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NO to torture. YES to tough interrogations!

Posted By: nm on 2009-05-23
In Reply to: No to torture ! This brings only hate and more war! ..nm - ,-

nm


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Your opinion of torture is your opinion. Tough
nm
Bush signs torture ban but reserves right to torture






Boston.com

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Bush could bypass new torture ban


Waiver right is reserved



WASHINGTON -- When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.


After approving the bill last Friday, Bush issued a ''signing statement -- an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law -- declaring that he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.


''The executive branch shall construe [the law] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief, Bush wrote, adding that this approach ''will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President . . . of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.


Some legal specialists said yesterday that the president's signing statement, which was posted on the White House website but had gone unnoticed over the New Year's weekend, raises serious questions about whether he intends to follow the law.


A senior administration official, who spoke to a Globe reporter about the statement on condition of anonymity because he is not an official spokesman, said the president intended to reserve the right to use harsher methods in special situations involving national security.


''We are not going to ignore this law, the official said, noting that Bush, when signing laws, routinely issues signing statements saying he will construe them consistent with his own constitutional authority. ''We consider it a valid statute. We consider ourselves bound by the prohibition on cruel, unusual, and degrading treatment.


But, the official said, a situation could arise in which Bush may have to waive the law's restrictions to carry out his responsibilities to protect national security. He cited as an example a ''ticking time bomb scenario, in which a detainee is believed to have information that could prevent a planned terrorist attack.


''Of course the president has the obligation to follow this law, [but] he also has the obligation to defend and protect the country as the commander in chief, and he will have to square those two responsibilities in each case, the official added. ''We are not expecting that those two responsibilities will come into conflict, but it's possible that they will.


David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.


''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on.


Golove and other legal specialists compared the signing statement to Bush's decision, revealed last month, to bypass a 1978 law forbidding domestic wiretapping without a warrant. Bush authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans' international phone calls and e-mails without a court order starting after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.


The president and his aides argued that the Constitution gives the commander in chief the authority to bypass the 1978 law when necessary to protect national security. They also argued that Congress implicitly endorsed that power when it authorized the use of force against the perpetrators of the attacks.


Legal academics and human rights organizations said Bush's signing statement and his stance on the wiretapping law are part of a larger agenda that claims exclusive control of war-related matters for the executive branch and holds that any involvement by Congress or the courts should be minimal.


Vice President Dick Cheney recently told reporters, ''I believe in a strong, robust executive authority, and I think that the world we live in demands it. . . . I would argue that the actions that we've taken are totally appropriate and consistent with the constitutional authority of the president.


Since the 2001 attacks, the administration has also asserted the power to bypass domestic and international laws in deciding how to detain prisoners captured in the Afghanistan war. It also has claimed the power to hold any US citizen Bush designates an ''enemy combatant without charges or access to an attorney.


And in 2002, the administration drafted a secret legal memo holding that Bush could authorize interrogators to violate antitorture laws when necessary to protect national security. After the memo was leaked to the press, the administration eliminated the language from a subsequent version, but it never repudiated the idea that Bush could authorize officials to ignore a law.


The issue heated up again in January 2005. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales disclosed during his confirmation hearing that the administration believed that antitorture laws and treaties did not restrict interrogators at overseas prisons because the Constitution does not apply abroad.


In response, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, filed an amendment to a Defense Department bill explicitly saying that that the cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees in US custody is illegal regardless of where they are held.


McCain's office did not return calls seeking comment yesterday.


The White House tried hard to kill the McCain amendment. Cheney lobbied Congress to exempt the CIA from any interrogation limits, and Bush threatened to veto the bill, arguing that the executive branch has exclusive authority over war policy.


But after veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress approved it, Bush called a press conference with McCain, praised the measure, and said he would accept it.


Legal specialists said the president's signing statement called into question his comments at the press conference.


''The whole point of the McCain Amendment was to close every loophole, said Marty Lederman, a Georgetown University law professor who served in the Justice Department from 1997 to 2002. ''The president has re-opened the loophole by asserting the constitutional authority to act in violation of the statute where it would assist in the war on terrorism.


Elisa Massimino, Washington director for Human Rights Watch, called Bush's signing statement an ''in-your-face affront to both McCain and to Congress.


''The basic civics lesson that there are three co-equal branches of government that provide checks and balances on each other is being fundamentally rejected by this executive branch, she said.


