Maybe Palin didn't know yet that her daughter was pregnant when

• novelty VP choices always lose - bounder
  • Palin is substance, if that's what you're referring to! - nm
  • I was an unwed mother with a republican mom. - Not so "kindly disposed" to SP's decision
    • First of all, I am very sorry you have had to go through what you went through... - sam
      • Do not patronize. Bristol has no real voice here. - It's not just about SP or the family. sm
        • I love how you all think you know what this girl is thinking. - Even calling her by first name. sm
          • I agree! No one knows their family dynamics .. - Myna Bird
          • Using her name humanizes her. She IS a real person... - sam
            • Of course she's a real person. My point is that no one here knows her - personal thoughts on the matter. sm
              • Yes....I was only replying to the part about using her name.... - sam
                • Agree; OBama's handling of this was excellent. - Myna Bird
                  • I know.....kind of a silly statement on its face... - sam
        • and every post like this rains on Obama's.... - sam
          • Don't you wish? You cant touch him - RNC doomed from the get go. sm
            • Where are all those snappy comebacks? - nm
              • Maybe you are not worth the time - :) nm.
                • And maybe you can't come up with - Answers to the talking points.
                  • As if you would listen. I might as well - talk to a brick wall. nm
                    • Still slamming instead of addressing post content. - Leaves you speechless, but not slamless. nm
                      • What content? All I see is more Repub vs. Dem bashing. - Show me your content. nm
          • This is all so ridiculous, seriously. - Kiki
            • another way of looking at it ... maybe, just maybe ... - Myna Bird
              • The 50s-60s poster was talking about - SP showcasing Bristols privacy, not stigma. nm
                • there is for their family to decide ... and .. - Myna Bird
                  • What they want is to be able to bash McCain, bash Bush, and bash Palin... - sam
                  • What issues. Endless rounds of Pro-Life and BL Theology post? - It took months for that crud to disappear.
                    • Case in point. Complete intolerance for any view other than their own. - sam
                  • oops == There should be "This" sorry nm - Myna Bird
            • I think they had a family discussion ... - sam
              • Nothing in my post said anything about - Kiki
                • Maybe Palin didn't know yet that her daughter was pregnant when - she accepted. Has it said how long they've know
                  • John McCain knew when he announced - FYI
                  • article, I think on Yahoo, said it was the first thing ... - Myna Bird
              • The unwed mother above whose life - was touched is not on that same page. nm
            • She could have just said no. - She didn't, and who will pay the price now?
      • First of all, only someone who is totally ignorant would suggest...sm - oldtimer
        • Preacher of personal responsibility: When do - Your leaders have to be held accountable? nm
          • Why do all of a sudden want to hold leaders accountable? - sam
            • is there a subj in that sentence? - Sandy
              • Yes, madam QA.....I will be sure I do so in the future... - sam
            • Not interested in taking this off task. - The question is directed to pubs about pubs. nm
        • Ignorant or not...many did suggest that the child was hers... - sam
        • Predictably, the right is lining up to try in vain - To lay blame on the left. see message
          • So you're saying the left controls the media? I thought the media produced the story. - The media to blame, how is that the left? sm
          • We were talking this board, I thought.... - sam
            • Pales in comparison to the hurtful posts - and portrayals from your own hand.
              • I know why I was under attack...it is the nature of the dems on this board... - sam
          • The left does it all the time. - Don't act innocent. nm
            • Do you have an answer for the inside post - Or just a slam for the introduction?
    • thanks for your story - bounder
      • Perhaps she would not have been forced into making it public... - sam
        • Being forced to own up. Not impressive. - Putting her political ambitions above Bristol. In
          • Lying about a 16-year-old...less impressive. - sam
            • Putting her political ambitions above Bistol - Inexscusible. Dodging issues, impotent.
              • Attacking a family over personal issues... - sam
                • Assessing sincerity vs hypocrisy of - Family values candidates, perfectly letigimate.
                  • In your world....thank God not in mine. nm - sam
                    • Voters do this when candidates spout fvalues. - Media too...at least in the real world. nm
                      • So you are saying now that they have NO family values because their... - sam
                        • No, you are. I'm saying judgments will be made - On how well she represents FV platform. sm
                          • I do not think there will be anything negative from family values voters... - sam
                            • I have a soon to be 9-year-old daughter and - the Republican acceptance of a teenage
                              • Good luck with your daughter! sm - Myna Bird
                              • And how do you feel about abortion? - sam
                                • I think it is a woman's right to choose. - NM
                                  • Ok....certainly your right! Was interested... - sam
  • THere is a first time for everything. :) - sam

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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/30/121350/137/486/580223

Have you ever been pregnant and seen your baby on ultrasound?  Have you seen him or her breathe the amntiotic fluid?  Watched him or her suck their thumb?  Or felt hiccups?   How about kick and roll? 

