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Still not torture. Poilcemen TAZER our own citizens.

Posted By: ctmt on 2009-05-23
In Reply to: A little waterboarding anyone? - Just the big bad

Heck, the 'resource officers' at my kid's high school tazed a kid for spitting in the commons area.

Maybe we should just taze the terrorists. I'll bet they'll talk then. When they start sh!tting themselves and going into convulsions, I'll bet they'll cough up whatever info they have.

Plus, it'll save on the Gitmo water bill, and I think we're ALL for that.

It must be hard for you to accept that even the DEMS voted to keep Gitmo going.

Hey, maybe the terrorits could all live at YOUR house. You guys seem to have a lot in common.


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Bush signs torture ban but reserves right to torture






Boston.com

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Bush could bypass new torture ban


Waiver right is reserved



WASHINGTON -- When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.


After approving the bill last Friday, Bush issued a ''signing statement -- an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law -- declaring that he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.


''The executive branch shall construe [the law] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief, Bush wrote, adding that this approach ''will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President . . . of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.


Some legal specialists said yesterday that the president's signing statement, which was posted on the White House website but had gone unnoticed over the New Year's weekend, raises serious questions about whether he intends to follow the law.


A senior administration official, who spoke to a Globe reporter about the statement on condition of anonymity because he is not an official spokesman, said the president intended to reserve the right to use harsher methods in special situations involving national security.


''We are not going to ignore this law, the official said, noting that Bush, when signing laws, routinely issues signing statements saying he will construe them consistent with his own constitutional authority. ''We consider it a valid statute. We consider ourselves bound by the prohibition on cruel, unusual, and degrading treatment.


But, the official said, a situation could arise in which Bush may have to waive the law's restrictions to carry out his responsibilities to protect national security. He cited as an example a ''ticking time bomb scenario, in which a detainee is believed to have information that could prevent a planned terrorist attack.


''Of course the president has the obligation to follow this law, [but] he also has the obligation to defend and protect the country as the commander in chief, and he will have to square those two responsibilities in each case, the official added. ''We are not expecting that those two responsibilities will come into conflict, but it's possible that they will.


David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.


''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on.


Golove and other legal specialists compared the signing statement to Bush's decision, revealed last month, to bypass a 1978 law forbidding domestic wiretapping without a warrant. Bush authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans' international phone calls and e-mails without a court order starting after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.


The president and his aides argued that the Constitution gives the commander in chief the authority to bypass the 1978 law when necessary to protect national security. They also argued that Congress implicitly endorsed that power when it authorized the use of force against the perpetrators of the attacks.


Legal academics and human rights organizations said Bush's signing statement and his stance on the wiretapping law are part of a larger agenda that claims exclusive control of war-related matters for the executive branch and holds that any involvement by Congress or the courts should be minimal.


Vice President Dick Cheney recently told reporters, ''I believe in a strong, robust executive authority, and I think that the world we live in demands it. . . . I would argue that the actions that we've taken are totally appropriate and consistent with the constitutional authority of the president.


Since the 2001 attacks, the administration has also asserted the power to bypass domestic and international laws in deciding how to detain prisoners captured in the Afghanistan war. It also has claimed the power to hold any US citizen Bush designates an ''enemy combatant without charges or access to an attorney.


And in 2002, the administration drafted a secret legal memo holding that Bush could authorize interrogators to violate antitorture laws when necessary to protect national security. After the memo was leaked to the press, the administration eliminated the language from a subsequent version, but it never repudiated the idea that Bush could authorize officials to ignore a law.


The issue heated up again in January 2005. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales disclosed during his confirmation hearing that the administration believed that antitorture laws and treaties did not restrict interrogators at overseas prisons because the Constitution does not apply abroad.


In response, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, filed an amendment to a Defense Department bill explicitly saying that that the cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees in US custody is illegal regardless of where they are held.


McCain's office did not return calls seeking comment yesterday.


The White House tried hard to kill the McCain amendment. Cheney lobbied Congress to exempt the CIA from any interrogation limits, and Bush threatened to veto the bill, arguing that the executive branch has exclusive authority over war policy.


But after veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress approved it, Bush called a press conference with McCain, praised the measure, and said he would accept it.