''Congress is trying to flex its muscle to provide those checks [on detainee abuse], and it's being told through the signing statement that it's impotent. It's quite a radical view. src=http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_story_end_icon.gif



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© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
 












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I think this is a tough one

because some woman are obviously so put off by Palin it isn't funny and others think she is great.  I personally find her to be well accomplished and quite capable of being the VP. 


However, I did see a woman on TV a few days ago who is a democrat and a Hillary supporter who said she was currently undecided but felt that a recent Obama ad showing Palin at the end and winking was sexist.  So....hopefully he ticked more feminists off who thought that was sexist.  LOL! 


not what to want to read....tough!
xxx
Tough times

Notice what affilitation the top 6 are! - N wonder they don't care if we're in a recession.


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/54838.html


That's tough to decide.

I like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Hate snow, afraid of volcanoes, and can't take heat anymore. Hubby has been wanting to move to Canada for years. He likes snow and mountains.


I also like Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia. They're cold but I like the sea.


Maybe I can find an nice island halfway between the extremes I posted? Any suggestions? LOL


I know this is tough to understand, but...
these are military prisoners who will not be undergoing a civil trial, it will be a military tribunal. They are not United States citizens and, therefore, are not guaranteed any rights by the United States Constitution. Honestly, they should be (and probably are) ecstatic that we area not cutting off their heads.
He already has answered tough questions and without a

teleprompter.  Now it is about time they let Palin answer a few.


Tough. Still a free country. sm
I think people like Bill O'Lielly and Hannity, Limbaugh and Colter should be banned - but atlas - it is still a free country.  Ha ha.
Cheney Fields Tough Questions
I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency. --Vice President Dick Cheney, on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005

Hmmm, so I guess now we've progressed to the *FINAL* last throes ???

Associated Press
Update 1: Cheney Fields Tough Questions From Troops
12.18.2005, 03:18 PM
Facing tough questions from battle-weary troops, Vice President Dick Cheney on Sunday cited signs of progress in Iraq and signaled that force changes could come in 2006.

Cheney rode the wave of last week's parliamentary elections during a 10-hour surprise visit to Iraq that aimed to highlight progress at a time when Americans question the mission. Military commanders and top government officials offered glowing reports, but the rank-and-file troops Cheney met did not seem to share their enthusiasm.

From our perspective, we don't see much as far as gains, said Marine Cpl. Bradley Warren, the first to question Cheney in a round-table discussion with about 30 military members. We're looking at small-picture stuff, not many gains. I was wondering what it looks like from the big side of the mountain - how Iraq's looking.

Cheney replied that remarkable progress has been made in the last year and a half.

I think when we look back from 10 years hence, we'll see that the year '05 was in fact a watershed year here in Iraq, the vice president said. We're getting the job done. It's hard to tell that from watching the news. But I guess we don't pay that much attention to the news.

Another Marine, Cpl. R.P. Zapella, asked, Sir, what are the benefits of doing all this work to get Iraq on its feet?

Cheney said the result could be a democratically elected Iraq that is unified, capable of defending itself and no longer a base for terrorists or a threat to its neighbors. We believe all that's possible, he said.

Although he said that any decision about troop levels will be made by military commanders, Cheney told the troops, I think you will see changes in our deployment patterns probably within this next year.

About 160,000 troops are in Iraq. The administration has said that troop levels are expected to return to a baseline of 138,000 after the elections, but critics of the war have called for a significant drawdown.

More than 2,100 troops have died in Iraq since the U.S. invaded in March 2003.

The round-table with the vice president came after hundreds of troops had gathered in an aircraft hangar to hear from a mystery guest. When Cheney emerged at the podium, he drew laughs when he deadpanned, I'm not Jessica Simpson.

Shouts of hooah! from the audience interrupted Cheney a few times, but mostly the service members listened intently. When he delivered the applause line, We're in this fight to win. These colors don't run, the only sound was a lone whistle.

The skepticism that Cheney faced reflects opinions back home, where most Americans say they do not approve of President Bush's handling of the war. It was unique coming from a military audience, which typically receives administration officials more enthusiastically.

Cheney became the highest-ranking administration official to visit the country since Bush's trip on Thanksgiving Day 2003. It was his first visit to Iraq since March 1991, when he was defense secretary for President George H.W. Bush.

The tour came on the same day that President Bush was giving a prime-time Oval Office address on Iraq. Cheney's aides said the timing was a coincidence, yet the two events combined in a public-relations blitz aimed at capitalizing on the elections to rebuild support for the unpopular war.