Oh, no, that's right, it's just a bunch of tissue. 

teenager?  Good golly, how many calamities will Mrs. Palin ignore in her own house.  I don't want somewhat like that as a heartbeat from running my country.

her Master degree in business.   She has a beautiful little 4-year-old son born in wedlock. I a progressive politically.  Boggles the mind doesn't it.

did a study group at home but couldn't accommodate parking without bothering her neighbors, then she needs to get her behind out and go to a library or something.

I'm not saying that it's the neighbor's fault.  At this point what all of us know about this case is speculation, and that amounts to squat.  So at this point we don't know if they just had mean neighbors, or if the couple was in a war with the neighbors, or if it was or wasn't a hit against christianity, or about 100 other things that could have played into it.  That is the point of my post....to point out that this could be the result of a lot of things, not necessarily just to get at christians.  I think way too much has been assumed in this thread about the situation.

I mentioned nothing of her political opinions or what she "thinks." I merely said I baby-sit for her occasionally and use her computer.  for you to try to drag her into your accusations is typical of what I have seen happen on the other board.  It's inflammatory and untrue, but it's how you people seem to create your "facts." I can assure you that my daughter has her own political opinions, and she and I don't always agree, unlike you, but we at least respect each other's right to their opinion and often have respectable, interesting, informative debates with each other.  She was taught respect and learned it very well. You can't hold a candle to the intelligent, respectful young lady that she is, so don't even try because you're way out of your league. As far as going back to the conservative board, thanks, but no thanks. I've already explained my reasons for not going back there any more. People are much more respectful of differing opinions on this board.

My post to gt was simply to tell her that I understand what it's like to be accused of all sorts of things simply because you post on a board.  It happened to me on the conservative board on my first (and last) visit there, which is why I won't return.

Do I think some of the things gt said were over the top?  I sure do.  Do I understand why she said them?  My guess is that she was trying to communicate with you in the only way you seem to understand, since civil attempts don't seem to work with some of you people.  I think I can "understand" her motives, just like some of you "understand" why Eric Rudolph murdered innocent people. And between the two, I'd much rather try to "understand" gt than "Eric" (as he appears to be affectionately referred to elsewhere on this board).

his own personal reasons.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050620/why_george_went_to_war.php

The Downing Street memos have brought into focus an essential question: on what basis did President George W. Bush decide to invade Iraq? The memos are a government-level confirmation of what has been long believed by so many: that the administration was hell-bent on invading Iraq and was simply looking for justification, valid or not.

Despite such mounting evidence, Bush resolutely maintains total denial. In fact, when a British reporter asked the president recently about the Downing Street documents, Bush painted himself as a reluctant warrior. "Both of us didn't want to use our military," he said, answering for himself and British Prime Minister Blair. "Nobody wants to commit military into combat. It's the last option."

Yet there's evidence that Bush not only deliberately relied on false intelligence to justify an attack, but that he would have willingly used any excuse at all to invade Iraq. And that he was obsessed with the notion well before 9/11—indeed, even before he became president in early 2001.

In interviews I conducted last fall, a well-known journalist, biographer and Bush family friend who worked for a time with Bush on a ghostwritten memoir said that an Iraq war was always on Bush's brain.

"He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999," said author and Houston Chronicle journalist Mickey Herskowitz. "It was on his mind. He said, 'One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.' And he said, 'My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.' He went on, 'If I have a chance to invade…, if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency.'"

Bush apparently accepted a view that Herskowitz, with his long experience of writing books with top Republicans, says was a common sentiment: that no president could be considered truly successful without one military "win" under his belt. Leading Republicans had long been enthralled by the effect of the minuscule Falklands War on British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's popularity, and ridiculed Democrats such as Jimmy Carter who were reluctant to use American force. Indeed, both Reagan and Bush's father successfully prosecuted limited invasions (Grenada, Panama and the Gulf War) without miring the United States in endless conflicts.

Herskowitz's revelations illuminate Bush's personal motivation for invading Iraq and, more importantly, his general inclination to use war to advance his domestic political ends. Furthermore, they establish that this thinking predated 9/11, predated his election to the presidency and predated his appointment of leading neoconservatives who had their own, separate, more complex geopolitical rationale for supporting an invasion.

