest in the conservative blogosphere. Many who posted comments called the United States a Christian country and said Muslims are beginning to gain too much influence. Others wrote about the separation of church and state and said the Constitution protects all religions.

Dave Colling, Ellison's spokesman, said he was unavailable for comment. Earlier, Ellison told the online Minnesota Monitor, The Constitution guarantees for everyone to take the oath of office on whichever book they prefer. And that's what the freedom of religion is all about.

Colling said Ellison's office has received hundreds of very bigoted and racist e-mails and phone calls since Prager's column appeared. The vast majority said, 'You should resign from office if you're not willing to use the book our country was founded on,' Colling said

Requiring somebody to take an oath of office on a religious text that's not his violates the Constitution, said Kevin Hasson, president of The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty.

Members of the House of Representatives traditionally raise their right hands and are sworn in together on the floor of the chamber. The ritual sometimes seen as the swearing-in is actually a ceremonial photo op with the speaker of the House that usually involves a Bible.

They can bring in whatever they want, says Fred Beuttler, deputy historian of the House.

Prager, who is Jewish, wrote that no Mormon elected official has demanded to put his hand on the Book of Mormon. But Republican Sen. Gordon Smith of Oregon, carried a volume of Mormon scriptures that included the Bible and the Book of Mormon at his swearing-in ceremony in 1997.

Prager, who hosts a radio talk show, could not be reached for comment.

12-01-06 11:28 EST

Copyright 2006 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc. All Rights Reserved.

MTPockets posted about SP loving to fire people.
MTPockets could've just kept her post to the issue, but she had to throw in the barb about firing, so the next poster has every right to address it. Or is what she is referencing over your head?
I couldn't get in...crowd already exceeded the fire code.
So, after parking two blocks away and trudging to the party, the fire officials kept us out because the fire code only allows 300, of which there were more than that inside. Then the cops told us we couldn't congregate outside either due to traffic and not having a separate (outdoor) permit.

Not exactly what I'd hoped for since it was a wasted trip for me, but still wonderful.
U.S., France join in cease-fire call in Lebanon war..sm
So we are back bumping elbows with France. If only we would have taken their advice on Iraq too.
Dems leak Palin's SSN, Fred on Fire, Newt

 A few tidbits from Rush today.  Compare Nancy Pelosi to Newt--not even a contest!



Mr. Newt Rips NBC Reporter
Gingrich fights back


  Fred Thompson's speech at RNC  video)










Stack of Stuff Quick Hits Page
» Wizard of Smart Friedman on Palin and Big Oil
» Oil Prices Come Down, Speculators Get Rich
» Democrats Release Palin's Social Security Number
» Two Lib Journalists Jealous of Sarah Palin
» Kids Protest Rotten School in Obama's Chicago


dont worry, you wont catch on fire when you read them!
i have to go know and pick up my daughter.  I might do some bible thumping on the way to the school, who knows.
North Korea threaten to fire missile towards Hawaii on 4th of July
On the 4th of July. How should the US respond?

Liar liar pants on fire.

Liar Liar Pants On Fire

Alleged link between 9/11 and Iraq


Examination of pre-war intelligence claims by Bush administration





MSNBC



Updated: 6:51 p.m. ET Nov. 11, 2005























David Shuster

MSNBC Correspondent










Just days after the 9/11 attacks, Vice President Cheney, on “Meet The Press,” said the response should be aimed at Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror organization not Saddam Hussein's Iraq.


When asked if any evidence connected the Iraqis to the operation, Cheney said, no.


But during that same time period, according to Bob Woodward's book, Bush At War, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was pushing for military strikes on Iraq and during cabinet meetings Cheney, expressed deep concern about Saddam and wouldn't rule out going after Iraq at some point.


That point started to come 11 months later, just before the first anniversary of 9/11. 







The president and vice president had decided to redirect their war on terror to Baghdad.  So, with the help of the newly-formed White House Iraq group, which consisted of top officials and strategists, the selling of a war on Iraq began and the administration's rhetoric about Saddam changed.


On September 8, 2002, not only did White House hawks tell The New York Times for a front page exclusive that Saddam was building a nuclear weapon, five administration officials also went on the Sunday television shows that day to repeat the charge.


He is, in fact actively and aggressively seeking to acquire nuclear weapons, Cheney told Tim Russert on “Meet The Press.


But the White House started claiming that Iraq and the group responsible for 9/11 were one in the same.


The war on terror, you can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror, said Bush on September 25, 2002.


We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases, said Bush a few days later on October 7.  He's a threat because he is dealing with Al-Qaeda.


In pushing the Saddam-Iraq-9/11 connection, both the president and the vice president made two crucial claims.  First, they alleged there had been a 1994 meeting in the Sudan between Osama bin Laden and an Iraqi intelligence official.


After the Iraq war began, however, the 9/11 Commission was formed and reported that while Osama bin Laden may have requested Iraqi help, Iraq apparently never responded.


The other crucial pre-war White House claim was that 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official in the Czech republic in April 2001.


Cheney stated, It's been pretty well confirmed that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a Senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service.


Confirmed or unconfirmed by Vice President Cheney the 9/11 Commission said, We do not believe such a meeting occurred.  Why?  Because cell phone records from the time show Atta in the United States.


None the less, the White House strategy worked.  In March of 2003, one poll found 45 percent of Americans believed Saddam Hussein was personally involved in 9/11.


On the eve of the Iraq war, the White House sent a letter to Congress telling lawmakers that force was authorized against those who, aided the 9/11 attacks.


Yet the Bush administration continues to say it never claimed Iraq was linked to 9/11.


I think I made it very clear that we have never made that claim, White House Press Secretary McClellan repeated on Sept. 17, 2003.