The daylong tour of Iraq was so shrouded in secrecy that even Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari and President Jalal Talabani were kept in the dark. The prime minister said he was surprised when he showed up for what he thought was a meeting with the U.S. ambassador and saw Cheney.

Talabani, his finger still stained purple as proof that he had voted three days earlier, was clearly delighted. He thanked Cheney profusely for coming and called him one of the heroes of liberating Iraq.

Cheney had an hourlong briefing on the election from Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, top U.S. commander Gen. George Casey and Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq. He emerged saying he was encouraged by preliminary results showing high turnout about Sunni Muslims, who make up the backbone of the insurgency.

His next visit was to Taji Air Base, where he saw tanks that Iraqis had rebuilt and watched while they practiced a vehicle sweep at a security checkpoint.

U.S. forces guarded Cheney with weapons at the ready while Iraqi soldiers, who had no weapons, held their arms out as if they were carrying imaginary guns.

The Syrian border is back under Iraq control now, U.S. Lt. Gen. Marty Dempsey told the vice president, pointing to a map of Iraqi troop locations. When people say, 'When will Iraq take control of its own security?' the answer truly is it already has.

Cheney lunched on lamb kebobs, hummus and rice with raisins along with U.S. and Iraqi soldiers who helped secure polling sites. Then he headed to his third and final stop in Iraq at al-Asad.

Cheney flew over Baghdad in a pack of eight fast-moving Blackhawk helicopters, following the airport road that has been the site of so many insurgent attacks and passing the courthouse where Saddam Hussein is being tried.

The unannounced stops in Iraq came at the beginning of a five-day tour aimed at strengthening support for the war on terror. Stops include Oman, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Cheney's staff kept the Iraq portion secret from reporters, waiting to reveal the plans when Air Force Two was preparing to refuel in the United Kingdom. Once on the ground, the entourage transferred from his conspicuous white and blue 757 to an unmarked C-17 cargo plane that would fly overnight to Baghdad International Airport.





I'm a tough cookie and don't get offended easily
Well I guess you could call it a conflict with myself. On one hand I'd like to believe what they say (that they want a better America and to do good things for Americans and that their plans would be good for the country), but Bill's whole presidency really put a bad taste in my mouth and I was so relieved to have him out of the office. Mind you I'm no fan of Bush, but I was terrified to get Gore in there to continue on with more of the same. Anyway....Gore is a whole nother issue I won't go into.

I was against Hillary's campaign from the beginning. I never have liked her. I did like her while he was campaigning and for about the first two years of him being president, then started reading and learning things about her (her position at Rose Law firm, what she did to get where she's at, her literally having to be pulled off of Bill by the secret service, the foul language she used towards people, the way she would talk to the secret service, the mysterious deaths, her trying to socialize the health care system, the way she represented the US when she would go over to another country and was presented with a gift and she would turn to Chelsea and make a comment that she thought nobody heard but was picked up on the cameras as her telling Chelsea it was a piece of s@@t and she was not going to wear it, etc, etc. She also said another time to Chelsea that she was tired of doing stuff and having to talk to people (other leaders wives) her were below her "class". This was caught on camera so it's not made up.

I was turned off by her campaign tactics from the beginning. The lies, her little crying episode when she felt it served it's purpose. The "shame on you Barack" speech she gave all the while she had been putting out lies about him and his plans. It was the kettle calling the otherside black (or whatever that saying is). The real cincher was when she said she was staying in because we have to remember that "Kennedy was assissinated in June, right?" She never once apologized for anything and she blamed it all on the other side. She doesn't and has never taken responsibility for anything she says. She will say something and blame the other side. But it doesn't surprise me because Bill is the same exact way. A lot of what she did I believe was probably at the direction of the campaign advisers (Terry McAuliffe and others), but she is a grown woman and knows better and she could have said no. She inflated herself like when talking about how she is experienced in dangerous situations because she flew into Bosnia when it was under fire and she has answered the "red phone". Those were outright lies and she knew it. Then everyone says, oh she just couldn't remember. Well I was in the Army - believe me you know when your being fired at. Also claiming what Bill accomplished in the white house as if they were her accomplishments. When caught in her lies she laughs it off and says it was a "minor" mistake.