Conversations With Bush The Candidate

Herskowitz—a longtime Houston newspaper columnist—has ghostwritten or co-authored autobiographies of a broad spectrum of famous people, including Reagan adviser Michael Deaver, Mickey Mantle, Dan Rather and Nixon cabinet secretary John B. Connally. Bush's 1999 comments to Herskowitz were made over the course of as many as 20 sessions together. Eventually, campaign staffers—expressing concern about things Bush had told the author that were included in the manuscript—pulled the project, and Bush campaign officials came to Herskowitz's house and took his original tapes and notes. Bush communications director Karen Hughes then assumed responsibility for the project, which was published in highly sanitized form as A Charge to Keep.

The revelations about Bush's attitude toward Iraq emerged during two taped sessions I held with Herskowitz. These conversations covered a variety of matters, including the journalist's continued closeness with the Bush family and fondness for Bush Senior—who clearly trusted Herskowitz enough to arrange for him to pen a subsequent authorized biography of Bush's grandfather, written and published in 2003.

I conducted those interviews last fall and published an article based on them during the final heated days of the 2004 campaign. Herskowitz's taped insights were verified to the satisfaction of editors at the Houston Chronicle, yet the story failed to gain broad mainstream coverage, primarily because news organization executives expressed concern about introducing such potent news so close to the election. Editors told me they worried about a huge backlash from the White House and charges of an "October Surprise."

Debating The Timeline For War

But today, as public doubts over the Iraq invasion grow, and with the Downing Street papers adding substance to those doubts, the Herskowitz interviews assume singular importance by providing profound insight into what motivated Bush—personally—in the days and weeks following 9/11. Those interviews introduce us to a George W. Bush, who, until 9/11, had no means for becoming "a great president"—because he had no easy path to war. Once handed the national tragedy of 9/11, Bush realized that the Afghanistan campaign and the covert war against terrorist organizations would not satisfy his ambitions for greatness. Thus, Bush shifted focus from Al Qaeda, perpetrator of the attacks on New York and Washington. Instead, he concentrated on ensuring his place in American history by going after a globally reviled and easily targeted state run by a ruthless dictator.

The Herskowitz interviews add an important dimension to our understanding of this presidency, especially in combination with further evidence that Bush's focus on Iraq was motivated by something other than credible intelligence. In their published accounts of the period between 9/11 and the March 2003 invasion, former White House Counterterrorism Coordinator Richard Clarke and journalist Bob Woodward both describe a president single-mindedly obsessed with Iraq. The first anecdote takes place the day after the World Trade Center collapsed, in the Situation Room of the White House. The witness is Richard Clarke, and the situation is captured in his book, Against All Enemies.

On September 12th, I left the Video Conferencing Center and there, wandering alone around the Situation Room, was the President. He looked like he wanted something to do. He grabbed a few of us and closed the door to the conference room. "Look," he told us, "I know you have a lot to do and all…but I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this. See if he's linked in any way…"

I was once again taken aback, incredulous, and it showed. "But, Mr. President, Al Qaeda did this."

"I know, I know, but…see if Saddam was involved. Just look. I want to know any shred…" …

"Look into Iraq, Saddam," the President said testily and left us. Lisa Gordon-Hagerty stared after him with her mouth hanging open.

Similarly, Bob Woodward, in a CBS News 60 Minutes interview about his book, Bush At War, captures a moment, on November 21, 2001, where the president expresses an acute sense of urgency that it is time to secretly plan the war with Iraq. Again, we know there was nothing in the way of credible intelligence to precipitate the president's actions.

Woodward: "President Bush, after a National Security Council meeting, takes Don Rumsfeld aside, collars him physically and takes him into a little cubbyhole room and closes the door and says, 'What have you got in terms of plans for Iraq? What is the status of the war plan? I want you to get on it. I want you to keep it secret.'"

Wallace (voiceover): Woodward says immediately after that, Rumsfeld told Gen. Tommy Franks to develop a war plan to invade Iraq and remove Saddam—and that Rumsfeld gave Franks a blank check.

Woodward: "Rumsfeld and Franks work out a deal essentially where Franks can spend any money he needs. And so he starts building runways and pipelines and doing all the necessary preparations in Kuwait specifically to make war possible."

Bush wanted a war so that he could build the political capital necessary to achieve his domestic agenda and become, in his mind, "a great president." Blair and the members of his cabinet, unaware of the Herskowitz conversations, placed Bush's decision to mount an invasion in or about July of 2002. But for Bush, the question that summer was not whether, it was only how and when. The most important question, why, was left for later.

Eventually, there would be a succession of answers to that question: weapons of mass destruction, links to Al Qaeda, the promotion of democracy, the domino theory of the Middle East. But none of them have been as convincing as the reason George W. Bush gave way back in the summer of 1999.

accused Hillary of whining when she protested.  Talk about unity among women.