The brutal irony is that while implications, innuendo, or false claims if you will about a 9/11 connection helped take us into Iraq.  The Iraqi war itself has created a real al-Qaeda/Iraq link that may keep us from getting out.


Doesn't work that way.

IF Obama gets in, then Hilary can't run against him next time.  He would be the incumbent, and I don't see her jumping ships.


She can run against McCain in 2012...


That one doesn't work either. What's it about? nm
.
It doesn't always work....
My daughter was on birth control pills - took them religiously - until she gave birth to my granddaughter. 20 years old and had NO idea she was pregnant, she had 3 blown disks in her back, had a period every month and she is so tall and long waisted, not a single one of us had a clue. I am grateful for my granddaughter - I love her more than anything. But it freaked my daughter out so bad, she immediately got her tubes tied. BTW, she had 3 cousins who got pregnant on birth control pills. So, they don't always work. No one likes abortion, but, I stand by the premise that a woman has the right to choose - whether you like it or not.
Link doesn't work.
xx
Link doesn't work.
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This link doesn't work. nm
xxxxxxx
This link doesn't work. ?????
Not sure how anyone can enjoy it????
Link doesn't work nm
x
Link doesn't work
Do you have a website where I can find this?
This message doesn't work
Unless you are a trained psychologist/psychiatrist you don't know McCain's thoughts. As the previous poster stated he's been back to Vietnam and he even met the people who held him as POW. He has no animosity toward them. It was a war a long time ago. McCain has healed from that and with the help of professional trained people. Your trying to insinuate that he is still p.o.'d about that. News flash - we are not at war with Vietnam and the people we are at war with did nothing to physically harm McCain. I believe McCain's experience he had being a POW adds to his character and he will understand better than anyone what our soldiers who are at war are facing. People seem to forget that he and Gov. Palin have children fighting in the war. They want them home as much as anyone else.

As for Obama and his Kenya ties - I don't know what kind of "deals" he would cut with Kenya. But somehow "cutting a deal" does not sound good for the US.
Your link doesn't work.
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/780410-SHVVvq/native/780410.PDF


That doesn't work anymore.
my friend. ;-)
Nice in theory. Doesn't work well
nm
Yes, but alas, socialism doesn't work that way....lol.
All you end up with is a lower class dependent upon the government for anything. Hello Cuba.
In case link doesn't work
I will post it this way too. :)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/14/60minutes/main3833797.shtml
Guess what? Birth control doesn't always work!
and judging a teen and a mother based on those assumptions?? Sure hope the shoe isn't on the other foot one day. I know many women, wed and unwed, who have gotten pregnant while on the pill, taking it responsibly and consistently. There is no sure birth control, and any woman with a lick of sense should know that without a doubt.

Are you all honestly saying that someone with a full-time job therefore cannot raise a family or is incapable of spending adequate time with their children? If so, then everyone here working full-time with a family, raise your hands because you are now classified as unfit mothers. I don't care if you work from home or not, because even at home, if you're working, then you aren't giving your children undivided 24/7 attention. For that matter, if you sleep at night, you'd better raise your hand because you can't watch your kids if you're asleep. We could always go back to the 1950s version of mothers, I'm sure every child from that era was perfectly well-adjusted.

BTW, it takes TWO to make a baby so why is it always the FEMALE that is blasted? Seriously, especially if you are a woman making such comments, you should be thoroughly ashamed. Unless she's the new Virgin Mary, she didn't knock herself up, and unless you were present during the conception, you don't know if birth control was used. Just because Mom is against it doesn't mean the teen wouldn't use it anyway. Mom was obviously against teen sex but that apparently didn't stop her. Did you do every single thing your parents expected of you? If you say yes, then you should run for POTUS. Perfect people are so rare that any in existence would surely be voted into office. Then again, maybe not, because Jesus is the only perfect person I can recall and he was crucified.
nah, doesn't work...they're still here, and I barely watch anything that's...sm
called entertainment.

They're still here....


If socialism doesn't work - then why did W give the banks all that $$?
nm
Link doesn't work - No File Found
x
That 'racist' card doesn't work with me..... wrong is
**
Fighting a war to...........sm
try to keep Muslim extremist terrorists at bay and help create a more democratic government in a country overrun by Muslim extremists does make me feel safer.

Would you rather we just stop and let the Muslims take over our country as well? And don't think they won't....they have said themselves they would and it would be an inside job.
Did ya all know they are still fighting?

This morning I heard on the news that they came to a decision and cut around $100B from the package. I turned on CSpan and they're STILL fighting over it.


Now Kerry is fighting because I guess some of the things that were taking out is something he wanted in. I can't tell so far because I just put it on about 15 minutes ago. I had thought everything was settled and they would vote on Monday.


Probably fighting because....
it is half tax cuts and half spending - in view of that, it will never work.......
What isn't worth fighting for...
Probably a lot of things are worth fighting for...like liberty, to protect our country, to protect our values and ideals.

Unfortunately though it's been a long time since any wars were really fought for those things. They tell us that's what it's all about and we try to buy it, but if we happen to look at the facts closely, we just find out a lot of wealthy people get richer and they use the blood of other people's children to do it. They make up enemies and pour on the propaganda to rile us up so we'll think it's noble to go and die, and make them rich. That's how it seems to me anyway, and history certainly tends to back up that conclusion.

I think the last time we were fighting for worthwhile things was when we wore animal skins and carried wooden spears.
They are fighting. And they are dying for their cause. sm
Every single day they are fighting.  They have a trained military now.  They also have their police force.  Many of them have given up their lives for the cause.  It takes time to train a military. 
Well....if I was fighting for my life....
I would much rather have Sarah at my back than Joe Biden or Barack Obama. In a HEARTBEAT.