I do think she could unite the party, but she is choosing to divide it. She says in public she wants a party that is united, but yet she's not telling her supporters that they need to back the nominee. She's telling them that if they march to the convention they have another chance that she could be put on the ticket. She should be telling them that she is not the candidate and she is proud of how far she got but she'll just have to try another time. She is the person who could calm them but she is deciding not too.

I think I do have a lot of fear with McCain. I do not see much of a difference between Hillary and McCain. They have voted the same way in the senate. So the thought of those two are quite frightening for me. I just hope Obama picks the right VP choice. I do hope Clintons supporters do not march to the convention like they say they are going to. I need to read up on history but believe the last time that happened it was horrible and the party lost. Which brings me to the next point which is I have heard that that is Hillary's plan. She wants McCain to win so that way in four years she can run again and therefore she will do everything she can to make sure Obama loses.

I read that she is co-chair of the Senate India Caucus and that she and Bill accepted over 360K (she 60K from them and B 300K) and this is a group that is responsible for taking jobs away from Americans and giving them to other countries (India for one) - this means jobs like yours and mine.

B&H are pushing for a one-world government. They have been trying to get Canada, America & Mexico to become one country with one currency (similar to the Euro), and Hillary wants to be the world leader over it all. This is nothing I heard from any right-wing conspiracy group. This is some document I read somewhere but I can't quote it at this time (would take some research).

What I don't like about B&H ... Vince Foster (suicide?) and removal of documents from his office, Gennifer Flowers, Monica Lewinski (lies and cover ups), Travelgate, Castle Grande (sham transactions), Cattle futures, Waco, Elian Gonzales, mysterious deaths of James McDougal, Mary Mahoney, Ron Brown, Ed & Kathleen Willey, Jerry Parks, James Bunch, James Wilson, Kathy Ferguson. There at least 35 others but won't list them all. Them accepting illegal funds, destroying the white house before they left and air force one, Hillary saying that she was going to think of the cleaning lady in her office building as a human being. I did get sick of when there was a tragedy and he would be there in front of the camera he had his "sad pouty face" on, but as soon as he thought the camera was off of him he'd go into a laughing state and be quite jovial, then he'd see a camera and back was that sad face again. His lies that he belonged to all these black churches throughout his life. There are other things I can't remember right now.

When Bill was campaigning for president I heard about all the promises he made, lower the budget, cut in taxes, beter health care for Americans, this, that, and other promises. He never once held good on his promises (but in all fairness the same has happened with other politicians). During Clinton presidency jobs were lost to overseas, and about 3 weeks after he became president our military was cut back so much that America was not safe from it's enemies. Mind you at this time I still thought he was okay, but little by little that was being eroded away.

One thing about your statement that got me thinking about my opinions about his policies. I may be in the wrong about some of my feelings and its' been so long that I really need to read up about what he did in there. I just disliked him so much that I usually turned him off. I'd hear things here and there (and now I do have to admit I listened to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News a lot at that time) and I do realize that its not fair to judge them on things I heard from them.

Anyway...you have some very good issues you brought up and to tell the truth I do have to do a bit more research. I think overall is my basic disgust of the lies they have told throughout their careers. The way their "fan base" will not listen to truth and claim that Bill and Hillary are so innocent and never did anything wrong, it was all a conspiracy against them.

I never did have anything against Bill's affairs. It is not my busness whether he sleeps with other people and I don't find that as disgusting as a lot of people do. Nobody knows what was going on in their lives that brought him to that position and if I had a wife like Hillary I'd probably sleep with someone else too, but all I say is tell the truth. It was the lies and coverup that I had a problem with. I didn't care that he couldn't keep his boys behind closed doors, but be a man and admit it.

So to sum it up my biggest problem with them is they lie, they manipulate, when caught they say they never said it and when told its on film he comes out and says I'm not going to play that game instead of something like well if its on tape I must have said that and lets talk about that further at another time. I just really lost respect with them. In all fairness for them though I do have to say they are not the only politicians like that.

One more note is I liked your post. It was long but had some very good points and really is making me think twice about some things. I don't think I've answered all your questions, but you have given me a lot to think about. It hasn't changed my opinion since I first posted but is getting me to think and do some research. Tx.
you substitute the "f" in if with an "s" and make it "is". I know, it's tough,
x
Cool. Sounds like he's gonna be tough.
Hope he doesn't put more goofballs in though. When a party turns on it's own candidates, there's definitely something wrong with it.
Another tough Biden interview...scrubbed from the Internet...
Marxism at its best, once again, what we will be able to expect from an Obama white house

Try putting the following in google, and the interview has been scrubbed clean off the Internet. It's hard to even find a transcript of the interview, and could only find parts of it.