Legal specialists said the president's signing statement called into question his comments at the press conference.


''The whole point of the McCain Amendment was to close every loophole, said Marty Lederman, a Georgetown University law professor who served in the Justice Department from 1997 to 2002. ''The president has re-opened the loophole by asserting the constitutional authority to act in violation of the statute where it would assist in the war on terrorism.


Elisa Massimino, Washington director for Human Rights Watch, called Bush's signing statement an ''in-your-face affront to both McCain and to Congress.


''The basic civics lesson that there are three co-equal branches of government that provide checks and balances on each other is being fundamentally rejected by this executive branch, she said.


''Congress is trying to flex its muscle to provide those checks [on detainee abuse], and it's being told through the signing statement that it's impotent. It's quite a radical view. src=http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_story_end_icon.gif



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© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
 












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Just look at what US citizens have been through
at stake in this election, not just for us, but the rest of the world. Everyone is on-edge, pissed-off, nervous, angry, fearful, hopeful, etc. You name it, the emotion is out there. It's likely that regardless of the outcome of this election, there will be protests and possibly violence by the losing side. So that's got me nervous, as well. Our entire governent needs a major overhaul & housecleaning.

Anyway, yes, your feelings are accurate, and have mainly to do with our fear for our futures. This election will essentially decide whether I my later years in a modest, (but at least HEATED!) apartment, with some food in the cupboards and a savings to draw on, or whether I spend those years living in a cardboard box underneath a freeway overpass.
Seasoned Citizens sm

To season a citizen you use a dash of salt and pepper, a pinch of Viagra (mycoxaflopin), and a fine sprinkling of "OxyFast."


Have been following the news about Pakistan.


We are all citizens of the world.
The sooner we realize this, the sooner we can put an end to war and try to do something to protect this planet before it self-destructs.
The Majority of Citizens?
Let's see tomorrow morning.
Like containing disorderly citizens? nm
x
my children are citizens
they were born in Germany yet they are US citizens and German citizens. They have dual citizenship.  they are US citizens and they have a born abroad certificate which is the proof of their US citizenship which is exactly the same as a b/c.  you guys crack me up.  and no i am not an O fan, but i think that this would have been the FIRST thing that McCain and Palin would have pointed out had all this crap been true. 
Yes, concerned citizens can be
nm
Yes, proposed changes, which citizens cant
nm
Law abiding citizens don't have anything to worry about...sm
Just the same way a warranted wire tap should not have any problems procuring a warrant. It's too bad you don't see the potential for corruption here(and accusations are already floating).

As far as phone companies passing out private info, you have to give consent for companies to share your private information with other companies legally. That's why we have Consumer Privacy Laws (or is this a thing of the past too? No, really is it?)


No, but Illinois citizens are so used to corrupt
even this guy has suddenly made them stand up and take notice...... what a sorry crook! He'd probably sell his mother for a buck.
There are many Muslim-Americans who are citizens of the US. (nm)
They are eligible to vote in the presidential election and are just as concerned about the important political issues as everyone else in this country!
Citizens are allowed to vote

with any motivation they wish - FOR someone, AGAINST someone, because they had soup for lunch, etc.  Supreme Court (hey there's a case someone can discuss) upheld same-day registration and voting.  Since they know the constitution and the law, I will trust their judgment.


The election system is OBVIOUSLY sound, because when Ohioans suggested that the Bush reelection count was rigged, they were denounced as conspiracy theorists.  One cannot have it both ways.


 


However, he did not believe that all citizens are equal under the law. Shame on ...sm
you likening BO to Hitler.
Sorry, but according to the law, anchor babies are US citizens - nm
x
Pop 8 was vote of MAJORITY of citizens who said NO...
--
And from Mr. Pro-torture
Powell Aide: Torture 'Guidance' from VP
CNN News

Monday 21 November 2005

Former staff chief says Cheney's 'flexibility' helped lead to abuse.
Retired U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, who served as former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, told CNN that the practice of torture may be continuing in U.S.-run facilities.

There's no question in my mind that we did. There's no question in my mind that we may be still doing it, Wilkerson said on CNN's Late Edition.