Like Orlando, Obama - Biden Bans Philadelphia Station CBS3 After Tough Biden Interview
And from Mr. Pro-torture
Powell Aide: Torture 'Guidance' from VP
CNN News

Monday 21 November 2005

Former staff chief says Cheney's 'flexibility' helped lead to abuse.
Retired U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, who served as former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, told CNN that the practice of torture may be continuing in U.S.-run facilities.

There's no question in my mind that we did. There's no question in my mind that we may be still doing it, Wilkerson said on CNN's Late Edition.

There's no question in my mind where the philosophical guidance and the flexibility in order to do so originated - in the vice president of the United States' office, he said. His implementer in this case was [Defense Secretary] Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department.

At another point in the interview, Wilkerson said the vice president had to cover this in order for it to happen and in order for Secretary Rumsfeld to feel as though he had freedom of action.

Traveling in Latin America earlier this month, President Bush defended U.S. treatment of prisoners, saying flatly, We do not torture. (Full story)

Cheney has lobbied against a measure in Congress that would outlaw cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners, calling for an exception for the CIA in cases that involve a detainee who may have knowledge of an imminent attack.

The amendment was included in a $491 billion Pentagon spending bill that declared 2006 to be a period of significant transition for Iraq. (Full story)

Proposed by Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, the amendment was approved in the Senate last month by a 90-9 vote. It was not included in the House version of the bill.

The White House has said that Bush would likely veto the bill if McCain's language is included, calling the amendment unnecessary and duplicative.

Rumsfeld told ABC's This Week on Sunday that the White House was in negotiations with the Senate over the amendment.

There's a discussion and debate taking place as to what the implications might be and what is supportable and what is not, he told the program. But the fact of the matter is the president from the outset has said that he required that there be humane treatment.

Cheney has come under mounting criticism for his position. Last week, Stansfield Turner, a military veteran who served as director of the CIA during the Carter administration, labeled him the vice president for torture. (Full story)

In a statement responding to Turner's remark, Cheney said his views are reflected in the administration's policy. Our country is at war and our government has an obligation to protect the American people from a brutal enemy that has declared war upon us.

We are aggressively finding terrorists and bringing them to justice and anything we do within this effort is within the law, the statement said, adding that the United States does not torture.

Rumsfeld Denies 'Cabal' Charge

Bush administration officials, including Rumsfeld and military officials, have denied that instances of torture were ever officially condoned. Some personnel accused of torture have been convicted and sentenced for prisoner abuse.

All the instructions I issued required humane treatment, Rumsfeld told ABC. Anything that was done that was not humane has been prosecuted.

But Wilkerson argued last month in a speech that Cheney and Rumsfeld formed a cabal that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

Wilkerson told CNN Sunday he does not know if the president was witting in this or not.

I voted for him twice, he said. I prefer to think that he was not.

Earlier, on the same CNN program, Rumsfeld dismissed as ridiculous the claim that he was involved in a cabal.

Rumsfeld and Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said they had no recollection of Wilkerson having attended meetings with Rumsfeld or Cheney.

In terms of having first-hand information, I just can't imagine that he does, said Rumsfeld. The allegation is ridiculous.

I was in every meeting with the joint chiefs. I was in every meeting with the combatant commanders. I went to the White House multiple times to meet with the National Security Council and with the president of the United States. I have never seen that colonel, added Pace.

They made my point for me, responded Wilkerson. The decisions were not made in the principals' process, in the deputies' process, in the policy coordinating committee process. They were not made in the statutory process.

Wilkerson said his insights came from Powell walking through my door in April or March of 2004 and telling me to get everything I could get my hands on with regard to the detainee abuse issue - ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross] reporting, memoranda, open-source information and so forth - so that I could build some kind of story, some kind of audit trail so we could understand the chronology and we can understand how it developed.

While he acknowledged having no proof that the United States is torturing detainees, Wilkerson said, I can only assume that, when the vice president of the United States lobbies the Congress on behalf of cruel and unusual punishment and the need to be able to do that in order to get information out of potential terrorists... that it's still going on.

He said U.S. officials should realize they are involved in a war of ideas that cannot be advanced with torture.

In a war of ideas, you cannot damage your own ideas, your own position by seeming to do things that are in contradiction of your values, he said.

Rumsfeld told ABC that the military has overwhelmingly treated people humanely.

The history of the United States military is clear. Torture doesn't work. The military knows that. We want our people treated humanely, he said.

So torture is okay?
Sorry, don't watch TV. Homeland security - horse and pony show.........Our current govt is hiring people left and right, recruiting nonstop to hire people to protect our country. We will get attacked again. Can't blame anyone but the perps for that. It is what Obama will do about it that I am concerned with. Bush promised to get bin laden and invaded Iraq instead. Look at Katrina. Bush could not fix the knot in his own undershorts, let alone run a country. 
Torture is torture
Torture is wrong, no matter where it took place. Do you think God is going to look kindly on anyone torturing another human being...A.K.A. "Playing God"??
Now Mr. Pro-torture is scheduled
Cheney to raise funds for DeLay

The White House is not distancing itself from embattled former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), who is facing charges of breaking state campaign finance law.

Vice President Cheney is scheduled to appear at a December 5, Houston fundraiser on DeLay's behalf. Donors are being asked to contribute at least $500, according to an e-mail sent by the Fort Bend (Texas) Republican Party. Shannon Flaherty, DeLay's spokeswoman, confirmed details of the fundraiser.

For five years, Congressman DeLay has served as a key ally to pass the White House's agenda through Congress, and Ronnie Earle's political sideshow isn't going to get in the way of the real business at hand, said Flaherty. This event shows the Democrat strategy of avenging their ballot box losses with smear tactics and lawsuits is not going to work -- Republicans stick by their friends and don't back down from a fight.

DeLay was forced to step down from his leadership position in late September after Earle, the Travis County (Texas) district attorney, charged him with illegally directing corporate donations to Texas candidates. DeLay has asked that his trial be moved from Travis to Fort Bend County.

As of September 30, 2005, DeLay had $1.164 million in his warchest. Former Rep. Nick Lampson (D-Texas) is challenging DeLay for his seat.
Gitmo Torture
This will undoubtably shake some things up. If the detainees' trials cannot proceed because the "enhanced interrogation techniques" authorized by the Bush administration have tainted the process so much that prosecutors cannot proceed in some of their cases, what happens now?


"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

....

Crawford, 61, said the combination of the interrogation techniques, their duration and the impact on Qahtani's health led to her conclusion. "The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.
Torture and Oppression?
What kind of marshmallow life have you been living, my dear? Do you have any idea what some people go through in other parts of the world?

How can we help but laugh at you if you insist on making a fool of yourself?
Religulous torture....(sm)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.





The Washington Region Religious Campaign Against Torture rallied on Capitol Hill in March 2008.


More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.


White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.


The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small. " See results of the survey »


The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"


Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.


The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html#cnnSTCText


Obviously, "torture is torture".
The question is what constitutes torture. In my view, none of the techniques used, under the conditions in which they were used, constitute torture, including waterboarding.

I'd get into the notion of waterboarding as torture if we didn't do it to our own troops by way of training. That, to me, puts the tin hat on any idea that waterboarding constitutes torture.

This idea that interrogation should constitute nothing more severe than a game of "Simon Says" or "Mother May I?" suggests to me that we should bring back the draft and extend it to both sexes. There are too many people in this country who have never had to confront anything in this world more evil than their best friend running off with their boyfriend. They seem to think the world is made of gingerbread, and populated by Sunday School teachers. A stint in the military would open their eyes to reality.
If waterboarding isn't torture...(sm)
then why did we execute Japanese war criminals for waterboarding American POWs after WWII?  Maybe it's just considered torture when done to Americans?  You can't have it both ways. 
Definitely NOT by torture, If I were Obama I would probably know how!...nm
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O is not going to engage in torture. He does not
believe in torture.
Bush's and Cheney's way DID NOT WORK.

How can you say that I am naive, maybe you are. Who knows?

Time will tell.

I can only pray, hope and wish that O will be successful in protecting and promoting the United States of America.
No to torture ! This brings only hate and more war! ..nm
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No, you are wrong. Obama is against torture,
he does not want to go the same path like Bush and Cheney, the wrong path.

He wants to compromise and negotiate. He started already with Iran and Netanyahu. He snubbed Natanyahu and told him that Natanyahu has to accept and agree to a 2-state solution or there will most probably be war.