There's no question in my mind where the philosophical guidance and the flexibility in order to do so originated - in the vice president of the United States' office, he said. His implementer in this case was [Defense Secretary] Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department.

At another point in the interview, Wilkerson said the vice president had to cover this in order for it to happen and in order for Secretary Rumsfeld to feel as though he had freedom of action.

Traveling in Latin America earlier this month, President Bush defended U.S. treatment of prisoners, saying flatly, We do not torture. (Full story)

Cheney has lobbied against a measure in Congress that would outlaw cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners, calling for an exception for the CIA in cases that involve a detainee who may have knowledge of an imminent attack.

The amendment was included in a $491 billion Pentagon spending bill that declared 2006 to be a period of significant transition for Iraq. (Full story)

Proposed by Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, the amendment was approved in the Senate last month by a 90-9 vote. It was not included in the House version of the bill.

The White House has said that Bush would likely veto the bill if McCain's language is included, calling the amendment unnecessary and duplicative.

Rumsfeld told ABC's This Week on Sunday that the White House was in negotiations with the Senate over the amendment.

There's a discussion and debate taking place as to what the implications might be and what is supportable and what is not, he told the program. But the fact of the matter is the president from the outset has said that he required that there be humane treatment.

Cheney has come under mounting criticism for his position. Last week, Stansfield Turner, a military veteran who served as director of the CIA during the Carter administration, labeled him the vice president for torture. (Full story)

In a statement responding to Turner's remark, Cheney said his views are reflected in the administration's policy. Our country is at war and our government has an obligation to protect the American people from a brutal enemy that has declared war upon us.

We are aggressively finding terrorists and bringing them to justice and anything we do within this effort is within the law, the statement said, adding that the United States does not torture.

Rumsfeld Denies 'Cabal' Charge

Bush administration officials, including Rumsfeld and military officials, have denied that instances of torture were ever officially condoned. Some personnel accused of torture have been convicted and sentenced for prisoner abuse.

All the instructions I issued required humane treatment, Rumsfeld told ABC. Anything that was done that was not humane has been prosecuted.

But Wilkerson argued last month in a speech that Cheney and Rumsfeld formed a cabal that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

Wilkerson told CNN Sunday he does not know if the president was witting in this or not.

I voted for him twice, he said. I prefer to think that he was not.

Earlier, on the same CNN program, Rumsfeld dismissed as ridiculous the claim that he was involved in a cabal.

Rumsfeld and Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said they had no recollection of Wilkerson having attended meetings with Rumsfeld or Cheney.

In terms of having first-hand information, I just can't imagine that he does, said Rumsfeld. The allegation is ridiculous.

I was in every meeting with the joint chiefs. I was in every meeting with the combatant commanders. I went to the White House multiple times to meet with the National Security Council and with the president of the United States. I have never seen that colonel, added Pace.

They made my point for me, responded Wilkerson. The decisions were not made in the principals' process, in the deputies' process, in the policy coordinating committee process. They were not made in the statutory process.

Wilkerson said his insights came from Powell walking through my door in April or March of 2004 and telling me to get everything I could get my hands on with regard to the detainee abuse issue - ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross] reporting, memoranda, open-source information and so forth - so that I could build some kind of story, some kind of audit trail so we could understand the chronology and we can understand how it developed.

While he acknowledged having no proof that the United States is torturing detainees, Wilkerson said, I can only assume that, when the vice president of the United States lobbies the Congress on behalf of cruel and unusual punishment and the need to be able to do that in order to get information out of potential terrorists... that it's still going on.

He said U.S. officials should realize they are involved in a war of ideas that cannot be advanced with torture.

In a war of ideas, you cannot damage your own ideas, your own position by seeming to do things that are in contradiction of your values, he said.

Rumsfeld told ABC that the military has overwhelmingly treated people humanely.

The history of the United States military is clear. Torture doesn't work. The military knows that. We want our people treated humanely, he said.