O is very, very smart and I pray to God that he will stay strong and prevail when even certain Americans wish him failure.
It proves the extent of the torture that was used...(sm)
as well as shows the public exactly what the last admin did.  It puts in front of the public (in particular republicans who would be against prosecuting the Bush admin) the facts.  I honestly think the main point of showing pics is to gain public support for the prosecution of the last admin.  I think dems are kind of fighting the battle before it gets there to make prosecution easier......but that's just my opinion.
yes, I agree, the torture was extreme, we just
got a 'glimpse' of it. But this is not the right time to expose it when the US troops are still in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Torture memos update
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31378360
They call "sleep deprivation" torture. Then I have
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torture,-if waterboarding can save thousands of
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Hmmm, didn't a lot of the torture start
after 9-11 which I recall being a horrible terrorist attack? At that time, maybe torture was the right thing to do to find Obama, sorry, I mean Osama.
We do not purposely kill, cut off heads, torture.
nm
Still not torture. Poilcemen TAZER our own citizens.
Heck, the 'resource officers' at my kid's high school tazed a kid for spitting in the commons area.

Maybe we should just taze the terrorists. I'll bet they'll talk then. When they start sh!tting themselves and going into convulsions, I'll bet they'll cough up whatever info they have.

Plus, it'll save on the Gitmo water bill, and I think we're ALL for that.

It must be hard for you to accept that even the DEMS voted to keep Gitmo going.

Hey, maybe the terrorits could all live at YOUR house. You guys seem to have a lot in common.
I hope that O will not have to torture wrong confessions out
of Muslim prisoners. He has a different strategy, talking, negotiating, compromising, CHANGE and WISDOM.
This thread started with waterboarding, torture or not?
Everybody is FREE to post one's opinion.

I NEVER STARTED being rude, maybe I REACTED rude.

The one who starts is the guilty one, even with insulting language. I dislike it immensely when people run out of ideas to defend their stance, the personal attacks, taken out of the blue, set in, like
'take your meds' or 'take your Xanax', or 'chill out.'

This puts them immediately into the loser position.

Or they become all of a sudden 'Grammar Nazis', because they run out of choices to prove their points, whereas these are mostly just TYPOS.

Or do you follow the Christian rule:

'If somebody slaps you on your right cheek, offer him also your left cheek.'

I NEVER understood this weird suggestion.
Torture memos update/correction...(sm)

First, please note that I never said that pics would be released in the OP, only redacted portions of the memos. (Presumably testimonies of the prisoners)  The previous thread about this turned into a debate about releasing pics, and I erroneously didn't catch and correct that.  My bad.


Update:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31334053


 


is it right to torture a prisoner to prove that he is innocent?..sm
More prisoners are tortured to death or drippled for life because they do not have anything to confess.
You can't spell or pick a winner; it's torture, not tortue
Keep chomping those sour grapes.
Sorry, JTBB, other countries use worse torture than what was stated here.

They starve, cut off fingers, hands, pull nails out, burn private parts, and decapitate prisoners in other countries.  Why do you call other people with their comments "nimrods?"


If you want to torture to stop, why don't you go to those countries and fight against their torture? No...you'd rather call the American people nimrods. What is it with you? You used to have thoughtful posts, but now all you do is spew hate for Americans that do not support your views.


You are becoming anti-American IMHO and its sad that you could let the present government blind you to everything. You're either a socialist, facist, or a communist without announcing it up front. You have absolutely made me furious with your one-sided posts since the election. I try not to read them, but sometimes I do get a good laugh at your outrageous statements.


 


Lets talk about the torture of our soldiers by our enemies
Electrocution, beatings, broken bones, etc, etc, oh and their favorite of all times....beheadings.

The witch hunt should end here. What happened, happened. It's done and your god is in their now. I may have not liked what went on in the last administration (reason why I voted them out), but there is no reason to burn Bush/Cheney at the stake. What the other side does is 100 times worse.
Oh I guess you would rather the rape rooms and torture rooms go back online

You extreme leftists don't follow a wild thought through to the end.  If you did you'd never post some of the stuff you pass off as coherent thought.  You would rather defend a murderous dictator, his sons, and his terrorist friends than even entertain the thought of supporting your president even if you think he's wrong.  You are really quite transparent about where your loyalties lie.  You want to see the U.S. crash and burn.  You are sucidal in your leftist loyalties.


You are not a liberal you are a wacko who has gone off the deep end and in need of serious help.