So torture is okay?
Sorry, don't watch TV. Homeland security - horse and pony show.........Our current govt is hiring people left and right, recruiting nonstop to hire people to protect our country. We will get attacked again. Can't blame anyone but the perps for that. It is what Obama will do about it that I am concerned with. Bush promised to get bin laden and invaded Iraq instead. Look at Katrina. Bush could not fix the knot in his own undershorts, let alone run a country. 
Torture is torture
Torture is wrong, no matter where it took place. Do you think God is going to look kindly on anyone torturing another human being...A.K.A. "Playing God"??
I never said citizens weren't allowed to vote.

I just do not think that same day register and voting should be allowed.  That is my personal opinion and I have the right to have that opinion regardless on how a court ruled on the subject.


Shouldn't the citizens of Alaska take care of that
-
Anchor babies are natural citizens... sm
by virtue of being born on American soil, just as the babies of Chinese immigrants or German immigrants or any other nationality are citizens of this country if they are born on US soil. Granted, the influx of illegal aliens from Mexico has created a problem in that it has burdened the welfare system in this country, but that is not the issue here.

The issue is that Obama cannot produce proof that he is a natural born American citizen. The birth certificate floating around the internet purported to be real is a fake. You can find anything on the internet these days, true or not. Just the fact that liberals shoot down every article posted in support of a conservative's point of view as being "not a credible source" is proof of that.

Mr. Obama is well aware of the questions being raised concerning his birth certificate. If he had a REAL birth certificate, why would he just not produce it and put an end to all the speculation? Because he can't, plain and simple. He flew to Hawaii to see his ailing grandmother and "coincidentally" his "birth records" were sealed at the same time. Isn't that interesting?

Mr. Obama lived for 5 years in Indonesia, a country that does not recognize dual citizenship, therefore nullifying his American citizenship IF it ever existed in the first place. There are no records on file where he ever applied for citizenship after returning to the US.

We have to produce birth certificates for our children to attend school today. Why shouldn't the man who would be POTUS have to show his?

Barack Obama is not even legally a black American. He only has one black great-great-grandmother on his father's side while the other 7 were Arab.

That makes him 50% white, 43.75% Arab, and 6.25% black. 12.5% is the minimum required to legally claim any racial status in America.

Obama would qualify as the first Arab-American president, NOT the first black president. That is why they keep saying "African-American" and NOT black because they know he is African Arab and not African black.

Why would you want anyone who has any kind of questionable background leading our country? Would you allow persons of questionable background to teach your children in school? What if that person was suspected of having an inappropriate relationship with a child but it could not be proven? Would you want to run that risk?

I agree that America has more pressing problems that whether the man about to take the helm is a natural born citizen, but do you want someone who is not even an American leading us through these problems?

Because crabby, no matter how greedy the citizens are/were SM
It wasn't just the brokers or just the people who weren't as smart as you not to get an ARM, it was under the leadership of GW......! the lack of leadership. This is why I've called you uneducated, because the information out there about every issue under the sun is there if you care to educate yourself. It's ludicrous to say that someone earned $1500 a month and shouldn't have gotten a $300K mortgage. Your beloved Bush, is the one who PUSHED THROUGH THE ZERO DOWN PAYMENT,,, the worst idea ever.

You're really worried about your fellow citizens?
because if that were the case, you would be asking him why he continues to let illegals and overseas workers with visas into this country to take those very jobs they report are gone.

You don't know any of this is going on because you don't pay attention to anything unless Obama has said it. If he doesn't tell you illegals are taking these jobs, then you'll just pretend they are not. Sorry you don't feel illegals taking our jobs to the tune of 1.5 million right now isn't MORE important than spending more of your money.

Ever stop to think if they didn't have the jobs, Americans would?
That money will go overseas as long as U.S. citizens keep
xx
No they absolutely do NOT represent the citizens of this country
So pompous and self-righteous.

I think Bush's administration was the joke, since you asked. At least now we have someone intelligent and not self-absorbed.

I suffered through the abomination of the Bush administration in silence. You bet your sweet bippy I'm celebrating Obama's presidency and the return to power of the Democratic party. I hope to GOD I never see the likes of Dumbya as president again!!!
the children born here are automatically citizens -
At one point in time, if a mother and father were here illegally and a child was born, the father would be deported, but the mother could stay until the child was 18. I don't know if that has changed or not.
Now Mr. Pro-torture is scheduled
Cheney to raise funds for DeLay

The White House is not distancing itself from embattled former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), who is facing charges of breaking state campaign finance law.

Vice President Cheney is scheduled to appear at a December 5, Houston fundraiser on DeLay's behalf. Donors are being asked to contribute at least $500, according to an e-mail sent by the Fort Bend (Texas) Republican Party. Shannon Flaherty, DeLay's spokeswoman, confirmed details of the fundraiser.

For five years, Congressman DeLay has served as a key ally to pass the White House's agenda through Congress, and Ronnie Earle's political sideshow isn't going to get in the way of the real business at hand, said Flaherty. This event shows the Democrat strategy of avenging their ballot box losses with smear tactics and lawsuits is not going to work -- Republicans stick by their friends and don't back down from a fight.

DeLay was forced to step down from his leadership position in late September after Earle, the Travis County (Texas) district attorney, charged him with illegally directing corporate donations to Texas candidates. DeLay has asked that his trial be moved from Travis to Fort Bend County.

As of September 30, 2005, DeLay had $1.164 million in his warchest. Former Rep. Nick Lampson (D-Texas) is challenging DeLay for his seat.
Gitmo Torture
This will undoubtably shake some things up. If the detainees' trials cannot proceed because the "enhanced interrogation techniques" authorized by the Bush administration have tainted the process so much that prosecutors cannot proceed in some of their cases, what happens now?


"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

....

Crawford, 61, said the combination of the interrogation techniques, their duration and the impact on Qahtani's health led to her conclusion. "The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.
Torture and Oppression?
What kind of marshmallow life have you been living, my dear? Do you have any idea what some people go through in other parts of the world?

How can we help but laugh at you if you insist on making a fool of yourself?
Religulous torture....(sm)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.





The Washington Region Religious Campaign Against Torture rallied on Capitol Hill in March 2008.


More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.


White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.


The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small. " See results of the survey »


The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"


Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.


The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html#cnnSTCText


Obviously, "torture is torture".
The question is what constitutes torture. In my view, none of the techniques used, under the conditions in which they were used, constitute torture, including waterboarding.

I'd get into the notion of waterboarding as torture if we didn't do it to our own troops by way of training. That, to me, puts the tin hat on any idea that waterboarding constitutes torture.

This idea that interrogation should constitute nothing more severe than a game of "Simon Says" or "Mother May I?" suggests to me that we should bring back the draft and extend it to both sexes. There are too many people in this country who have never had to confront anything in this world more evil than their best friend running off with their boyfriend. They seem to think the world is made of gingerbread, and populated by Sunday School teachers. A stint in the military would open their eyes to reality.
If waterboarding isn't torture...(sm)
then why did we execute Japanese war criminals for waterboarding American POWs after WWII?  Maybe it's just considered torture when done to Americans?  You can't have it both ways. 
Definitely NOT by torture, If I were Obama I would probably know how!...nm
nm
O is not going to engage in torture. He does not
believe in torture.
Bush's and Cheney's way DID NOT WORK.

How can you say that I am naive, maybe you are. Who knows?

Time will tell.

I can only pray, hope and wish that O will be successful in protecting and promoting the United States of America.
Those things are citizens exercising free speech,
The world they have been living in under the Patriot Act has pushed them into dark corners underground. They are the ones who ended up on the wrong side of that line in the and Bush drew after 911 when he said, "you are either for us or against us."

They all work, just like you and me, but sacrifice greatly for their activism. If you think the coverage you are getting about who they are, what they are saying or where they come from is fair, you are the one who is living on another planet. You skipped the part about police sweeping up reporters and bystanders, beating them up while hosing them down and dragging them away.

Take a look back into history some 30-40 years ago. These same "things" were the guys who marched and protested on behalf of civil rights for blacks and women and against the last wrong war were had. Yesterday's "things, today's authors, senators, congressmen, journalists, etc.

You must have been born AFTER their struggles bore fruit. Otherwise, you would not be so glib and would have no need to ask such inane questions.
No to torture ! This brings only hate and more war! ..nm
nm
NO to torture. YES to tough interrogations!
nm
No, you are wrong. Obama is against torture,
he does not want to go the same path like Bush and Cheney, the wrong path.

He wants to compromise and negotiate. He started already with Iran and Netanyahu. He snubbed Natanyahu and told him that Natanyahu has to accept and agree to a 2-state solution or there will most probably be war.

O is very, very smart and I pray to God that he will stay strong and prevail when even certain Americans wish him failure.
It proves the extent of the torture that was used...(sm)
as well as shows the public exactly what the last admin did.  It puts in front of the public (in particular republicans who would be against prosecuting the Bush admin) the facts.  I honestly think the main point of showing pics is to gain public support for the prosecution of the last admin.  I think dems are kind of fighting the battle before it gets there to make prosecution easier......but that's just my opinion.
yes, I agree, the torture was extreme, we just
got a 'glimpse' of it. But this is not the right time to expose it when the US troops are still in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Torture memos update
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31378360
Air Force chief: Test weapons on US citizens before using on enemies.





Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs




WASHINGTON (AP) -- Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.


The object is basically public relations. Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations, said Secretary Michael Wynne.


If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation, said Wynne. (Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press.


The Air Force has paid for research into nonlethal weapons, but he said the service is unlikely to spend more money on development until injury problems are reviewed by medical experts and resolved.


Nonlethal weapons generally can weaken people if they are hit with the beam. Some of the weapons can emit short, intense energy pulses that also can be effective in disabling some electronic devices.


On another subject, Wynne said he expects to choose a new contractor for the next generation aerial refueling tankers by next summer. He said a draft request for bids will be put out next month, and there are two qualified bidders: the Boeing Co. and a team of Northrop Grumman Corp. and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., the majority owner of European jet maker Airbus SAS.


The contract is expected to be worth at least $20 billion (&euro15.75 billion).


Chicago, Illinois-based Boeing lost the tanker deal in 2004 amid revelations that it had hired a top Air Force acquisitions official who had given the company preferential treatment.


Wynne also said the Air Force, which is already chopping 40,000 active duty, civilian and reserves jobs, is now struggling to find new ways to slash about $1.8 billion (&euro1.4 billion) from its budget to cover costs from the latest round of base closings.


He said he can't cut more people, and it would not be wise to take funding from military programs that are needed to protect the country. But he said he also incurs resistance when he tries to save money on operations and maintenance by retiring aging aircraft.


We're finding out that those are, unfortunately, prized possessions of some congressional districts, said Wynne, adding that the Air Force will have to take some appetite suppressant pills. He said he has asked employees to look for efficiencies in their offices.


The base closings initially were expected to create savings by reducing Air Force infrastructure by 24 percent.












 
 







 
Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index.html

They call "sleep deprivation" torture. Then I have
nm
torture,-if waterboarding can save thousands of
nm
Hmmm, didn't a lot of the torture start
after 9-11 which I recall being a horrible terrorist attack? At that time, maybe torture was the right thing to do to find Obama, sorry, I mean Osama.
We do not purposely kill, cut off heads, torture.
nm
I hope that O will not have to torture wrong confessions out
of Muslim prisoners. He has a different strategy, talking, negotiating, compromising, CHANGE and WISDOM.
This thread started with waterboarding, torture or not?
Everybody is FREE to post one's opinion.

I NEVER STARTED being rude, maybe I REACTED rude.

The one who starts is the guilty one, even with insulting language. I dislike it immensely when people run out of ideas to defend their stance, the personal attacks, taken out of the blue, set in, like
'take your meds' or 'take your Xanax', or 'chill out.'

This puts them immediately into the loser position.

Or they become all of a sudden 'Grammar Nazis', because they run out of choices to prove their points, whereas these are mostly just TYPOS.

Or do you follow the Christian rule:

'If somebody slaps you on your right cheek, offer him also your left cheek.'

I NEVER understood this weird suggestion.
Torture memos update/correction...(sm)

First, please note that I never said that pics would be released in the OP, only redacted portions of the memos. (Presumably testimonies of the prisoners)  The previous thread about this turned into a debate about releasing pics, and I erroneously didn't catch and correct that.  My bad.


Update:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31334053


 


is it right to torture a prisoner to prove that he is innocent?..sm
More prisoners are tortured to death or drippled for life because they do not have anything to confess.